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What's the Call?


Waco Jim

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AT our local match this past weekend one stage had an optional bonus target which required a reload of the rifle with one round, "On the Clock." Stage description for rifle was: "10+ and held in hands with muzzle towards the target." Start standing, bla, bla, bla, holding rifle and when ready say the line. One shooter held the rifle, with one hand and the other hand was touching cartridges which were still in the loop, but touching them never the less. The TO started the shooter like this and the shooter after the beep, pulled the round and loaded the rifle and then engaged the targets. there was no call made and the score was recorded as shot.

 

There was a discussion later in the day between a couple of shooters and and one opinion was that the Stage Conventions were violated and some sort of penalty should have been awarded. This is all after the fact and I'm curious. The only thing I could find on this was R0-1 page 13 #5, which states: "Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand."

 

My question is, was this an illegal move and if so under what rule and what is the penalty, if any.

 

Waco

 

 

 

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AT our local match this past weekend one stage had an optional bonus target which required a reload of the rifle with one round, "On the Clock." Stage description for rifle was: "10+ and held in hands with muzzle towards the target." Start standing, bla, bla, bla, holding rifle and when ready say the line. One shooter held the rifle, with one hand and the other hand was touching cartridges which were still in the loop, but touching them never the less. The TO started the shooter like this and the shooter after the beep, pulled the round and loaded the rifle and then engaged the targets. there was no call made and the score was recorded as shot.

 

There was a discussion later in the day between a couple of shooters and and one opinion was that the Stage Conventions were violated and some sort of penalty should have been awarded. This is all after the fact and I'm curious. The only thing I could find on this was R0-1 page 13 #5, which states: "Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand."

 

My question is, was this an illegal move and if so under what rule and what is the penalty, if any.

 

Waco

 

 

 

If the instructions literally read "hands"....that's plural and so the TO started him in a faulted position. I've read some that said "rifle in hand" before....just what exactly did the stages instructions say....singular or plural? If it was singular I can see an argument being made for allowing the shooter to start in that position but then I'd have to raise a safety concern....did the shooter have good muzzle control holding the loaded rifle with only one hand.

 

Kajun

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he was touching his ammo without being told he culd do so in the stage description? P,

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I would tend to agree that hands means both hands as well.

 

But look at the RO 2 manual page 6

It is the duty of the CRO/Timer Operator to ensure the shooter begins at the correct
location (e.g. “behind the fence”) on the stage, and in the correct starting position / stance
(e.g. “hands at high surrender”)
It could be argued that if only one hand on the rifle was not correct, that the TO started him in a faulty position and that the shooter would then have an argument for a reshoot.
Stages with an optional or mandatory reload are better written to indicate when that reload may be made just to keep things clear to everyone. Myself I'd write it as 'after rifle targets have been engaged, reload one round and engage the bonus target' or something to that effect. Allowing a reload at any time muddys the water IMO.
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Wow...really?

 

Where did anyone get the idea that the way he...or she...was starting was okay?????

 

Unless something is missing in the description of the state, like "and it perfectly wonderful if you would like to start with one had touching your ammo" :mellow:

 

I'd be a little embarrassed starting like that...and a little embarrassed if I started anyone like that.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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From page 6 of the RO I manual -

 

The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location.

 

Although there is no discussion which follows in the rules as to the penalty to award if the shooter does start from an improper position, the interpretation which I have seen is that the score is discarded and a reshoot is awarded (carrying safety penalties forward), if the shooter did indeed start in an illegal position.

 

One hand off of the rifle and touching the ammunition would, in my opinion, be an improper starting position if the instructions clearly stated "rifle in hands." And not a violation if instructions said "rifle in hand."

 

This is one of those things the TO needs to verify before starting the shooter.

 

Good luck, GJ

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From page 6 of the RO I manual -

 

Although there is no discussion which follows in the rules as to the penalty to award if the shooter does start from an improper position, the interpretation which I have seen is that the score is discarded and a reshoot is awarded (carrying safety penalties forward), if the shooter did indeed start in an illegal position.

 

One hand off of the rifle and touching the ammunition would, in my opinion, be an improper starting position if the instructions clearly stated "rifle in hands." And not a violation if instructions said "rifle in hand."

 

This is one of those things the TO needs to verify before starting the shooter.

 

Good luck, GJ

But what about the Stage Conventions?

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But what about the Stage Conventions?

If it is convention 5, then we must have a different view of what "in hand" means. "In hand" to me conveys control of the object, as we use "in hand" with respect to guns, so I believe we should with ammo. Touching does not seem to be "in hand" - maybe that's just me, though.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I think rifle in hand or hands is the same thing. IMHO I hate that we always go down this path. Rifle in hand(S) was brought in to clear up port arms (that really didn't need clearing up) and now folks are going to "interrupt" rifle in hands........lol.

 

Where does it stop.......? I guess we will have to give a detailed start position for every stage and/or get lawyered up!

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If it is convention 5, then we must have a different view of what "in hand" means. "In hand" to me conveys control of the object, as we use "in hand" with respect to guns, so I believe we should with ammo. Touching does not seem to be "in hand" - maybe that's just me, though.

 

Good luck, GJ

I agree...I think...that "in hand" and "in hands" really mean the same thing.

 

I also believe that Convention 5 applies to touching as well as having ammo actually within your hand...completely or partially.

 

Phantom

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I look at it like this.

Words have meaning. So does that little s on the end of some words.

 

Stage writers need to think about that stuff when they write them. OK. For me and others

Rifle in hand. I would put both hands on it.

BUT.

You got folks like the one here that are looking for everything. SO. Just add a S on the end if that

is what you want.

That way there is no question. There how hard was it to add that S?

 

Also agree with Phantom that even holding onto the ammo in the belt without it being

written earns him a P also.

 

But for some. Think it is just easier to put a S on the end of hand to take away any question about it.

That way when someone asks.

You can just point to "Rifle in HANDS" so they have no more questions about it.

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So is there a consensus? If stage instructions had said, "Held in Hand" and not "Held in Hands" all would be good? It would seem to me that ammunition was carried to the line "On the Person" meaning in the cartridge loops. Ammunition remained in the cartridge loops and not in the hand until the beep. So it seems the hand position is the issue with some of you pards. I just can't get my head around cartridges still in the loops to be defined as "In Hand."

 

Waco

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So is there a consensus? If stage instructions had said, "Held in Hand" and not "Held in Hands" all would be good? It would seem to me that ammunition was carried to the line "On the Person" meaning in the cartridge loops. Ammunition remained in the cartridge loops and not in the hand until the beep. So it seems the hand position is the issue with some of you pards. I just can't get my head around cartridges still in the loops to be defined as "In Hand."

 

Waco

 

I am with phantom on that part.

Still would not have let him start with his hand on the ammo.

Think he earned a P on that also.

 

And will unless Palewolf says otherwise.

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A revolver still in holster, until the contact is broken with the holster, is just being touched, not "in hand."

 

A revolver lying on a staging table, until contact is broken with the table, is just being touched, not "in hand."

 

Why would ammo, just being touched and still in contact with it's supporting ammunition loop, be "in hand"?

 

Ammo is that much different than a firearm?

 

Good luck with that one, GJ

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A revolver still in holster, until the contact is broken with the holster, is just being touched, not "in hand."

 

A revolver lying on a staging table, until contact is broken with the table, is just being touched, not "in hand."

 

Why would ammo, just being touched and still in contact with it's supporting ammunition loop, be "in hand"?

 

Ammo is that much different than a firearm?

 

Good luck with that one, GJ

 

 

You do make a point.

And I am sure that is what the shooter would say also.

 

That to me is why if you don't want them to do it. Just add the s.

Takes away in question.

Kind of look forward to hearing from PaleWolf.

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So is there a consensus? If stage instructions had said, "Held in Hand" and not "Held in Hands" all would be good? It would seem to me that ammunition was carried to the line "On the Person" meaning in the cartridge loops. Ammunition remained in the cartridge loops and not in the hand until the beep. So it seems the hand position is the issue with some of you pards. I just can't get my head around cartridges still in the loops to be defined as "In Hand."

 

Waco

Not as far as I'm concerned.

 

Touching ammo is too me "in hand".

 

And NO, I don't think there needs to be an "S" for the starting position that this shooter took to be wrong.

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

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Looking at the other part of this action taken by the shooter I just spent a fair bit of time trying to find an old post on the 10 + 1 rounds issue which was covered at length and I had no luck finding it. The exact wording of the stage instructions are very important BUT I recall the result on that previous post on the proper action for a reload of 10 +1 is the 10 rounds must be fired first THEN make the reload. It's a "P"

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The ROII manual says "It is the duty of the CRO/Timer Operator to ensure the shooter begins at the correct location (e.g. “behind the fence”) on the stage, and in the correct starting position / stance (e.g. “hands at high surrender”) Watch to see if the shooter stages their guns and ammo as required. Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s) or location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under the clock."

 

From my perspective this shooter failed to stage the gun in the designated position i.e.: in both hands. The TO had a duty to correct this and didn't, however the manual clearly states failure to stage correctly is the fault of the competitor and earns a P. I would ask the TO to pay closer attention, while realizing it's a thankless job and mistakes happen. The ultimate responsibility clearly lies with the shooter.

 

So, as I interpret this it isn't a question of whether the ammo was in hand, but whether the rifle was in hands.

 

It wasn't so the shooter gets a P.

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I would tend to agree that hands means both hands as well.

 

But look at the RO 2 manual page 6

It is the duty of the CRO/Timer Operator to ensure the shooter begins at the correct
location (e.g. “behind the fence”) on the stage, and in the correct starting position / stance
(e.g. “hands at high surrender”)
It could be argued that if only one hand on the rifle was not correct, that the TO started him in a faulty position and that the shooter would then have an argument for a reshoot.
Stages with an optional or mandatory reload are better written to indicate when that reload may be made just to keep things clear to everyone. Myself I'd write it as 'after rifle targets have been engaged, reload one round and engage the bonus target' or something to that effect. Allowing a reload at any time muddys the water IMO.

 

+1 Makes it real clear, do not load until gun is empty.

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I may be wrong at other places, but at MY matches I agree with Phantom as to the meaning of the wording. As for the call: I would offer the shooter the option of either a reshoot or a "P". Reshoot because the TO started the shooter in a faulted position, or a "P" because the shooter failed to follow stage instructions.

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Looking at the other part of this action taken by the shooter I just spent a fair bit of time trying to find an old post on the 10 + 1 rounds issue which was covered at length and I had no luck finding it. The exact wording of the stage instructions are very important BUT I recall the result on that previous post on the proper action for a reload of 10 +1 is the 10 rounds must be fired first THEN make the reload. It's a "P"

I would agree if the stage instructions said that, with no other info it seems the shooter could load the 11th round before he fired first round. He should not have been touching his ammo tho IMHO, but exact wording is important.

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Shooter did not have both handS on the rifle.. earned himself a "P"

That's what the stage description said to do...

 

As far as the round is concerned to me....

 

If he had started with both hands on the rifle (he didn't tho)

and then grabbed the extra round and loaded it (on the clock)

Before the rifle sequence had started.. no call...

but he didn't....

he had A hand on the rifle

and A hand on ammo

He earned a P

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' that sounds right.. :wacko:

 

Rance

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Until the actual stage description is posted this is moot. Did it say in hand or in hands? We say in hand or in both hands, not, generally, in hands.

The stage description overrides the stage covenants, and always will/do, so the "hands touching the ammo" is also moot.

IF the description said in hands, then yes, P for not starting as described.

IF the description said in hand, then no P and no violation of the "covenants".

Sometimes the descriptions say hands on pistols. This position allows the shooter to "touch" reload ammo and shotgun ammo on the belt. Do we punish them as well.

As for when to reload, if the description says shoot ten then reload, then that's what you do. If the description says with the reloaded round shoot thus and such, any time you can reload is good.

Come on folks. Let's talk about nascar.

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Reloads need to be REAL clear. Pistol reloads are the same, when the reload must be made, does stage writer require a piece of empty brass be ejected to load a reload round, if more than one reload, what can the shooter do on the move, etc. Pistol reloads must be made in a manner to not break the 170. A lot of folks put their barrel straight up to more easily empty their pistols. Pistols that must be at half cock to load, are likely more at risk for an AD when reloading faster than normal on the clock, etc.

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At stage start, can the shooter have one hand fully on the gun and the second hand on the butt of the stock and the rounds at the same time, so for example he can keep looking down range at the targets while loading-appies to both rifle and shotgun?

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Until the actual stage description is posted this is moot. Did it say in hand or in hands? We say in hand or in both hands, not, generally, in hands.

The stage description overrides the stage covenants, and always will/do, so the "hands touching the ammo" is also moot.

IF the description said in hands, then yes, P for not starting as described.

IF the description said in hand, then no P and no violation of the "covenants".

Sometimes the descriptions say hands on pistols. This position allows the shooter to "touch" reload ammo and shotgun ammo on the belt. Do we punish them as well.

As for when to reload, if the description says shoot ten then reload, then that's what you do. If the description says with the reloaded round shoot thus and such, any time you can reload is good.

Come on folks. Let's talk about nascar.

The OP says in post number 1 that stage directions call for the rifle was to be held in hands.

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AT our local match this past weekend one stage had an optional bonus target which required a reload of the rifle with one round, "On the Clock." Stage description for rifle was: "10+ and held in hands with muzzle towards the target." Start standing, bla, bla, bla, holding rifle and when ready say the line. One shooter held the rifle, with one hand and the other hand was touching cartridges which were still in the loop, but touching them never the less. The TO started the shooter like this and the shooter after the beep, pulled the round and loaded the rifle and then engaged the targets. there was no call made and the score was recorded as shot.

 

Waco

 

 

 

 

To me the critical part of the OP told us what to interpret..

(unless Waco changes it)

that's all that we can deal with..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' call the original OP..

not our version of what might be :wacko:

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In the OP he used quotation marks. That means it is a quote. HANDS. Shooter did not have both hands on rifle. That means a faulted start. Reshoot or Procedural, shooter's choice.

 

No disrespect intended, but how does the shooter deserve a reshoot?

 

ROII page 6 "Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s) or location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under the clock."

 

Most stage directions I've seen clearly designate positions and locations, i.e. pistols holstered, rifle on left table, etc. Or, as in this case, rifle in hands.

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OK then we can agree the operative word here is in the stage description which stated "Held in HandS" and the plural Hands means two hands and therefore the shooter was started in a faulted position. The underlying question and the one most important for me to have the answer is the definition of Ammunition in hand. Does touching the ammo while still in the cartridge loops qualify? I have seen, on more than one occasion, where the stage description states for the shotgun, " shotgun held at cowboy port arms." The shooter has one hand on ammo but still in the loops. Not trying to beat a dead horse but since the stage description does not state both hands on shotgun, does that mean one hand can be on shells?

 

Waco

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The OP says in post number 1 that stage directions call for the rifle was to be held in hands.

A lot of times, on the wire, the op gets clarified later by the oposter. He also states, in the op, blaa, blaa blaa. meaning he's not reading it verbatim, he's paraphrasing.

That was my point.

In looking again at the OP, he says "10+ held in hands"

I've never been to a shoot, and I've been to a lot in the last 14 years, that state the starting position as "10+ held in hands"

The 10+ seems odd in a starting position, don't it?

 

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I would tend to agree that hands means both hands as well.

 

But look at the RO 2 manual page 6

It is the duty of the CRO/Timer Operator to ensure the shooter begins at the correct

location (e.g. behind the fence) on the stage, and in the correct starting position / stance

(e.g. hands at high surrender)

It could be argued that if only one hand on the rifle was not correct, that the TO started him in a faulty position and that the shooter would then have an argument for a reshoot.

Stages with an optional or mandatory reload are better written to indicate when that reload may be made just to keep things clear to everyone. Myself I'd write it as 'after rifle targets have been engaged, reload one round and engage the bonus target' or something to that effect. Allowing a reload at any time muddys the water IMO.

I've written stages where I specified the reload at the end of the string and I've also written 11 round strings with the rifle loaded with 10. If the starting position is clear and the target order is clear, there is no muddy water. Let shooters figure some stuff out for themselves like when to load the 11th round. I also use "hands" to mean two hands and "hand" to mean either hand. The hand/hands issue also refers to holding or touch an object for a starting position.

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