irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Our club occasionally does things a bit different. So how would you all call this? Ignore the shot gun for the scenario. 4 rifle targets, 4 pistol targets. Shooter position is shooters choice. Gun order is shooters choice. Round count, 4 shot gun must go down. 10 rifle, 10 pistol and 4 reloads. Put 3 rounds on each rifle and pistol targets. Reload the 4 roads in either the rifle or pistol, for a total of 24 rounds. Shooter picks up the rifle and starts shooting the rifle targets. He shoots 3,3,2 and 1. Reloads 4 and puts 2 more on the 4th rifle rifle target. He puts two rounds from the rifle on the last pistol target. He re-stages the rifle. He shoots the pistols 3, 2, changes pistols and shoots 1 on the second pistol target, 3 on the next and 1 on the last. Heads to the unloading table. He jacks one "live" round out of the rifle because he only shot 23 rounds. How would you call it? There was much discussion on this. Ike, who shot the stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 miss, procedural, safety miss for unfired round procedural, only engaged rifle #3 twice safety for round left in rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I am pretty sure that the stage called for 3 on each target with shooters choice of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm having a hard time following the stage, however....if he had a live round in the chamber ( He jacks one "live" round) it's a SDQ. If not it's a Miss and MSV. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Not understanding when he jacked a live round - during the course of fire or at the ULT. If at the ULT - SDQ. If during the course of fire - one miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm making a couple of assumptions in calling one miss only. First, the stage was written so that the rifle and pistols could be used on any targets, rifle or pistol (that's not real uncommon around here). If the rifle round was jacked out during engagement of rifle target #3, so it was engaged, no procedural, but a miss (for the unfired round). No safety as rifle was empty after shooting string. If round was jacked out of rifle while engaging any other target than #3 rifle, add procedural (target #3 engaged only twice). If round was jacked out during clearing of rifle at unloading table, add minor safety (for round on carrier). I'm also assuming that the rifle string was finished with the action open, so no round in chamber. Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Our club occasionally does things a bit different. So how would you all call this? Ignore the shot gun for the scenario. 4 rifle targets, 4 pistol targets. Shooter position is shooters choice. Gun order is shooters choice. Round count, 4 shot gun must go down. 10 rifle, 10 pistol and 4 reloads. Put 3 rounds on each rifle and pistol targets. Reload the 4 roads in either the rifle or pistol, for a total of 24 rounds. Shooter picks up the rifle and starts shooting the rifle targets. He shoots 3,3,2 and 1. Reloads 4 and puts 2 more on the 4th rifle rifle target. He puts two rounds from the rifle on the last pistol target. Those would be 2 MISSES @ 5-seconds ea. = 10 seconds (will come up short on pistol target #4) He re-stages the rifle. He shoots the pistols 3, 2, changes pistols and shoots 1 on the second pistol target, 3 on the next and 1 on the last. Heads to the unloading table. He jacks one "live" round out of the rifle because he only shot 23 rounds. One more "5-second penalty" = 5 seconds (the missing "unfired round" shot for rifle target #3...only hit twice) Live round in rifle action at ULT (assuming NOT chambered if action OPEN) = 10 second MSV TOTAL penalties = 25 seconds. REF: RO1 p.23-24 How would you call it? Question...if the targets are designated for RIFLE & PISTOL, wouldn't it require TWO rifle reloads and TWO pistol reloads to put 3 shots on each of 4 targets = 12?? IF the targets are NOT "firearm specific" then the penalty count would only be ONE miss for the "unfired round" and a MSV penalty at the ULT for that round remaining in the action/magazine of the rifle. TOTAL penalties = 15 seconds It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond S Doug Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 My only concern would be for the round count on type of target. 4 rifle x 3 each is 12 rifle. 4 pistol x 3 is 12 pistol. If you reload 4 in the rifle then the only way to make the round count is to hit 2 pistol targets with the rifle. Wouldn't that make the two from the rifle that hit pistol targets hits? Exact wording of the stage would lprobably clear this up. If that is the case then 5 seconds for the unfired and MSV for the round if on an open carrier, SDQ if in a closed rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 dang Brother Wolf, I'm glad you cud follow at that,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 dang Brother Wolf, I'm glad you cud follow at that,,, Basic scoring procedures...but the round count for each type of target is confusing by the stage wording: "Put 3 rounds on each rifle and pistol targets. Reload the 4 roads in either the rifle or pistol, for a total of 24 rounds." No wonder there "was much discussion" ...so now we wait to see if this will be clarified in order to properly answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Our club occasionally does things a bit different. So how would you all call this? Ignore the shot gun for the scenario. 4 rifle targets, 4 pistol targets. Shooter position is shooters choice. Gun order is shooters choice. Round count, 4 shot gun must go down. 10 rifle, 10 pistol and 4 reloads. Put 3 rounds on each rifle and pistol targets. Reload the 4 roads in either the rifle or pistol, for a total of 24 rounds. Shooter picks up the rifle and starts shooting the rifle targets. He shoots 3,3,2 and 1. Reloads 4 and puts 2 more on the 4th rifle rifle target. He puts two rounds from the rifle on the last pistol target. He re-stages the rifle. He shoots the pistols 3, 2, changes pistols and shoots 1 on the second pistol target, 3 on the next and 1 on the last. Heads to the unloading table. He jacks one "live" round out of the rifle because he only shot 23 rounds. How would you call it? There was much discussion on this. Ike, who shot the stage Since the reload is in the shooters choice of firearm (and if the shooter is allowed to reload 4 in the rifle - he must shoot more than just the four "Rifle targets" to complete the stage - therefore no way to differentiate RIFLE targets and PISTOL targets. There are only "Targets" 8 Targets - Three shots each - any order. 24 rounds. So lets number the targets 1-8 With rifle - Shooter shoots 3 on #1,3 on #2 ,2 on #3 and 1 on #4. Reloads 4 rounds and puts 2 more on #4 target. (at this point, the 1st four targets - excluding #3 are complete. #3 requires one more round) He puts two rounds from the rifle on the last pistol target (2 on #8) With 1st pistol - 3 on #5 , 2 on #6. With 2nd pistol - 1 on #6, 3 on #7 and 1 on #8. If the rifle round was jacked out during the rifle string - assess 1 miss only. (for round that did not strike target 3) If the rifle round was jacked out at the unloading table - assess MSV for round left in rifle (as PWB, assuming not chambered and action open) + 1 miss. Cannot assess misses for rifle strikes on target #8 as by stage instructions - all targets are in play with both firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.” I had never considered that a round that was unfired, therefore a miss, could not be called as a procedural. Only that a fired round, that failed to hit a target, could not have two penalties applied to it. But in this instance, with no specific target order given, only a minimum rounds per target, I can see it now. I stand humbled once again by the master. I'll slink away, hat in hand, to lick my wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 goody, an unfired round shouldn't cause a P eethur, if, say it was jacked out of the rifle while engaging a target, and the shooter proceeded on to the next target......, now, if he finishes and reloads and then shoots that target without the order being a round count, then yes a P... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, what I was thinking was an inadvertant unfired round, say sweep 5 targets once L-R, then R-L, shooter fails to double tap target 5. Miss for round not fired, P for ou of order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Our club occasionally does things a bit different. So how would you all call this? Ignore the shot gun for the scenario. 4 rifle targets, 4 pistol targets. Shooter position is shooters choice. Gun order is shooters choice. Round count, 4 shot gun must go down. 10 rifle, 10 pistol and 4 reloads. Put 3 rounds on each rifle and pistol targets. Reload the 4 roads in either the rifle or pistol, for a total of 24 rounds. Shooter picks up the rifle and starts shooting the rifle targets. He shoots 3,3,2 and 1. Reloads 4 and puts 2 more on the 4th rifle rifle target. He puts two rounds from the rifle on the last pistol target. He re-stages the rifle. He shoots the pistols 3, 2, changes pistols and shoots 1 on the second pistol target, 3 on the next and 1 on the last. Heads to the unloading table. He jacks one "live" round out of the rifle because he only shot 23 rounds. How would you call it? There was much discussion on this. Ike, who shot the stage HEADS TO THE UNLOADING TABLE?????? If he jacked outs a live round AT the ULT it's a SDQ period! He was walking to the ULT with a live round IN THE CHAMBER!!! At least that's how it reads to me! How about some clarification on this important step??? Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The OP is pretty clear that the remaining round was "jacked out" at the ULT...so it was obviously still in the rifle when it was restaged at the end of the shooting string...we're ASSUMING that the rifle was restaged with the action OPEN, so the round was likely NOT IN THE CHAMBER until the action was actually worked to clear the rifle at the ULT. There is a possible "out" regarding noticing/realizing that there was still a round in the rifle, but the OP doesn't give information leading to that conclusion. I.E. IF the rifle was restaged with the action closed/hammer down on the last fired round, the shooter COULD HAVE returned to fire the last round on the target that was only hit twice with NO PENALTY. (this would NOT apply if there had been a specific target order e.g. "triple tap each target" rather than "put three rounds on each target") OR since it was (apparently) restaged w/ "action open/round remaining" the shooter COULD HAVE returned to fire the last rifle round after firing the revolvers to negate the 5-second penalty for the 'unfired round'... but the MSV would still be assessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The OP is pretty clear that the remaining round was "jacked out" at the ULT...so it was obviously still in the rifle when it was restaged at the end of the shooting string...we're ASSUMING that the rifle was restaged with the action OPEN, so the round was likely NOT IN THE CHAMBER until the action was actually worked to clear the rifle at the ULT. There is a possible "out" regarding noticing/realizing that there was still a round in the rifle, but the OP doesn't give information leading to that conclusion. I.E. IF the rifle was restaged with the action closed/hammer down on the last fired round, the shooter COULD HAVE returned to fire the last round on the target that was only hit twice with NO PENALTY. (this would NOT apply if there had been a specific target order e.g. "triple tap each target" rather than "put three rounds on each target") OR since it was (apparently) restaged w/ "action open/round remaining" the shooter COULD HAVE returned to fire the last rifle round after firing the revolvers to negate the 5-second penalty for the 'unfired round'... but the MSV would still be assessed. You're correct, I wasn'tt thinking that the action was probably open so when he jacked out the live round at the ULT it would only be a MSV. Plus a 5 second unfired round=miss. So a miss and a MSV> Right??? Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamon Chute Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 This is a classic example of a stage where I would hand-off the timer, decline to be a counter, and then go grab the brass picker. Just sayin'......waaaaaaaay to much involved for my pea-brain. Thanks for the figgerin' PWB! EC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 OK some clarity. Creeker has the shooting sequence right. 3rd rifle target only got 2 rounds. The rifle was reloaded with 4 rounds. Two of them on the last Rifle,#4 target, and two of them on the last pistol target, #8. Rifle was re-staged with action open. Pistols were shot just as Creeker described. At the end of the stage I picked up my long guns and went to the unloading table. I levered the rifle, and a live round came out. The action was open and no round was in the chamber when I went to the ULT. I was given a miss and a MSV for the live round in the rifle but not in the chamber. The discussion went around a SDQ and a procedural for not engaging the 3rd rifle target 3 times. What added to the confusion was I was shooting BP, full loads and there was no wind. So the visibility for seeing the hits on the rifle targets was not the best. But they heard the rounds but no one counted 23 instead of 24, me included. It was really straight forward 3 rounds each on 8 targets, 10 rifle loaded, 10 pistol loaded, shooters choice on what he reloads. And there was no sequence described. Shooters choice. Everyone ended up shooting the stage with rifle reloads. And I was the only one who messed it up. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerimah Jonathan Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Ike didn't mess up other than as some of us do on occasions, we simply forget to count our shots. What a shame that absolutely nobody caught the mistake while he was on the line. I think he shot first (or close to first) and as he said there was absolutely no breeze to blow away the smoke from his rifle and pistol shots. I don't see how he even saw the targets, so it was easy to understand the (miss) count process. In the end the stage was simply scored with a miss and a safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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