Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Is there a snake oil salesman around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I've got a plan, I tell you! not only a plan, but a dern good plan! A plan I say that everybody can unnerstand! Yes, I tell you I have a dern good easily unnerstood plan, a plan I tell you that is good for the masses, yes sir. A plan that will make you say, why oh why did I ever pay for that other plan that is hard to unnerstand and keeps people in the dark, in the dark I say! Yas sir, a gud plan!!!! simple too, why even I can unnerstand it!! all u do is add up the time and wha la!!! and I kin even add too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I look at Stage Point Scoring as a big improvement over Overall Rank Points (As used at Winter Range and EOT). And it is a huge improvement over Rank Points by Category which allows a major screw up to go relatively unnoticed if the shooter is at the top of that category. I ran a spread sheet using total time against Stage Points on our State match from last years on a few close categories. It did change the results of a few shooters from the Total Time Scoring used at the Match. At least Stage Point Scoring keeps the scoring in the category and does not pit the Frontier Cartridge Duelist against the speed demon Wranglers et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I look at Stage Point Scoring as a big improvement over Overall Rank Points (As used at Winter Range and EOT). And it is a huge improvement over Rank Points by Category which allows a major screw up to go relatively unnoticed if the shooter is at the top of that category. I ran a spread sheet using total time against Stage Points on our State match from last years on a few close categories. It did change the results of a few shooters from the Total Time Scoring used at the Match. At least Stage Point Scoring keeps the scoring in the category and does not pit the Frontier Cartridge Duelist against the speed demon Wranglers et al. What kind of screw up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 What kind of screw up? Any penalty over 5 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 what's next, handicapping ? points for age, points for shooting style, points for gender, points for stock guns. as phantom would say, ooooooooooooooooooooooyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! I would say yer list ain't long enough... They handicap golf and trap, why not SASS? Points for spurs Points for fancy boots Points for hairstyle Points for caliber (Bigger boolit, bigger points) Points for style (Whoopin, hollerin, grinnin, using funky guns or clothes If'n we put our heads together, why by golly I betcha we could have us a whole PAGE of handicaps! I seen me a mermaid once... I even seen a shark eat a octopus... But I ain't never seen me no phantom Russian submarine.... Good movie!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Don, that might be a good way to encourage folks to up their costume standards... Oy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerkline Jesse, SASS #64073 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I've shot USPSA (IPSC) matches under stage point scoring. They've got several extra factors to consider than we do, such as scoring differences between Major and Minor power factors, and the different scoring rings on the targets, etc. By the time you convert time and points into hit factor, and then convert hit factor into stage points, you've got quite a complex, although with the help of electronic scoring and computers, workable, scoring system. Part of what makes it work, though, is that the various divisions are ONLY scored within themselves, and NOT against each other. This is so the $500 Glock or 8 round 1911, or 6 round revolver aren't competing against the $3500 scoped and compensated marvels of modern gun smithing that live in the Open Division. Makes sense, right? Except some clubs will also post, unofficially, the combined totals. What's wrong with that, you ask? After all, it's intensely satisfying to find out that you beat even one Open shooter with a 1911 or revolver, right? Well, the problem is that as soon as you start using two different data sets, you're going to start getting two different sets of results. At the last match I shot, there were two of us shooting in the Single Stack (1911) Division. In the official, divisional results, he won. In the unofficial overalls, though, I did. So who won? In USPSA, the answer's easy. He did. The overalls don't count. Now, you bring this system over to SASS, where the overalls do very much count. Where, in fact, the overalls are often the main event, as all the different age groups and genders and slightly different styles meet up and see who won. Real soon, if you score categories separately, and overalls together, you're going to start getting different results. That's gonna really annoy the guy who comes in second in his category, but ahead in the overalls. It's gonna be a mess when someone wins a match but loses his category, that way. It's gonna be a huge, scandalous mess when the National or World Championship comes out topsy turvy. If you hand a World Champion buckle and second place category buckle to the same person, how will the category winner feel? Didn't he beat that guy? Isn't he the real Champion? The whole point of a scoring system is to answer the question "Who won?" If it can't do that, then it's dysfunctional. Then too, it also fails in its stated goal of making different COFs worth more or less, according to their difficulty. It just counts shots. A 10-10-4 dump stage, with no movement and the targets in your face is worth the exact same 240 points as a 10-10-4 track and field event, with targets and shooting positions scattered hither and yon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 kind of sounds like the rank point by category that was being pushed several years ago..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I have read all the posts. I have not seen posted the problem that Stage Point Scoring is solving. Can anyone identify the problem ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 It takes a VERY complex scoring system to make things unfair but with an explanation of being MORE fair. Kinda' like our current tax system compared to a flat tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I have read all the posts. I have not seen posted the problem that Stage Point Scoring is solving. Can anyone identify the problem ??? Shush! Don't tell anyone I posted this... The problem is that we are not using Total Time Scoring. Disclaimer: I am not a spokesperson for anyone or any group with this opinion. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I have read all the posts. I have not seen posted the problem that Stage Point Scoring is solving. Can anyone identify the problem ??? I always thought the reason for not using total time scoring is that contestants can determine who likely won before awards were given and then fewer folks show up for awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Total Time and Rank Points are two different (but similar) games played with the same basic equipment and rules, in which the shooter employes different strategies to obtain the best score. It would seem a continuous posting of points earned in Stage Point Scoring would be needed for the shooter to employ an effective strategy to prevail in the shooters Category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Cockroach, Some MAY use different strategies, depending on scoring system. but I'm willing to bet the VAST majority DO NOT. I know I don't. My strategy is rat-simple: Hit all the targets as fast as I can. Possum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 What Possum said!!! usually all out, better be focused or it aint' gonna be pretty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 HOWDY ; I like any system that keeps my category of shooter separate from other category Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 HOWDY ; I like any system that keeps my category of shooter separate from other category But I think you may be surprised by the results. I haven't studied the new system in depth, so time will tell. . . Your statement is a common sentiment, but it shows a misunderstanding and weakness of scoring systems. Unless you have a large sample, most rank type systems do not work very well for measurement. So limiting it to one category will often have more problems - not fewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 PS; Hitting all the targets as fast as you can is a good strategy for the Total Time game. In a Rank Point game doing that is fine for a long complex stage, where a miss will have less impact on the shooter's Rank Points. But in a short, stand and deliver, stage - that approach has a higher probability (with a miss) of costing the shooter a very large number of Rank Points. So in a Rank Points game, I slow down on such a stage. As others have said, a miss on a fast stage is more costly than a miss on a longer stage. All misses are not equal, as they are in a Total Time game. Some call that unfair. it is not unfair, it is just a different game. I play both games, but, I do play them slightly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulls Head Bill SASS#33692 Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 So now we have yet another scoring system to deal with?!?!?! Great! For what reason? Total Time and/or Rank Points wasn't enough? I've won and lost based on both systems and don't see the need for yet ANOTHER scoring system. This new system benefits who? And just what IS the benefit? Complications! Whoever came up with this idea just wants to complicate things more. It is my belief that our sport just doesn't need it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulls Head Bill SASS#33692 Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 My strategy is rat-simple: Hit all the targets as fast as I can. Possum I've heard about people like you!.......you're one of those 'Extremists'! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olen Rugged Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 If you look back at the way scoring has evolved in the complete alphabet soup of shooting games there is an uncanny similarity throughout. They start as a manly game of heads up, run-what-ya-brung, winner take all events then slowly, carefully, fairly, they become T-ball. Everyone is a champion, no one is a winner. Simplicity trumps complexity every time. If what you want to do is find an overall best then use total time. If what you want to do is find many "bests" they are distributed through out the time placement. Anything else is T-ball. Olen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 If you look back at the way scoring has evolved in the complete alphabet soup of shooting games there is an uncanny similarity throughout. They start as a manly game of heads up, run-what-ya-brung, winner take all events then slowly, carefully, fairly, they become T-ball. Everyone is a champion, no one is a winner. Simplicity trumps complexity every time. If what you want to do is find an overall best then use total time. If what you want to do is find many "bests" they are distributed through out the time placement. Anything else is T-ball. Olen Total Time. Each Cats. fastest shooter wins... Each Cat winner gets the big Trophy.. Period!!!!! Oh, side note, so and so was fastest time of entire match. Give em a pic frame -w- a piece of paper.. Being as so and so already won their Cat, and got a big trophy.. Everyone shoots agin only their own Cat. for total time period.. You get a miss, a penalty, a P, MS, SD.. Whatever, its total time, you pay the price.. Simple, straight forward. easy to figger, and unforgiving, can't turn back real time!!!! Unless ya got a WidderMatic Marlin, they run so fast you might just be able to turn back some time... Kinda like T-Ball every Cat. has a Big Winner... Spades H. Gonna shoot what they say I gotta just as fast as I can!!!! Period..HEEEHEEEHEEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Cockroach, Some MAY use different strategies, depending on scoring system. but I'm willing to bet the VAST majority DO NOT. I know I don't. My strategy is rat-simple: Hit all the targets as fast as I can. Possum I didn't know there was any other way. If you aint going as fast as you can - you're going too slow. I would rather crash trying to lead than hold back just to finish "well". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulls Head Bill SASS#33692 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 If you look back at the way scoring has evolved in the complete alphabet soup of shooting games there is an uncanny similarity throughout. They start as a manly game......then slowly, carefully, fairly, they become T-ball. Everyone is a champion, no one is a winner. Simplicity trumps complexity every time. If what you want to do is find an overall best then use total time. Anything else is T-ball. THAT says it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You cannot put scoring more clearly than what Olen stated! RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Question... What is more important to SASS shooters? Overall winners or category winners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Splash and thrash as they might, a few wildebeest will still get eaten. Some seem unsure if this is entertainment or competition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 BJ, I'm always quite interested in scores the black powder categories. These categories just don't produce the overall winners but I love seeing how the Soot Lords and Ladies of the Purple Feather score. I am also interested in how the two-handed shooters in the smokeless categories place since these categories usually have the match winners. That's just one opinion but it's what I look for. Top ten matters to me too. Regarding three scorings options, well just decide before the match what to use, input the scores into ACES, select the desired option and announce the results at the awards ceremony. Put away the steel, clean the guns and let's do it again next weekend. If you write the stages and select the scoring option I'm pleased to come and do it your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 Question... What is more important to SASS shooters? Overall winners or category winners? I would guess that more care about category winners . That would explain why ther are so many categorys . I will never win an overall but thats all I care about . How far back from the best . I will shoot any match no matter the scoring but I aiways look at the total time scores first . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 So, how does each of the three allowable scoring systems relate in terms to that is important to what is important to you? What are the pluses and minuses of each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I just don't understand why football is not scored by total yards gained???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I just don't understand why football is not scored by total yards gained???? !!!!! PERFECT!!!! Spades H. Likes, We would'nt want some crazy hail marry pass to win now would we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Kind of like electing a president by popular vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Score by all three and best two out of three WINS! Lol EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.