Stage Point Scoring

[Noz]

Stage Point Scoring is great. I've been using it for our Wild Bunch matches for several months. Not hard, the computer does the work. What this method of scoring does is combine Total Time and Rank Point. It is the best of both worlds, IMHO. Many here believe in Total Time. That's great. However, as the venerable Griff posted above, not all stages are created equal. That's where Rank Point comes in, and many here believe just as strongly in this method of scoring.

 

I like SPS. Before you bash it so, maybe you should give it a try. And the criticism about the article being in four parts...really? Did you ever think it was done that way due to layout issues? Build anticipation? I've seen MANY articles published over several months and have not seen one complaint. Get a life folks.

Why do I not be impressed with your Wild Bunch Scoring? Oh. right it has nothing to do with SASS.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

This is where I say give it a shot and see how it works before you decide it's bad. I think TT proponents will like it.

 

Stan

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

You may be correct. Or maybe not. However, The Chronicle is THE publication for Cowboy Action Shooting, Wild Bunch Action Shooting and Cowboy Mounted Shooting. If you don't like it or think it is not appropriate for CAS that's OK. Just remember, SASS is a bigger pond than just CAS.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

 

Explanation of the "Stage Points Scoring System”

 

 

The Stage Points Scoring System (SPSS) used at the WBAS World

Championships in 2012 is an adaptation of the method used for many years

by IPSC. It is simplified from their version which uses "hit factor" as

the divider. Since we don't have different power factor divisions and

we don't have targets with different scoring rings the system we use is

the total stage time (raw time + misses + penalties - bonuses) as the

divider. (denominator)

 

It is important to understand that

using SPSS scoring for awards is WITHIN CATEGORY. In WBAS there are 4

categories (MT,MM,LT,LM). Shooters in the other 3 categories have NO

effect on the shooters score. Unlike most scoring systems where all

shooters at the match are grouped together and scores are determined

based on overall finish within the whole, in this system only shooters

within a given category are scored against each other.

 

For

years shooters have questioned SASS scoring systems that scored all

shooters in a match against each other even though categories differed

so markedly in equipment and shooting style. The SPSS results are a

straight line based purely on the shooter's time against the best time

for the given course of fire (stage) within their category. There is no

"bell curve" as seen in rank points, and the more difficult Course of

Fire (COF) has more value (stage points) which is not reflected in a

Total Time match. The system is a compromise between Rank Point and

Total Time scoring. The match results using SPSS are more closely

aligned with TT than RP.

 

When using SPSS some advanced

input from the COF (stage) designers to the scoring system is necessary.

Every HIT required is worth 10 points. A COF of 20-10-6 requires 36

hits so it is worth 360 points. A COF of 20-6-5 requires 31 hits so it

is worth 310 points. A COF of 10-10-4 requires 24 hits so it is worth

240 points. A pistol only stage of 25 hits is worth 250 points. Bonus

targets are NOT required hits so they are not included in the COF count.

If hit they are just deductions from the total stage time. The value of

each COF must be input into the scoring system. This is what allows

more difficult COF's to be of greater value.

 

For every COF

(stage) there will be 4 shooters who get ALL the stage points

(MT,MM,LT,LM). Each shooter gets a % of the stage points based on the

winning time of the best shooter within their category.

 

EXAMPLES: Stage 1 COF (20-10-6) requires 36 hits so it is worth 360 stage points.

 

 

MM winner shoots it in 20.05 seconds. Gets 360 stage points.

Another shooter in MM shoots it in 21.03 seconds: 20.05/21.03=.9534% X 360=343.22 stage points.

Another shooter in MM gets a SDQ. A SDQ gets 0 stage points.

 

MT winner shoots it in 22.06 seconds. Gets 360 stage points

Another shooter in MT shoots it in 24.05 seconds: 22.06/24.05=.9173% X 360= 330.23 stage points.

Another shooter in MT shoots it in 30.05 seconds: 22.06/30.05=.7341% X 360= 264.28 stage points.

 

LM winner shoots it in 21.46 seconds. Gets 360 stage points.

Another shooter in LM shoots it in 23.86 seconds: 21.46/23.86=.8982% X 360=323.35 stage points.

Another shooter in LM shoots it in 44.64 seconds: 21.46/44.64=.4807% X 360=173.05 stage points

 

LT winner shoots it in 23.04 seconds gets 360 stage points.

Another shooter in LT shoots it in 25.65 seconds: 23.04/25.65=.8982% X 360=323.35 stage points.

Another shooter in LT gets a DNF. A DNF gets 0 stage points.

 

 

 

As can be seen the stage points awarded are a straight line (not a

curve) based on each shooter's total stage time. It doesn't matter

whether there are 2 or 2000 shooters in the category. To get the "Top

10" or "Sweet 16" or just the top overall Male and Female a SEPARATE

calculation run is made with only the top shooter regardless of category

receiving all the stage points for each COF. (This is the system

currently used by both the TT and RP systems by SASS from which they

pick the individual category winners and placements).

 

SPSS is

currently in the SASS scoring system used by CD Tom at EOT, but I don't

know when a new release with it will be issued. It is also in the

A.C.E.S. system that was demonstrated at EOT and was used by T Bone at

his recent matches. It is a fairly simple calculation so a spreadsheet

to do it would be easy.

 

Is SPSS perfect?? NO. No system that is

workable over a wide variety of stage designs that is simple enough for

widespread use is perfect. This system has proven to be simple enough

for widespread use and still allow for more complicated COF's to have

higher value. Many attempts have been made over the years to make more

difficult COF's have higher value based on some formula of movement,

target size and distance, but all have failed. Assigning different

values to individual targets based on perceived difficulty by the

designer have resulted in anarchy. Over tens of years and hundreds of

thousands of matches SPSS has proven to be the most fair and accurate of

all those tried.

 

Pecos Clyde

 

I don't think so......This is like news articles,threads on the wire, pretty much anything else.If ya haven't gotten my attention by the second sentence ya l ain't gonna get it

If something can't be explained in a paragraph and it deals with recreation, religion or politics, ya lost me there too.

All this hogwash in the name of "fairness."

Pleeeeze.

Let's just all put on cap pistols and play in the front yard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

but the shoot was tainted for many years in the eyes of the shooters that felt they got "cheated".

Nobody was cheated,its just some folks wussed out.

Did they give out a special badge for that??

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

It is already a part of ACES.

 

KK

Then, when it comes time to experiment, all you need to do is the "what if"? Will ACES recalculate to any of the installed scoring formats? If so, it might be fun to have it spit out all the permutations and see how folks like the outcome. I'd like to see it, but my guess is that all the same folks will be at the top of the leader board when the dust settles.

 

CR

 

CR

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I think it stinks, try and explain all that to a new shooter or someone watching... can you imagine the look on their faces?

 

rank scoring is bad enough!

 

give me total time!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Total time is the only way to really compare results across categories of shooters. Sure, it makes it impossible for a BP shooter or a duelist to take overall. So what.

 

Sure, it makes it easy to calculate winners while standing in front of the display board. So what. If folks are wanting to go home before the awards ceremony, let 'em. Betcha the winners will still stick around for their applause.

 

Keep it simple. Or most folks' eyes glaze over.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Total time is the only way to really compare results across categories of shooters. Sure, it makes it impossible for a BP shooter or a duelist to take overall. So what.

 

Sure, it makes it easy to calculate winners while standing in front of the display board. So what. If folks are wanting to go home before the awards ceremony, let 'em. Betcha the winners will still stick around for their applause.

 

Keep it simple. Or most folks' eyes glaze over.

 

Good luck, GJ

Ta Daaaaa!! Yep, I've shot many a total time state match, never heard of anyone leaving early because they may have sneaked a peak at the results. Those that are gonna stay like to stay for the shoot offs and awards anyway. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[El Muerto Negro]

What is this about four people per stage get all the points?

[Goliath, SASS #41359]

What is this about four people per stage get all the points?

Those four should donate their fair share to make sure that no shooters are left behind.

Let's give everyone a trophy, so everyone will be special

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

What is this about four people per stage get all the points?

Since each category is scored separately, the top shooter in each category on each stage gets all the points. In the WB example, there just happen to be 4 categories.

 

In SASS, how many categories are there?

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well,

 

Just why is it that the simplicity of total time scoring is so objectionable to some folks. I just don't get it.

 

Rank is rank & stage point is staggering.

 

I can hear the Duke now, "Just where the hell did you come up with that? Just keep it simple so everyone can understand it."

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

After some study and some comparisons of matches using all three scoring methods I'm willing to give it a shot. I could learn to hate it less than rank. But MI state match will still use TT........

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

what's next, handicapping ?

 

points for age,

 

points for shooting style,

 

points for gender,

 

points for stock guns.

 

as phantom would say, ooooooooooooooooooooooyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[John E. Law]

what's next, handicapping ? Well, Shyanny you got me there

 

points for age, And you definately got me here

 

points for shooting style, Yep, I'm losing out here too!

 

points for gender, I think this one is even (I may get the advantage here depending on which shirt you wear!)

 

points for stock guns. Were even here, So it' 3.5 to .5 I guess you win! Congratulations!

 

as phantom would say, ooooooooooooooooooooooyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

 

I don't like the perty boy's scoring method!

 

JEL

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Pretty soon we can all show up at a shoot, unload our guns and ammo, register and then sit around the campfire while the computer figures out who won. Then pick up awards and put our guns and unshot ammo back in the vehicle. Saves a lot of powder, bullets and primers.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

We do seem to spend a lot of energy trying to fix things that ain't broke. I guess it's just the nature of man to want to change things just for the sake of change. Hardly any sport you watch has the same rules it did 10 or 20 years ago. American league new temporary rule about the DH is 50 years old! About the same age as this thread. I suspect any scoring system that's evenly applied to all will give you the same winners almost every time. TT sure seems to be the simplest to explain and use.

 

CR

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Rank point scoring has a number of problems and Stage Point Scoring is a huge improvement. Its results are much closer to total time. Two shooters have to be real close for an inversion (a shooter with more points beats a shooter with a lower total time) to occur. Then when you compare their scores you will find the losing shooter blew a stage. Most folks like total time because there is no math but the Wild Bunch doesn't allow it, so it is what is is.

 

In SPS each stage is treated as a match in itself. The overall winners are those who consistently shoot well over all the stages.

 

The points assigned reflect the number of rounds fired; more rounds means more points for that stage. The top shooter on that stage sets the standard. The other shooters receive points relative to the fastest time for that stage. At 2013 EOT Molasses Kid won 7 of the 12 stages and won overall while at 2013 WR Evil Roy didn't win a single stage and won overall. Evil Roy shot consistently fast and was 2nd or 3rd on each stage for 12 stages. That is as close to total time as you can get (yeah, Evil Roy's total time was the fastest).

 

Another thing I like about SPS is that a SDQ gives you zero points, not a penalty of 999.99 seconds. That way a top shooter can still be competitive. Tex won Traditional at Outlaw Trail with a SDQ because his total points on 11 stages were higher than the shooters with points on 12 stages. So think about this, in total time the only way to factor in a SDQ is to add a penalty because a zero would actually help a shooter if the least total time won. Can you guess who had the faster times on those stages?

 

Download the ACES program to your iPhone or hand held device and start scoring your monthly matches. You will know the winners as soon as the last score is called. And best yet the program is free!

 

I know this post won't stop the whining. But SPS is a huge improvement and is as close to total time as you can get and still honor each stage as a match in itself. I think you will like it.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

I'm not for or against but this seems ineresting would love to see it in action, and I know most prefer TT, it is the simplest most straight forward scoring out there, but guys and gals don't get wrapped around the axel, this from what I read is not a madatory switch just another option available to for scoring.

 

KK

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

What is this about four people per stage get all the points?

The article was originally written by Pecos Clyde for WBAS, where there are four categories. So the top person in each category gets the maximum points in a stage.

 

Following are some examples.

"EXAMPLES: Stage 1 COF (20-10-6) requires 36 hits so it is worth 360 stage points.

 

If the MM winner shoots it in 20.05 seconds, he gets 360 stage points.

Another shooter in MM shoots it in 21.03 seconds: 20.05/21.03=.9534% X 360=343.22 stage points.

Another shooter in MM gets a SDQ. A SDQ or DNF gets 0 stage points.

 

If the MT winner shoots it in 22.06 seconds, he gets 360 stage points.

Another shooter in MT shoots it in 24.05 seconds: 22.06/24.05=.9173% X 360=330.23 stage points.

 

Another shooter in MT shoots it in 30.05 seconds: 22.06/30.05=.7341% X 360= 264.28 stage points.

 

To get the "Top 10" or "Sweet 16" or just the top overall Male and Female, a SEPARATE calculation is made with only the top shooter regardless of category receiving all the stage points for each COF. This is the system currently used by both the TT and RP systems by SASS from which they pick the individual category winners and placements.

 

At the local level, scoring can now be in any of the following systems: Total Time, Rank Point or Stage Point Scoring."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[ShadowCatcher]

So now we have yet another option to score a match . It should be a very simple transition . Looks like they will sum it up in only four separate articles in the CC. Meanwhile if you don't quite understand total time scoring they summed that up in half a sentence in the first installment of stage point scoring . Have any of you ever played a game called Mouse Trap ?

I'm grateful that there are computer programs to keep score and figure it all out.

 

i just try to go as fast as I can and not miss targets, where I end up will be a function of some computer program I can't figure out.

But I will have shot as fast as I can while tying to not miss.

 

That's all I ever try to do anyway . . ..

 

The rest is to erudite for me... and my degree is in Numerical Analysis . . .

I just play cowboy to have fun....

 

SC

[Deacon Henry, SASS #53503L]

Howdy Shadow Catcher. I am mathematically challenged but I would ask you, would it be of any value to take some past 10 stage matches and run them through all three programs and see how it shakes out? Total time and rank should be done so just need to add stage point scoring? Same here, shoot, have fun and make friends.

Regards, Deacon

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

and if your computer takes a dump?

 

why don't we add "what type of scoring system to use" at the next convention.............

 

I could see it having a higher approval than the Bisley question this year! total time that is..

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

and if your computer takes a dump?

 

why don't we add "what type of scoring system to use" at the next convention.............

 

I could see it having a higher approval than the Bisley question this year! total time that is..

My friend you know as well as I do it would be a waste of time, how long has the TT vs RP discussion been going on and basically boils down to the WB has said this is the way it will be. But if you feel frisky write up a proposal for next years convention.

 

KK

[El Muerto Negro]

Ok so what would you do if the WB said all Sass affiliated shoots local or otherwise most be scored only by rank or this new program? Would you not shoot?

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Wouldn't phase me at all.

 

KK

[Grizzly Dave]

Ok so what would you do if the WB said all Sass affiliated shoots local or otherwise most be scored only by rank or this new program? Would you not shoot?

 

What scoring method used at a match is of minimal importance when choosing matches to shoot, though I do prefer total time as it makes the most sense to me.

 

What would bother me is if SASS mandated such changes without taking into account the opinions of their customers.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I'm frisky most of the time, but tha's another subject!!!!

 

 

would be interesting...

[Griff]

It would be amusing if it weren't so sad. How does a question about Stage Point Scoring deginerate into a rank points vs. total time discussion...? Well, by posting it on the SASS Wire.

 

The one issue about total time that sticks in many people's craw, is that a shooter can gain a huge advantage on one stage over the 2nd place competitor that may not be made up over the next stage... Sometimes so much so, that it may take several stages in order to whittle down a single stage win for those that are winning other stages. Using a score system that allows one stage to determine the whole outcome of the match, doesn't provide an indication of who the "best" shooter was for all stages. It simply provides for identifying the "fastest" shooter for all stages! And if that's your definition of "best"... so be it. It is not necessarily so... Some folks don't think it's cold when the temperature is 50ºF, others feel it's unbearably so.

 

No, Rank Points isn't perfect... but, any place finish on one stage is equal in value to the overall as every equal place finish on all other stages, regardless of the time it takes to accomplish it. I.e., 2nd place counts the same on every stage. This has been seen by those that developed this game as a "good thing". At one time, I disagreed with this.

 

Having seen instances where a single stage win determined the overall winner, simply because the winner of all the rest of the stages couldn't overtake the time differential on that single stage changed my mind.

 

W/o scoring rings or other mechanisms to reward relative accuracy as in other shooting disciplines, RP was seen as the only other option to provide a mechanism to impart some equality between what can, at times, be widely disparate stages.

 

Neither TT nor Percentage of fastest time provide for the disparity between stages, i.e., length of stage, number of shots, or any other real-life factors. And while stage point scoring can only add the number of shots as a factor in scoring... the fact that it does so, is seen as an improvement over the utterly simplistic Total-Time scoring and over Rank Point scoring with it's rigid placement factor regardless of relative performances.

 

I believe that given a chance, without some of the virulent sarcasm prone to be used here, Stage Point Scoring will come to be seen as an improvement by the majority. Those with closed minds will probably continue not to see its value, just as they refused to see any value in the RP system.

 

As someone once said to me, we each don't shoot in a vacuum... there are other competitors involved, and pretending that those other shooters don't exist and won't affect your score is unrealistic.

[Grizzly Dave]

Griff - please do not assume we are closed minded because we do not care for rank points or stage points.

 

To me, it is a fundamentally different way of looking at a match.

 

Stage points is more of a skins game of sorts. Each stage counts the same, no matter how many shots, how much movement, or how complicated the scenario.

 

Total time is simply combined overall performance. Everyone shoots the same stages for a time.

 

Stage points and to a lesser extent rank points seem to be designed to attempt lessen the advantage of being young, fleet of foot and well practiced. My times on stand and deliver stages are much closer to the top than my times on stages with a lot of movement, so under stage points I would finish higher over all, but by penalizing those shooters who would have been above me based on total time.

 

Not to mention trying to explain it to new shooters, not just the what and how of it, but the why, when I don't understand the why my own self.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Stage points does take into account the number of shots to determine number of available points. But you're right. It does not take into account movement, etc

 

I've won and lost both ways. Just tell me what we're doing and let's shoot.

[Grizzly Dave]

Stage points does take into account the number of shots to determine number of available points. But you're right. It does not take into account movement, etc

 

I've won and lost both ways. Just tell me what we're doing and let's shoot.

 

Branch - you are right, more shots, more stage points, but in a game where each stage is 10-10-4 and varies by only a couple rounds either way occasionally, I still don't see the allure.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

No, I totally can understand you feeling that, Grizz.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

the argument for rank points was for different difficulties of stages, but at large shoots with large numbers of shooters all of the stages are usually pretty close to degree of difficulty.

 

one thing that sorta gets my goat, "A high level mathematician was brought in to run the numbers" not an exact quote but close. really?

 

and what is wrong with total time? everyone shoots the same stages, if it rains on one posse for a stage and not the others, maybe there should be points for that too.