Stage Point Scoring

[Most Wanted]

So now we have yet another option to score a match . It should be a very simple transition . Looks like they will sum it up in only four separate articles in the CC. Meanwhile if you don't quite understand total time scoring they summed that up in half a sentence in the first installment of stage point scoring . Have any of you ever played a game called Mouse Trap ?

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

If you like your present scoring system, you can keep it. Period. *

 

If you like your present scorekeeper, you can keep him or her. Period *

 

 

 

 

* Should your scoring system or scorekeeper be determined to be "substandard" when compared to stage point scoring, some adjustments will be made.

[McCandless]

OK, I've been hiding under a rock, I guess...

1. What is Stage Point Scoring?

2. Is it an official SASS approved Scoring System?

3. Is it replacing Rank Point Scoring?

4. Is it an option, as some of the matches I go to have opted for Total Time?

 

Please explain...

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

OK, I've been hiding under a rock, I guess...

1. What is Stage Point Scoring?

2. Is it an official SASS approved Scoring System?

3. Is it replacing Rank Point Scoring?

4. Is it an option, as some of the matches I go to have opted for Total Time?

 

Please explain...

1. It is a scoring system that assigns a point value to a stage based on number of rounds fired. Quickest person on the stage gets full points. All followers get a percentage of those points based on the difference between their time and the leader. It is a bit of an oversimplification but it will do for this short explanation.

2. They have been using it for WB major matches for about a year

3. I'll let others speak on that

4. See #3

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Is this the same system when first used in a big match awarded match overall winner to a cowboy that did not even win his category? I recall a multi page Wire discussion and explanation on why this result was correct.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Because categories are scored separately of each other,yes. It is a possibility.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I can't see that happening. If someone beats everybody at the match, that would include everybody in their category.

 

I think if this scoring system were implemented incorrectly, i.e. scoring by category AND scoring by overall, then yes that might happen.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Explanation of the "Stage Points Scoring System”

The Stage Points Scoring System (SPSS) used at the WBAS World
Championships in 2012 is an adaptation of the method used for many years
by IPSC. It is simplified from their version which uses "hit factor" as
the divider. Since we don't have different power factor divisions and
we don't have targets with different scoring rings the system we use is
the total stage time (raw time + misses + penalties - bonuses) as the
divider. (denominator)

It is important to understand that
using SPSS scoring for awards is WITHIN CATEGORY. In WBAS there are 4
categories (MT,MM,LT,LM). Shooters in the other 3 categories have NO
effect on the shooters score. Unlike most scoring systems where all
shooters at the match are grouped together and scores are determined
based on overall finish within the whole, in this system only shooters
within a given category are scored against each other.

For
years shooters have questioned SASS scoring systems that scored all
shooters in a match against each other even though categories differed
so markedly in equipment and shooting style. The SPSS results are a
straight line based purely on the shooter's time against the best time
for the given course of fire (stage) within their category. There is no
"bell curve" as seen in rank points, and the more difficult Course of
Fire (COF) has more value (stage points) which is not reflected in a
Total Time match. The system is a compromise between Rank Point and
Total Time scoring. The match results using SPSS are more closely
aligned with TT than RP.

When using SPSS some advanced
input from the COF (stage) designers to the scoring system is necessary.
Every HIT required is worth 10 points. A COF of 20-10-6 requires 36
hits so it is worth 360 points. A COF of 20-6-5 requires 31 hits so it
is worth 310 points. A COF of 10-10-4 requires 24 hits so it is worth
240 points. A pistol only stage of 25 hits is worth 250 points. Bonus
targets are NOT required hits so they are not included in the COF count.
If hit they are just deductions from the total stage time. The value of
each COF must be input into the scoring system. This is what allows
more difficult COF's to be of greater value.

For every COF
(stage) there will be 4 shooters who get ALL the stage points
(MT,MM,LT,LM). Each shooter gets a % of the stage points based on the
winning time of the best shooter within their category.

EXAMPLES: Stage 1 COF (20-10-6) requires 36 hits so it is worth 360 stage points.


MM winner shoots it in 20.05 seconds. Gets 360 stage points.
Another shooter in MM shoots it in 21.03 seconds: 20.05/21.03=.9534% X 360=343.22 stage points.
Another shooter in MM gets a SDQ. A SDQ gets 0 stage points.

MT winner shoots it in 22.06 seconds. Gets 360 stage points
Another shooter in MT shoots it in 24.05 seconds: 22.06/24.05=.9173% X 360= 330.23 stage points.
Another shooter in MT shoots it in 30.05 seconds: 22.06/30.05=.7341% X 360= 264.28 stage points.

LM winner shoots it in 21.46 seconds. Gets 360 stage points.
Another shooter in LM shoots it in 23.86 seconds: 21.46/23.86=.8982% X 360=323.35 stage points.
Another shooter in LM shoots it in 44.64 seconds: 21.46/44.64=.4807% X 360=173.05 stage points

LT winner shoots it in 23.04 seconds gets 360 stage points.
Another shooter in LT shoots it in 25.65 seconds: 23.04/25.65=.8982% X 360=323.35 stage points.
Another shooter in LT gets a DNF. A DNF gets 0 stage points.



As can be seen the stage points awarded are a straight line (not a
curve) based on each shooter's total stage time. It doesn't matter
whether there are 2 or 2000 shooters in the category. To get the "Top
10" or "Sweet 16" or just the top overall Male and Female a SEPARATE
calculation run is made with only the top shooter regardless of category
receiving all the stage points for each COF. (This is the system
currently used by both the TT and RP systems by SASS from which they
pick the individual category winners and placements).

SPSS is
currently in the SASS scoring system used by CD Tom at EOT, but I don't
know when a new release with it will be issued. It is also in the
A.C.E.S. system that was demonstrated at EOT and was used by T Bone at
his recent matches. It is a fairly simple calculation so a spreadsheet
to do it would be easy.

Is SPSS perfect?? NO. No system that is
workable over a wide variety of stage designs that is simple enough for
widespread use is perfect. This system has proven to be simple enough
for widespread use and still allow for more complicated COF's to have
higher value. Many attempts have been made over the years to make more
difficult COF's have higher value based on some formula of movement,
target size and distance, but all have failed. Assigning different
values to individual targets based on perceived difficulty by the
designer have resulted in anarchy. Over tens of years and hundreds of
thousands of matches SPSS has proven to be the most fair and accurate of
all those tried.

 

Pecos Clyde

 

Scoring for a CAS stage of 10 - 10 - 4 would be 240 stage points.

 

Ace

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

What's wrong with the concept of the fastest shooter wins? Seems simple enough that it can be explained in a single sentence. If it takes four articles in the CC to explain it is probably getting far away from simplicity.

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

Sorry, total time still makes the most sense to me.

[Spades Hanlin SASS#66204]

I can't see that happening. If someone beats everybody at the match, that would include everybody in their category.

 

I think if this scoring system were implemented incorrectly, i.e. scoring by category AND scoring by overall, then yes that might happen.

 

Makes sence to me too Possum...

 

Spades H.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Ok I'm not saying I'm for it or against it, but it does peak my interest, a lot of people in SASS have been complaining we should be shooting against our own category and not against every one else like rank points does, if you are useing ACES it has the capability for you to score using this sytem or to convert a completed shoot so you can take a look at how it would change the results, interesting would like to see it in action.

 

 

KK

 

PS It still scores an overall.

[Flush Draw]

This stage scoring system looks like a good deal to me. First time I've ever seen it. Looks simple enough. Course easy for me to say cuz I don't do scores. As long as it works and everybody's times are correct, then fine by me. Let's shoot!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

What's wrong with the concept of the fastest shooter wins? Seems simple enough that it can be explained in a single sentence. If it takes four articles in the CC to explain it is probably getting far away from simplicity.

No scoring system is perfect even "the fastest shooter wins." Suppose a top shooter is clean, fast and on the last stage a hull is left dangling out of his double barrel shotgun and he gets a ten second MSV. The shooter then looses to someone that is nine seconds slower for an action that has nothing to do with shooting skill or speed (like a miss). So, the fastest shooter didn't win.

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

Total time should win. The longer you take to shoot the more total time you achieve. I LIKE it

[Grizzly Dave]

Penalties of any kind, re: a hull left on yer shotgun, can and should hurt a shooter no matter what scoring method you use, otherwise why have the penalties at all?

 

I tend to lean towards total time scoring, it is the simplest and after all, it's what all the others are based on, why pollute it?

 

I have come to accept Rank Point scoring and have read justifications for it from people I respect that make sense, even though I may not agree. My major beef with it is that overall rank points alone are used to determine both overall placement, and category placement. With most all final scores being done by computer, it's easy enough to remedy via software to use category rank points for category placement, and overall rank points for overall placement. However, that will result in some anomalies where someone will place higher overall that another shooter, but lower than the same shooter within their category.

 

Stage point scoring? Honestly I think it is a solution in search of a problem. I have often had newer shooters ask what rank points scoring is, just imagine trying to explain stage point scoring. I know of a number of big matches that use total time scoring because that is what people want. If Wild Bunch Action shooting wants stage point scoring that's great, but don't assume just because you all want it, and it seems to be the best for your game, that cowboy shooters want, need, or will embrace it as well.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Penalties of any kind, re: a hull left on yer shotgun, can and should hurt a shooter no matter what scoring method you use, otherwise why have the penalties at all?

 

I tend to lean towards total time scoring, it is the simplest and after all, it's what all the others are based on, why pollute it?

 

I have come to accept Rank Point scoring and have read justifications for it from people I respect that make sense, even though I may not agree. My major beef with it is that overall rank points alone are used to determine both overall placement, and category placement. With most all final scores being done by computer, it's easy enough to remedy via software to use category rank points for category placement, and overall rank points for overall placement. However, that will result in some anomalies where someone will place higher overall that another shooter, but lower than the same shooter within their category.

 

Stage point scoring? Honestly I think it is a solution in search of a problem. I have often had newer shooters ask what rank points scoring is, just imagine trying to explain stage point scoring. I know of a number of big matches that use total time scoring because that is what people want. If Wild Bunch Action shooting wants stage point scoring that's great, but don't assume just because you all want it, and it seems to be the best for your game, that cowboy shooters want, need, or will embrace it as well.

Any match Regional and above has to us rank points no choice, under the old rules. Also of all people have an open mind, this type of scoreing pits a cowboy against a cowboy not a cowboy against a FC so the only ones your really shooting against is your category unless your the fastest, then you win all the stage points and the overall match. The bottom line to this game is to shoot fast and clean with no mistakes regardless of the scoring system.

 

KK

[Noz]

Stage point scoring? Honestly I think it is a solution in search of a problem.

 

 

 

You hit her right on the nose, Griz.

 

Everybody shoots the same stages. They all have the same opportunity to hit or miss each target and receive such penalties the rules require for their improper actions.

Total time is simple, easily understood, easily computed and can be used for overall scoring and scoring within categories with no penalties being automatically assessed for shooting in a category that is inherently slower than the hot shots.

[Your Nemesis]

I guess I am just to simple minded to see why total score is not the easy answer. I for example shot a match in CO. this past summer. Although I shot

 

faster overall than the person that got second he beet me due to rank scoring. It just seems to me that it is much like scoring a test on the curve.

 

I never liked it when they did that in school either. I believe all scoring should be total time. It seems simple to me and low time wins. I am with the post

 

above. If it takes multiple articles to explain it, it is way to involved. Any race of any kind I have ever been in has been first wins (best time). I do not

 

see SASS as any thing other than a race. I do not shoot real fast nor do I go to a match expecting to place. But in the event that I do, or someone

 

faster than messes up and I do place I want the win. IMHO

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I am not sure how much this relates, but I have been to big shoots (over 150 shooters) that did rank point scoring within categories for awards. Some really weird things can happen. Went to one large shoot where the weather was pretty bad the first day. So bad, that over a third of the shooters stayed home the second day. Some of these shooters that stayed home were top shooters and had very low rank points through 6 stages the first day. Home in some cases were just RVs parked on the range, that is how bad the weather was. They did not attend the second day with 4 last stages, and got maximum rank points for stages on the second day, since they did not attend. When awards were handed out in some categories, these top shooters in the categories got awards over folks that braved some pretty awful weather the second day (blowing ice, high winds and sub freezing temps). I know several of these shooters that shot both days and braved some pretty bad that weather have never gone back to this major shoot. Since then the shoot changed the rules and said you had to shoot both days to get awards, but the shoot was tainted for many years in the eyes of the shooters that felt they got "cheated". I hope this new scoring system does not allow something like this to happen.

 

In my mind the big issue with rank scoring within a category is that for it to work well, it needs a high number of shooters in the category.

 

You have to remember IIMHO the main reason for rank points or anything beyond total time is really to force folks to show up for awards, since only the computer knows who wins and where everyone else places.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

There is absolutely NO reason to convelute TOTAL TIME scoring with some other ridiculous formula that requires complicated mathematical formulas to render competitor placement, when SIMPLE math will do the job fairly, easily, and understandable.

 

Rank points is simply an unfair method, (In many cases), and Stage Point Scoring is simply a solution looking for a problem. Total time makes far more sense than any of the "POINT" systems used or proposed. Easily understood, fair, and easily implemented. Simply a NO BRAINER.

 

RBK

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

I like how this thread wandered from 'what is stage point scoring' to rank time vs total time. To rank points stink. Didn't take long.

 

I think we found a new way to grandma's, kids. Strap in. It's going to be a fun ride.

[Lankyframe #44046]

More conveluted math equations drummed up by somebody that can't win any other way. What's next a different scoring system for each category?

Kind of like obamacare, something we don't like or want is getting shoved down our throats. Total time is all we need

[Griff]

Sot it's true... some folks just don't like to get hung, even if it's a new rope. IMNSHO, total time as a scoring method... is simply an excuse for a lack of imagination in not trying to make significantly different stages from having disportionate impacts of the outcome. If one stage has an optimal time of 18 seconds, and another stage has an optimal time of 24 seconds depending on movement and/complexity of the shooting problem... should not the relative finishes attained by folks have some parity, irrespective of the simple gap in time? Total time has it's place... 6 stages of stand and deliver 10-10-2... oh yeah, that sounds like a fun match... A few 10-10-4, or even a 10-9-6 or two with movement and at least 2 or more shooting positions lends itself to a much more interesting match... And, since target size and distance are so sancrosant; ergo shooting skill has been removed as an element in favor of pure speed in firearm manipulation... I can certainly see that anything that interfers with that concept as a scoring methodology is obviously abhorrent.

 

But, let's focus on the scoring method... to the exclusion of other matters.

 

 

 

You have to remember IIMHO the main reason for rank points or anything beyond total time is really to force folks to show up for awards, since only the computer knows who wins and where everyone else places.

And that's necessarily a "bad" thing?

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

Type of scoring makes no difference to me. Shooting clean is the best I can do now, movement speed is gone.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I think a simple solution for the disparity within category is to use TT for category and RP for overall. Everybody's ox can be gored, and we don't need to implement a new system. It might be workable, but let's allow ACES to get a solid foothold before we start changing things? Once ACES is universal, it can probably be adapted to about any new method of compiling the information that has been entered.

 

CR

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

I think a simple solution for the disparity within category is to use TT for category and RP for overall. Everybody's ox can be gored, and we don't need to implement a new system. It might be workable, but let's allow ACES to get a solid foothold before we start changing things? Once ACES is universal, it can probably be adapted to about any new method of compiling the information that has been entered.

 

CR

It is already a part of ACES.

 

KK

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Stage Point Scoring is great. I've been using it for our Wild Bunch matches for several months. Not hard, the computer does the work. What this method of scoring does is combine Total Time and Rank Point. It is the best of both worlds, IMHO. Many here believe in Total Time. That's great. However, as the venerable Griff posted above, not all stages are created equal. That's where Rank Point comes in, and many here believe just as strongly in this method of scoring.

 

I like SPS. Before you bash it so, maybe you should give it a try. And the criticism about the article being in four parts...really? Did you ever think it was done that way due to layout issues? Build anticipation? I've seen MANY articles published over several months and have not seen one complaint. Get a life folks.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Whatever.............

[John E. Law]

Personally I like total time, but I don't think the WB will ever budge on implimenting it for major matches. I have yet to be scored in an actual match with the SPS but I think it will be a much better system than Rank Point, at least from what I have read and what has been explained to me. It sounds like a fair compromise of both systems.

 

JEL

[Fordyce Beals]

If all stages in a match are different how does that change that the shooter with the least time (raw time plus misses and added penalties) did better (faster on the score sheet) then anyone else and is the most skilled at fast and accurate shooting?

 

H3ll if I know!!!

 

Fordyce

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

If all stages in a match are different how does that change that the shooter with the least time (raw time plus misses and added penalties) did better (faster on the score sheet) then anyone else and is the most skilled at fast and accurate shooting?

 

H3ll if I know!!!

 

Fordyce

I'm sorry but that makes way to much sense Each miss is 5 seconds and each procedure is 10 seconds for everyone, and we use a timer for how long it takes to shoot the stage. Doesn't matter what category you are in, how long or short the stage was, or how tall or fat you were when you shot that stage We don't have a 10 ring or center knockouts with a different point value, that's why TT works, time and time again. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

It's going to cause some heartache when those anomalies occur but over all I like it better than RP.

 

Stan

[Most Wanted]

Griff points out that not all stages are equal but neither are the shooters . Some may find that a "fast stage" was harder due to the fact that they don't move so fast or run guns fast but may excel at a " slow stage" because they are very acurate and can put eight thruogh their shotgun better than most . We all shoot the same stage . Anything other than TT is a form of hadicapping and or averaging . And yes to the question is it a bad thing if they use rank points to have more people at the awards .

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Stage Point Scoring is great. I've been using it for our Wild Bunch matches for several months. Not hard, the computer does the work. What this method of scoring does is combine Total Time and Rank Point. It is the best of both worlds, IMHO. Many here believe in Total Time. That's great. However, as the venerable Griff posted above, not all stages are created equal. That's where Rank Point comes in, and many here believe just as strongly in this method of scoring.

 

I like SPS. Before you bash it so, maybe you should give it a try. And the criticism about the article being in four parts...really? Did you ever think it was done that way due to layout issues? Build anticipation? I've seen MANY articles published over several months and have not seen one complaint. Get a life folks.

Oops! The dreaded "get a life" has been invoked. End of discussion.