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IAC Norinco 1893/97 illegal for Cowboy Matches but legal for Wild Bunch matches...


Diamond_Jack

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Are we confusing the model 93 and a SOLID FRAME model 97? A Solid Frame was the original design and wasn't changed till the take down version. I could be mistaken. The solid frame is lighter and harder to come by but really cool looking and great shooting gun. I use a "C" model built in 1900 solid frame and I love it.

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Are we confusing the model 93 and a SOLID FRAME model 97? A Solid Frame was the original design and wasn't changed till the take down version. I could be mistaken. The solid frame is lighter and harder to come by but really cool looking and great shooting gun. I use a "C" model built in 1900 solid frame and I love it.

No. The Winchester Model 93 was the predecesor to the Model 97. Even before the days of rampant litigation like we have now, the guns were dangerous to the point that Winchester actually offered to trade Model 93s for the new 97 when it came out. That is one of the reasons original 93s are relatively scarce. The modern 93/97 has 97 guts with a 93 style receiver.

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No. The Winchester Model 93 was the predecesor to the Model 97. Even before the days of rampant litigation like we have now, the guns were dangerous to the point that Winchester actually offered to trade Model 93s for the new 97 when it came out. That is one of the reasons original 93s are relatively scarce. The modern 93/97 has 97 guts with a 93 style receiver.

 

Thanks.....sometimes it gets confusing because we are talking about 3 different guns, sorta, the 93, the 93/97 solid frame and the 93/97 (Which I consider "THE" 97) takedown version. Still, these are cool guns and it's impressive to watch a guy that can really make one run. AS for the IAC version, I have one and as we hope SASS to grow, the 97 will be in short supply. I think that's part of the reason for the model 12 in WB (which is another cool gun). If it wasn't for A.Ubirti we would all have a hard time finding enough 73's to go around as well. There is no advantage to shooting an IAC. If we want to grow our sport we have to have enough good guality guns to supply new shooters.

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Thanks.....sometimes it gets confusing because we are talking about 3 different guns, sorta, the 93, the 93/97 solid frame and the 93/97 (Which I consider "THE" 97) takedown version. Still, these are cool guns and it's impressive to watch a guy that can really make one run. AS for the IAC version, I have one and as we hope SASS to grow, the 97 will be in short supply. I think that's part of the reason for the model 12 in WB (which is another cool gun). If it wasn't for A.Ubirti we would all have a hard time finding enough 73's to go around as well. There is no advantage to shooting an IAC. If we want to grow our sport we have to have enough good guality guns to supply new shooters.

 

You are still confused.

 

Winchester made the 93, with the large port, that was discontinued in 1897. The Winchester 97 was made between 1897 and 1957. The Winchester 97 was offered in many configurations in both solid fames and takedown models.

 

About 11 years ago reproduction solid frame Chinese made models called 93/97's, 97's and Trench Guns started coming into the US form several imports over the years.

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You are still confused.

 

Winchester made the 93, with the large port, that was discontinued in 1897. The Winchester 97 was made between 1897 and 1957. The Winchester 97 was offered in many configurations in both solid fames and takedown models.

 

About 11 years ago reproduction solid frame Chinese made models called 93/97's, 97's and Trench Guns started coming into the US form several imports over the years.

 

You betcha Wyatt and thanks. Not really confused, just learning. There are, from what I know, 8 different configurations, Solid Frame standard, Take down standard, Pigion grade, Trap grade, Tournament grade, and Trench gun. They did also offer some with upgraded features like a slim checkered forestock and butt stock and I think?? you could even order one, more or less, custom ordered. After making over a million I can see where there is a lot of room for variations but the 8 I listed are the ones most grading books go by.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, December 11, 2013 - Libel
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, December 11, 2013 - Libel

Never say never! I remember that the Henry Big Boy was not allowed, was adamantly outlawed by the WB, voted down by the TG's all the while being touted by Henry as the perfect rifle for CAS..........................and then it was OK. :huh:

 

Feels like a kickback was paid. Or call it sponsorship, contribution to the cause, one time dues. As long as the $$$ stays on the books and not hid from the IRS it's just shrewd marketing. Possibly the same course of events followed the 93/97 situation.

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..

 

Feels like the same old BS "conspiracy" theory that's been around ever since the Henry was approved for use.

If you weren't there, you have no first hand knowledge of what may have happened (or not)...in either case.

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The 93/97 is just a 97 with the frame cut like a 93. :)

There is no more advantage in a 93/97 then there is in any short stroked gun :blink:

 

Its all political :huh:

Nothing to do with safety :wacko:

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Were any of the 93/97 Chinese clones made like the 93 with the cut away for shell extraction? Is that what they call 93/97? If so, is that why CAS dosen't want them used? I think I could get my head around that. But, I have seen Winchesters that have had an out of battery discharge by the shell getting pinched in the opening and the right side ejector acting like a firing pin. It happened to my dad. Of course I don't think the designers at Winchester had CAS in mind especially loading they we do.

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All the 93/97s had the circular cut out. Without the cut out it is a 97.

 

So far as I know there are only 3 Chinese variants. 93/97, 97, and 97 trenchgun.

 

All are solid frame. There have been zero Chinese take down models.

 

So I understand, it's the 93/97 that CAS has an Issue with and the 97 Trench gun. Is it ok to use the standard IAC 97?

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Hi Folks,

 

The banning of the 93/97 is due to the perceived competitive advantage. It is my understanding that it had nothing to do with safety.

 

The Marlin '97 was banned due to a safety concern. I saw the results of one of these guns coming apart at an annual match. The blood was not a pretty sight. Luckily the shooter lived without major injury. After that event, these guns were banned in my area of California, years before the WB edict that they were not allowed in SASS matches.

 

About bad feelings, I happen to know that Coyote Cap is respected by some (maybe all) members of the Wild Bunch (WB). He even taught seminars at the 2013 SASS Convention.

 

Diamond Jack, you've made your wishes known to Hipshot and he took the time to call you back to explain the WB's position about an item that has been a "dead horse" for years. I think that was very nice of him.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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And you can use the trench gun, the 93/97, and the model 12 in WB.

 

And you still can't use a sling or bayonet on the trench gun in WB.

 

...and, for the record, long gun slings & revolver lanyards are LEGAL for CAS.

it will be so noted in the 2014 version of the SHB (Firearms Covenants)

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Can you do that without breaking the 170º at any point during the drop/swing/recovery??

<_<

 

IMO...reaching the end of the lanyard is the "final resting place"...apply the RULE as necessary (SHB p.19)

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I have to agree that the idea that if the 93/97 is allowed that someone would try, and succeed to get a real 93 to the line, is at best, weak.

 

I have a 93/97, and it is very clearly marked as such. There are also various markings on it that would not appear on a real 93. There are also makrings on a real 93 that are not to be found on a 93/97. There is no way that anyone who can read would mistake one for the other, just by looking at it.

 

I mean, who can't tell the difference between a Colt, an Uberti and a USFA just by taking a few seconds to look at them?

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I have to agree that the idea that if the 93/97 is allowed that someone would try, and succeed to get a real 93 to the line, is at best, weak.

 

I have a 93/97, and it is very clearly marked as such. There are also various markings on it that would not appear on a real 93. There are also makrings on a real 93 that are not to be found on a 93/97. There is no way that anyone who can read would mistake one for the other, just by looking at it.

 

I mean, who can't tell the difference between a Colt, an Uberti and a USFA just by taking a few seconds to look at them?

I can't recall the last time I read someone's firearm.

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Winchester banned the 1893 because it was not strong enough for smokeless powder, the firing pin, and the shell flag. The Wild Bunch banned the 1893 because of personal conflict. The Coyote Cap 93/97 is stronger than a 97. The opening/ejection port IS bigger than the 97. The Coyote Cap 93/97 is simply a 93 with all the fixes done to make it a 97. And then some. The 93 has all the improvements/changes made to the 97 up to the 50s. I have one. The stories about the 93 firing out of battery because something quits working just as a 97 will do. In this case the shell flag will not rise allowing the round to get out of line. Ask Handle Bar Doc.

Keep trying to get it approved. Probably a lost cause.

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Thanks everyone, very good information and I learned a lot.

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Stumpman

 

if ya get up the NW AR , give me a shout , I know where there is one to show you the differances

 

Chickasaw

 

Thanks Friend and I will. And like some of the others I think I would like to add a 93 just to have it in my collection. And if any knows of a Winchester Trench gun with matching bayonette I would be interested in one as well.

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:blink:

 

that is a Tall order , BE advised , there are a lot of FAKE Marical marked 97s floating around

 

I saw several at the last gun show I went to .

 

If , you did not know what to look for , it would have been pretty easy to be had

 

Chickasaw Bill

 

I've done a lot of homework and dad has been collecting since he was a kid. Plus I have all you cowboys and it's not like I need it today but I will NEED them. :D

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Tex has said many times that it was an early mistake to allow pump guns in the game, so perhaps this is a retroactive fix. With the Chicoms now out of the game attrition can once again take its course. I think that plan has now switched to blue jeans! Any of you guys hear that they are causing some health problems for guys who wear them to tight? Add that to the fact that guys are perceived to move faster when wearing jeans and... :wacko:

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AHHH but I have seen it frequently said that the '97s are no longer being produced, count China out. Wasnt there talk of a shipment supposed to be manufactured for import this past spring that never materialised? There are likely enough of the guns to go around unless there occurs some great resurgence in membership. If the number of guns being used falls below a certain level, it would then be an easy matter to just disqualify them for SASS use!

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Long winter, already..........

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