Gunfighters can't be different?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Bob,

 

Just break the string down into a 10 shot progression, just like your rifle.

 

Then think about how the instructions state that each of the 10 shots must go down range.

 

Usually stage writers will break that into instructions for a five shot sequence that will repeat itself (with first pistol, repeat with second), or they make it easy and give you a 10 shot sequence (progressive sweep, 10 shot dump).

 

Then, all you have to figure out is getting your hands to point the guns where you want 'em, when you want 'em in order to hit the targets in the sequence you want 'em.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Bob,

It's not REALLY that hard. We just have to do what the stage instructions say, just like everybody else. However, we do, sometimes, choose to shoot a sequence in a way that would be slower or more difficult for a two-hand gripper. They could shoot it the same way we do, but choose not to. e.g. If the scenario says shot 5 targets one time each and repeat instructions, most traditional style shooters will sweep twice, while I am likely to do an outside-in sweep, then an inside-out sweep. Both sequences fulfill the stage requirements.

 

Possum

[Madd Mike #8595]

sometimes I think folks burn up too many brain cells "over" thinking gun fighter

I keep it simple for the most part

 

I keep it simple for the counters too, I do not like to confuse them on purpose

that can git cha 10 seconds sometimes....

[Buckhorn Bud]

My problem comes with the idea that once a stage is written which allows so many interpretations as to how it can be shot, that applies to everyone but the Gunfighter. I can not get past the idea that the gate can be left open for everyone but the Gunfighter. Creekers explanation seems to bring in the "Gunfighter must" rule in focus best for me but my God, a Gunfighter must really be smart to address all of the possibilities so quickly. On a loosely written stage each shooter selects from many variables that might affect his choice but the Gunfighter must not only decide which shooting sequence best serves him, as the stage is written, he must then think a spell on whether any other shooter could under ANY possible scenario shoot it in that same order also, whew! I have never shot Gunfighter and I can see now that my old geezer brain would never allow me to!

You're mostly right Bob. Gunfighter has to plan out his approach to the stage more carefully. That's part of the challenge that appeals to me. As long as the gunfighter keeps in mine 1st 5... 2nd 5... the rest is just determining the sequence that won't get him/her tied into knots.

 

Straight Arrow is also correct. Gunfighters have the same options as everyone else.

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

Thing to remember is a gunfighter can shoot the pistols in any sequence, but must engage the targets the same as everyone else. The pistols can be alternated, or shot singly until empty, or any combination thereof. The key element is the target sequence, not the specific pistol sequence.

Really pretty simple if you member this.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

My problem comes with the idea that once a stage is written which allows so many interpretations as to how it can be shot, that applies to everyone but the Gunfighter. I can not get past the idea that the gate can be left open for everyone but the Gunfighter. Creekers explanation seems to bring in the "Gunfighter must" rule in focus best for me but my God, a Gunfighter must really be smart to address all of the possibilities so quickly. On a loosely written stage each shooter selects from many variables that might affect his choice but the Gunfighter must not only decide which shooting sequence best serves him, as the stage is written, he must then think a spell on whether any other shooter could under ANY possible scenario shoot it in that same order also, whew! I have never shot Gunfighter and I can see now that my old geezer brain would never allow me to!

Hi Bob,

 

I don't see it exactly that way. See my post 56. All of those options are open to a GF.

 

Also, Gunfighters are at a distinct advantage in complicated continuous sweeps as they do not have to draw a second pistol. For example with a Lawrence Welk or Progressive sweep 1 22 333 4444, everyone except a GF can be said to shoot 1 22 33 (or 1 2 2 shots) with first pistol then 3 4444 (or 1 4 shots) with the second pistol. This can be tricky for new folks.

 

I think many GFs enjoy the challenge of determining where they can turn a stage to their advantage. That is part of the category's draw. I'm not sure I'm smart enough to shoot GF.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Madd Mike #8595]

I think that any gunfighter advantange due to both pistols out at the same time are

negated by

• alternating sight pictures (shot to shot in most cases)

• cocking and then shooting both pistols single handed (non supported)

• holstering two pistols at the same time, tying up both hands, preventing a simultaneous transition
  to long gun in most stage design

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I think that any gunfighter advantange due to both pistols out at the same time are

negated by

• alternating sight pictures (shot to shot in most cases)

• cocking and then shooting both pistols single handed (non supported)

• holstering two pistols at the same time, tying up both hands, preventing a simultaneous transition

  to long gun in most stage design

 

 

 

Allie,

 

Mike has it right. Any high primer or rough cylinder action cannot be easily overcome with only the hammer to work the action. Folks who shoot one at a time can be doing something productive with their other hand, i.e. grabbing shell or a long gun. Both guns need to be holstered before another phase can begin. There are times when much of this can be offset by choosing a clever way to shoot the stage, but more often than not, it takes longer to perform the other actions than you gain.

 

CR

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Allie,

 

Mike has it right. Any high primer or rough cylinder action cannot be easily overcome with only the hammer to work the action. Folks who shoot one at a time can be doing something productive with their other hand, i.e. grabbing shell or a long gun. Both guns need to be holstered before another phase can begin. There are times when much of this can be offset by choosing a clever way to shoot the stage, but more often than not, it takes longer to perform the other actions than you gain.

 

CR

Got it!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I actually enjoy trying to confuse the spotters every now and then, usually backfires tho.....

 

NO advantage to shoot GF, loss of transitions...

 

Coolest way to shoot the pistols, BUT also the HARDEST!

 

pb

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Switching from shooting in the double duelist style to the gunfighter style...I had to relearn my transitions...Not overly complicated, it is just that your hands are doing different things now...

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

My problem comes with the idea that once a stage is written which allows so many interpretations as to how it can be shot, that applies to everyone but the Gunfighter. I can not get past the idea that the gate can be left open for everyone but the Gunfighter. Creekers explanation seems to bring in the "Gunfighter must" rule in focus best for me but my God, a Gunfighter must really be smart to address all of the possibilities so quickly. On a loosely written stage each shooter selects from many variables that might affect his choice but the Gunfighter must not only decide which shooting sequence best serves him, as the stage is written, he must then think a spell on whether any other shooter could under ANY possible scenario shoot it in that same order also, whew! I have never shot Gunfighter and I can see now that my old geezer brain would never allow me to!

Slowhand, your comment reminds me of what I often tell folks: We gunfighters appreciate that many assume we're particularly smart, but the fact is we consider target order options just like you or anyone else might with 10 shots from a rifle on a stage that allows options. The "secret" to gunfighting is learning to automatically cock the pistols. It might seem like rocket science until you figure out that at some point in time we all learned to pedal a bicycle (left pedal down, right pedal down, left pedal down) ...which is all we're doing with pistols. Once a person learns to cock pistols without having to think about it...gunfighting is mostly whupped. I learned to "pedal" my pistols during commercials while watching TV.

 

Where's that caveman? I could teach him to do it!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Actually GF is much easier to understand than most folks think, it's as simple as counting to 5. I often hear "there's no way I could that" my generic reply is "can you count to 5?? If you can count to 5 you can shoot GF or easily spot for a GF. Take a simple stage....."With pistols shoot two 2-1-2 sweeps on the three pistol targets. For this stage 1 is red 2 is black 3 blue. Most of us either count in our head while shooting or spotting two ways. One is 1,2---3----4,5. the other is 1,2----1----1,2. When a two hander shoots this stage they will mostly sweep from the same end depending on how they want to transiton. 1,2---3----4,5........1,2---3----4,5. Or 1,2----1----1,2..........1,2----1----1,2. Now, when we shoot this with the rifle most shooters will double up on the third target hitting it four times, the GF will most likely do the same thing. 1,2---3----4,5,1,2------3-----4,5. All you need to remember when spotting is the target sequnce, not what gun they are using, and just count to 5.......Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

It's really not that hard, I tend to look at it like shooting the rilfle, ten shots,,, and I count the same way as the rifle.....

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Wait! No!!!

 

Gunfighter is almost impossible and only super-geniuses should even attempt it. And even then, only the most coordinated and physically gifted can succeed. Oh yeah, you have to be good-looking, too!

 

Possum

[Buckhorn Bud]

Actually GF is much easier to understand than most folks think, it's as simple as counting to 5. I often hear "there's no way I could that" my generic reply is "can you count to 5?? If you can count to 5 you can shoot GF .....

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

I would agree if you include the disclaimer that you have to be able to shoot dualist with your weak hand as well as the strong. It also takes a lot of practice until the recocking becomes automatic. The problem then becomes that recocking can only be automatic for 5 rounds incase the pistols are split.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Wait! No!!!

 

Gunfighter is almost impossible and only super-geniuses should even attempt it. And even then, only the most coordinated and physically gifted can succeed. Oh yeah, you have to be good-looking, too!

 

Possum

Dang it all, then I'm the onliest shooter in SASS that should be shooting GF!!!!!!!!!! LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[colbutch]

Pistols are a shooting string just like the rifle is a shooting string. If a two handed shooter chooses, they could shoot once with their left pistol, holster, shoot once with their right, holster, shoot one with left, etc. until they have fired ten rounds. Of course, any two handed shooter in their right mind wouldn't, but they could. When a stage writer writes "with first pistol," it means "with first five rounds of the pistol string."

 

There were many ways to shoot this stage and meet the criteria for the stage instructions. When there is more than one target order option available, the gunfighter must choose an order that is AVAILABLE to the other shooters. It might be an order that is different than a two handed shooter or duelist might ever choose, but they could if they wanted. In this case, the gunfighter shot it in an order that was not available to the other shooters. That's a procedural.

 

FWIW, I've seen a number of gunfighters literally interpret "with first pistol" and "with second pistol." This is not a new problem and it's easily fixed. Stage writers, don't say "with first pistol."

I'm not sure I understand this. A Gunfighter can't holster pistols with the intent of drawing again and continuing the shooting string. Are you saying a two handed shooter may shoot, holster, repeat...? If that was true wouldn't it change this whole argument because a two handed shooter could actually shoot it the same way (1st pistol target 1 then holster, 2nd pistol target 1 then holster ...etc. which is exactly what the stage instruction say) not that they would. I understand the Gunfighters must shoot the scenario in a way that is available to everyone else, which is why the statement about drawing and holstering for each shot seems wrong.

 

Butch

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I'm not sure I understand this.

Don't even try to.

NO ONE (two-handed, duelist or GF) would EVER do that.

...and if a stage was ever actually written to require doing so, the writer would likely be drag-hanged out of town.

 

A Gunfighter can't holster pistols with the intent of drawing again and continuing the shooting string. Are you saying a two handed shooter may shoot, holster, repeat...? If that was true wouldn't it change this whole argument because a two handed shooter could actually shoot it the same way (1st pistol target 1 then holster, 2nd pistol target 1 then holster ...etc. which is exactly what the stage instruction say) not that they would. I understand the Gunfighters must shoot the scenario in a way that is available to everyone else, which is why the statement about drawing and holstering for each shot seems wrong.

 

Butch

[colbutch]

I agree nobody would ever write a stage this way, my question comes from the statement that a two handed shooter could if they chose to draw one pistol and fire it once, holster and then draw the other pistol and fire it once, then holster and continue that for 10 rounds? That is specifically outlawed for Gunfighters, to holster and redraw the guns to finish a shooting string. I would imagine that shooting and holstering and redrawing as described above is not allowed for any style of shooting.

 

Butch

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Butch, you ever see someone holster a pistol and everyone holler out one more?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I agree nobody would ever write a stage this way, my question comes from the statement that a two handed shooter could if they chose to draw one pistol and fire it once, holster and then draw the other pistol and fire it once, then holster and continue that for 10 rounds? That is specifically outlawed for Gunfighters, to holster and redraw the guns to finish a shooting string. I would imagine that shooting and holstering and redrawing as described above is not allowed for any style of shooting.

 

Butch

Howdy coltbutch, Yes a two hander could if they wanted to but it would be crazy. It does happen when a shooter shoots four and holsters, then the RO or spotters will hopefully give em a "One More" No a GF cannot do this..............we're getting way off topic here . Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I'm not sure I understand this. A Gunfighter can't holster pistols with the intent of drawing again and continuing the shooting string. Are you saying a two handed shooter may shoot, holster, repeat...? If that was true wouldn't it change this whole argument because a two handed shooter could actually shoot it the same way (1st pistol target 1 then holster, 2nd pistol target 1 then holster ...etc. which is exactly what the stage instruction say) not that they would. I understand the Gunfighters must shoot the scenario in a way that is available to everyone else, which is why the statement about drawing and holstering for each shot seems wrong.

 

Butch

That is what I'm saying. The reasoning behind a gunfighter not being able to holster is if they did, in a split pistol situation, they could accidentally cock the 6th round and holster a pistol that has a hammer (cocked even) over a live round. When a two handed shooter holsters a loaded pistol, it is typically after a brain fart in which they have shot only four. If they happen to be really quick and get the second pistol out and cocked, they can pickup shooting on the correct target (it is a shooting string), shoot five, then pull the first pistol and fire the tenth round. By doing so, they can avoid a P. If it happened to be their "second" pistol and have moved on to a long gun, the only penalty they suffer is the "miss" for the unfired round in the pistol...that is not over a live round.

 

As PWB has pointed out, there will soon be a change to RO2 clarifying what "first pistol" and "second pistol" means and it will be welcomed with open arms by me. We've seen this conversation/confusion on the Wire too many times.

 

FWIW, I do get how it can be confusing. The three times that stick in my mind in which this confusion took place at a match involved five pistol targets. Stage instruction said to place one round on each target with each pistol (or something similar.) Most shooters when given that option will shoot a sweep beginning on one end or the other and do the same with the last five rounds (the second pistol). The gunfighters who got confused double tapped a sweep from an end. I was one of the three. When I finished, the TO says you just shot a P and for a brief moment I thought, "Huh?" before saying, "Yep, I did." Apparently that day I had taken a Duh pill and it worked. Typically, given the same instructions, I would shoot 1,2,3,4,5,5,4,3,2,1. Sometimes, just because it's fun, I'll shoot 1,5,2,4,3,3,2,4,1,5.

 

PWB is correct, no two handed shooter in their right mind would do that.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...and a GF-style shooter would NOT be penalized for shooting 4 & holstering...as long as it was NOT done on purpose (i.e. "...with intent to engage another revolver sequence.").

REF: SHB p.13

 

A GF would be allowed to redraw & finish the current sequence without penalty (whether it is a single 5-shot revolver run or a 10-shot engagement)

[Buckhorn Bud]

PWB is correct, no two handed shooter in their right mind would do that.

 

Who ever said that two handed shooters are in their right mind?

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

I thought I was ok to start with. Easy Rider has taught me a lot. But saying Easy Rider taught me, though a 5 time world champ, is no basis for argument. I have got my RO1 pin but to be honest am rusty. Hey, I might only get to shoot every few months. And getting to shoot twice made it double the fun.

As to our posse marshal and everyone else that day, terrific bunch had a great time with them. Made new friends and strengthened others. I let the posse marshal make his call and lived with it.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I'm smart enough to shoot GF.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

I doubt that but any case aren't ya lovely.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

This shoot, holster, shoot, holster thing is turning into something I never meant it to be. When teaching RO classes, I do talk about it, but only to be sure that folks who are going to be TO's understand that if a shooter shoots four, holsters and cocks their second pistol, if the TO knows their stuff, they can save the shooter's behind. You can help them avoid shooting the wrong target and getting a P, but most importantly you can help prevent them from thinking they must go back to the first gun and holstering the cocked revolver. MANY people who are TO's do not know this. THE PISTOLS ARE A SHOOTING STRING.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I doubt that but any case aren't ya lovely.

Sucking up will not guarantee your posts a free pass when you are naughty. However, I might view them more favorably.

 

Oh, I forgot to read your tag line.

[colbutch]

...and a GF-style shooter would NOT be penalized for shooting 4 & holstering...as long as it was NOT done on purpose (i.e. "...with intent to engage another revolver sequence.").

REF: SHB p.13

 

A GF would be allowed to redraw & finish the current sequence without penalty (whether it is a single 5-shot revolver run or a 10-shot engagement)

OK, that makes sense, gunfighter wouldn't be punished for a brain fart either, which is good, and once the rule change is in print all this discussion should go away......However as it stands now if a two handed shooter is allowed to intentionally draw, fire, holster, redraw fire etc... where a gunfighter is not (which I understand completely do to safety concerns) Doesn't that mean that the Gunfighter in the OP did not shoot the stage in a manner that was unavailable to all shooters? even if nobody in their right mind would choose to shoot it that way they "could" shoot it that way therefore so could the original gunfighter. That is my question.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Sucking up will not guarantee your posts a free pass when you are naughty. However, I might view them more favorably.

 

Oh, I forgot to read your tag line.

You read right through me.

 

I wonder what the Flying Dutchman would say about all of this?

[colbutch]

Sorry Buck, not trying to turn it into new discussion, and like Pale Wolf said gunfighter would not be punished for accidently putting guns away, but we are talking about intentionally shooting that way by a two handed shooter... is it legal for them?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

You read right through me.

 

I wonder what the Flying Dutchman would say about all of this?

Nothing as I "read right through" him.

[Buckhorn Bud]

Sorry Buck, not trying to turn it into new discussion, and like Pale Wolf said gunfighter would not be punished for accidently putting guns away, but we are talking about intentionally shooting that way by a two handed shooter... is it legal for them?

 

No rule against it so it would be legal. On the other hand no reason to do it so no need for such a rule.

 

Does this put the gunfighter at a disadvantage? Only hypothetically.

[Calico Mary]

Dang it all, then I'm the onliest shooter in SASS that should be shooting GF!!!!!!!!!! LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

 

oh geez....I think I'm gonna hurl......