Gunfighters can't be different?

[Jimmy Frisco]

I'm trying to understand a ruling and I'm hoping you all can help me out. The stage has 3 square black pistol targets and one red round one. The stage instruction said, and I quote, "Revolver: Shoot each black square target once and the red circle 2 times with each revolver." Of course what I, and virtually every other shooter did was use their first pistol to shoot each of the 3 squares once and the circle twice, then repeat with the second pistol. The lone gunfighter in our posse shot the first square with his first pistol, then again with his second (essentially double tapping it, but with 2 separate revolvers), then moved to the second and third targets doing exactly the same thing, and finished by putting 4 shots on the round target. To my way of thinking, he precisely followed the letter of the stage instructions, but was eventually given a "P" for "not shooting it the way everybody else did". In looking at the SASS handbook, in the gunfighter section, it says "The Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario." I've never shot gunfighter so perhaps there are nuances I don't fully grasp. Is there an unwritten rule that I'm unaware of? Please, educate me. I want nothing more than to fully comprehend the ruling. Thanks

[Goody, SASS #26190]

You need to think of it as the first five shots must mimic what the first gun does for everyone else. If you would have shot s1 twice, s2 twice, s3 once with your first pistol you would have gotten a P as well

[Pit Bull Tex]

A gun fighter has to shoot it the same as everyone else.For get about first pistol and second pistol.The gun fighter will shoot his first five shots each of the 3 black targets once and the red one two times.With his second five shots he will shoot the 3 black targets once and the red one two times.You beat me Goody.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Goody said it. Our first five shots is equal to first pistol and our second five shots equal to second pistol. So our first five shots must follow the same instructions as your first five shots, etc.

[Jimmy Frisco]

So you're saying that it's not about what each pistol does, regardless of the wording of the stage description. It's all about the first 5 shots vs. the second 5 shots? So there's probably a clearer way to have written the stage instructions.

[Pit Bull Tex]

They could have just left out, with each revolver and put in and repeat.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Sounds like your gunfighter did it right to me. I woulda protested that call iffn I had been shooting gunfighter. They could have left out the "with each pistol" part, but they didn't.

[Jimmy Frisco]

Doesn't changing it from "with each revolver" to "and repeat" completely change the character of the stage instruction? It is exactly the words "with each revolver" that create my confusion over the call. Perhaps I tend to take language too literally.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

"With first 5 pistol shots, shoot each black target once and the red target twice. Repeat the instructions with the second 5 pistol shots."

 

I might have written it this way and maybe this is what the stage designer wanted to happen,

 

" With first 5 pistol shots, alternate between red target and each black target, starting on any target. Repeat instructions for second 5 pistol shots".

 

Anyone still using "first pistol/second pistol" or especially "first pistol-holster/second pistol-holster" in their stage instructions have not kept up with the times.

 

 

Fillmore

[Anvil Al #59168]

So you're saying that it's not about what each pistol does, regardless of the wording of the stage description. It's all about the first 5 shots vs. the second 5 shots? So there's probably a clearer way to have written the stage instructions.

 

 

GFer's need to know there rules in there category.

 

As they said. First 5 shots, 2nd 5 shots.

 

Wish stage writers would STOP putting in first pistol 2nd pistol.

It just confuses GFers that don't know the rules of the which they shoot.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Doesn't changing it from "with each revolver" to "and repeat" completely change the character of the stage instruction? It is exactly the words "with each revolver" that create my confusion over the call. Perhaps I tend to take language too literally.

 

 

It's also up to the GFer to KNOW the rules for the category they shoot.

[Jimmy Frisco]

You need to think of it as the first five shots must mimic what the first gun does for everyone else. If you would have shot s1 twice, s2 twice, s3 once with your first pistol you would have gotten a P as well

Had I shot s1 twice, s2 twice and s3 once with my first pistol, I would have absolutely deserved a P, because there is no convolution of the wording that could possibly justify that. But as I said, the gunfighter appeared to follow the instruction (as well as the SASS handbook interpretation) the letter. It's sounding more and more like an "unwritten" rule.

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

A spotter should be looking at the targets, not the shooter and his guns. If the sequence is shot out of order by any style shooter it is a "P". The main confusion I see with spotters and GF'ers is they expect a pause between the 5th and 6th shot.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Doesn't changing it from "with each revolver" to "and repeat" completely change the character of the stage instruction? It is exactly the words "with each revolver" that create my confusion over the call. Perhaps I tend to take language too literally.

The non-Gunfighter has to put 1 shot one each black target and 2 shots on the red target with his first 5 shots (first pistol). The Gunfighter has to do the same thing with his first 5 shots.

 

Go to page 13 of the Shooters Handbook...

 

Fillmore

[Black Tom]

Stage instructions were just fine. Shooter needs to understand his Cat. Easy way to think about it is the spotters should not have to see the shooter just the targets. Were the targets hit in the proper order. The answer in this case is no.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

P - each five shots, as mentioned, represents a pistol in the stage scenario. As soon as he double tapped the first target, he earned a P.

 

CR

[Russ T. Sites]

Doesn't changing it from "with each revolver" to "and repeat" completely change the character of the stage instruction? It is exactly the words "with each revolver" that create my confusion over the call. Perhaps I tend to take language too literally.

To me it doesn't matter if the instructions say 1st revolver , each revolver or repeat.. it all means the same first 5 shots then 2nd 5 shots

[Jimmy Frisco]

I understand what you all are saying, and I've read and re-read page 13 of the SASS shooter's handbook, but in this particular stage instruction, there is no sequence given....at least none that I can see. Only a certain number of shots from each pistol to be delivered, in no particular order, to specific targets. No sequence of hits, just a total number of hits per target, per gun. So if the counters see the correct number of hits on each target, without an expectation of some unstated sequence, doesn't that meet the criteria?

Maybe my issue here is coming from the fact that I taught my kids repeatedly that the worst reason for doing anything a certain way is because that's how everybody else does it. I'm often my own worst enemy.

[Jimmy Frisco]

To me it doesn't matter if the instructions say 1st revolver , each revolver or repeat.. it all means the same first 5 shots then 2nd 5 shots

I guess that's the answer then....it doesn't matter what the stage instructions say. There is an unwritten interpretation. Let me add at this point that the shooter in question was relatively new at shooting gunfighter.

[Chief Rick]

"Revolver: Shoot each black square target once and the red circle 2 times with each revolver."

Most shooters in SASS shoot with one revolver in their hand at a time, therefor the FIRST revolver (the equivalent of a gunfighter's first five shots) would be as described in the stage instructions. Depending on the layout of the targets, the red circle could have been double tapped first and then the black squares shot once each, or the black squares shot once each and then the red circles double-tapped, or shoot the red circle once then the three black targets and finish up with the red circle.

 

A gunfighter could shoot any of these scenarios and be safe, but just like with the shooter shooting one pistol at a time - as soon as a black square is double-tapped - ya got a "P".

 

Where a gunfighter could speed up (possibly) is by shooting the three black squares once, then shoot the red circle four times, and then shoot the three black squares again once each.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Had I shot s1 twice, s2 twice and s3 once with my first pistol, I would have absolutely deserved a P, because there is no convolution of the wording that could possibly justify that. But as I said, the gunfighter appeared to follow the instruction (as well as the SASS handbook interpretation) the letter. It's sounding more and more like an "unwritten" rule.

It IS a written rule! Please do not continue to argue this. You have already admitted you were confused. We are not confused. Trust us, we know what we are talking about. We have explained it to you multiple times. It is not that difficult.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

".

Where a gunfighter could speed up (possibly) is by shooting the three black squares once, then shoot the red circle four times, and then shoot the three black squares again once each.

Yep, that's how I woulda shot it........depending on the wind . Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

It was poor stage writing. As stated before "first revolver" needs to stop being used and replaced with "first five shots".

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Amen Brother Possum!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I've been shooting GF style for over 10 yrs and this has always, I say always, been understood!

 

We are patient with new shooters who question it because they are unfamiliar with the rules, however it gets old when someone keeps kicking against the prickers!

 

cpbc

[colbutch]

Yes as a Gunfighter we know it should be first 5 shots next five shots. The confusing part for new Gunfighters and even those who aren't Gunfighters is that the shooter followed the stage description exactly so you have to admit that stage writing is partly to blame. it doesn't change the fact that the shooter is responsible to know, but you gotta admit it could be confusing for new shooters.

 

Butch

[Madd Mike #8595]

It was poor stage writing. As stated before "first revolver" needs to stop being used and replaced with "first five shots".

yup

that is the OLD way to write a stage, pre-gunfighter way

[Waimea]

From the OP: "Shoot each black square target once and the red circle 2 times with each revolver."

 

From Page 13 in the Shooter's Handbook: "Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario."

 

It does not say anything about having to shoot it in the exact same way everyone else does.

 

The way this is written the GF DID shoot each black square target once and the red circle 2 times with each revolver.

He did NOT do it in the same sequence as single-handed shooters.

However, the sequence was not actually prescribed in the stage scenario.

 

How do you know that the stage writer didn't write it this way on purpose to give a GF the opportunity to shoot the stage differently?

Actually that happens around these parts.

 

I say he got robbed.

 

Now I understand why Wyatt asks lots of questions after the reading of each stage.

Personally, I wouldn't have even thought of shooting it the way the OP describes but I could've been talked into it real easy.

 

 

Waimea (Oulaw GF fer maybe 6 months now)

 

[Waimea]

Never mind

 

 

Waimea

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

Let me add something as I was there.

 

Don't blame the GF. It was his third match. He did great. He held the guns steady and on target. He got a P on this one stage as he didn't have enough ammo for the offered reshoot. He was offered a reshoot as the TO told him it was okay to double tap when no one else could double tap all of the black targets according to the scenario. (There were many ways to shoot it; but, I won't confuse the issue. However, it made for some interesting sequences.)

 

Don't blame the scenario writer. In the past you would rarely see the statement "first five shots and second five shots." The thing is most gunfighters have been coached/taught over time to understand that first gun, second gun must be interpreted as first five shots and second five shots.

 

BTW, this was called properly as the scenario writer/match director is a very-long-time GF.

 

Jimmy is a good man. He just hasn't been around long enough to have seen, heard, read all of the trials and tribulations we've been through to get a consistent understanding of GF rules.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Sounds like your gunfighter did it right to me. I woulda protested that call iffn I had been shooting gunfighter. They could have left out the "with each pistol" part, but they didn't.

Hi Slim,

 

We had three black targets and one red. You were to engage the three black once and the red twice. The GF started out by double tapping the black. So, no he did not do it right.

 

Like I said earlier there were many ways to shoot this. You could have single tapped the blacks then double tap the red like this with the first five shots. Black-black-black-red-red. Then with the second five shots double tap the red then single tap the black. Red-red-black-black-black. I wish I'd done it that way. Instead I shot black-black-black-red-red, black-black-black-red-red.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS I agree that it is a best practice to say shots instead of revolvers.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Pistols are a shooting string just like the rifle is a shooting string. If a two handed shooter chooses, they could shoot once with their left pistol, holster, shoot once with their right, holster, shoot one with left, etc. until they have fired ten rounds. Of course, any two handed shooter in their right mind wouldn't, but they could. When a stage writer writes "with first pistol," it means "with first five rounds of the pistol string."

 

There were many ways to shoot this stage and meet the criteria for the stage instructions. When there is more than one target order option available, the gunfighter must choose an order that is AVAILABLE to the other shooters. It might be an order that is different than a two handed shooter or duelist might ever choose, but they could if they wanted. In this case, the gunfighter shot it in an order that was not available to the other shooters. That's a procedural.

 

FWIW, I've seen a number of gunfighters literally interpret "with first pistol" and "with second pistol." This is not a new problem and it's easily fixed. Stage writers, don't say "with first pistol."

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Hi Folks,

 

Let me add something as I was there.

 

Don't blame the GF. It was his third match. He did great. He held the guns steady and on target. He got a P on this one stage as he didn't have enough ammo for the offered reshoot. He was offered a reshoot as the TO told him it was okay to double tap when no one else could double tap all of the black targets according to the scenario. (There were many ways to shoot it; but, I won't confuse the issue. However, it made for some interesting sequences.)

 

Don't blame the scenario writer. In the past you would rarely see the statement "first five shots and second five shots." The thing is most gunfighters have been coached/taught over time to understand that first gun, second gun must be interpreted as first five shots and second five shots.

 

BTW, this was called properly as the scenario writer/match director is a very-long-time GF.

 

Jimmy is a good man. He just hasn't been around long enough to have seen, heard, read all of the trials and tribulations we've been through to get a consistent understanding of GF rules.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

So there's not going to be a hanging? Dag-nabbit! I haven't been to a good neck strechin' in a long time! JImmy, welcome to the world of a gun in each hand fun.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Hi Folks,

 

 

Don't blame the scenario writer. In the past you would rarely see the statement "first five shots and second five shots." The thing is most gunfighters have been coached/taught over time to understand that first gun, second gun must be interpreted as first five shots and second five shots.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Allie Mo

good point, however, as a gunfighter in CAS, from the first day of its patent

NON-gunfighers posse counters and or TO, often argue, (or did in the past) first pistol - second pistol fall-er-all

back when, stages often stated "gunfighters MUST shoot this as a duelist", this played into that theme

 

these are all good points for folks to read and understand

many gunfighters do not fully understand

many others do not either

 

once again some of this thinking is from the past, all shooters should re-read the rule book / ro material every year, or atleast more often then they do, as we can not memorize it, we can just re-quaint oursleves with it from time to time, my self included

[Shorty Jack Hammer]

Glad I don't shoot gunfighter because this thread lost me a bit....so first shot (pistol one) blk target one, second shot (pistol 2) black target 2, third shot (pistol 1) black target 3, pistol 2 red target, pistol 1 red target......repeat?