U.S.A's only lead smelter shutting down

[Go West]

I just got an email saying the only lead smelter we have in the US is shutting down due to additional EPA requirements. Bottom line, if this is so, everyone's ammo will go up in price. Our military, police and our personal requirements. Is now the time to purchase whatever bullets we need in our lifetime or is this an overreaction?

[Three Foot Johnson]

I worked for 23 years at ASARCO's East Helena lead smelter before it ceased operations on April 4, 2001. Prior to that time, it was touted as being one of only five remaining lead smelters in the WORLD. It was open for 113 years, to the day, starting production on April 4, 1888. It also laid claim to having the longest continually operating blacksmith shop in the US.

 

Maybe should start experimenting with wooden bullets cut from hardwood dowels?

[Dash Caliber]

I dont know...where is this place located?...I get mine from scrap that come off extrusion ingots that come from New York State..so if your place is somewhere else then perhaps there is a is understanding....Oh and the price of lead is international to some extent and the far east....has a bunch of it....and as far as the EPA goes...it takes a lot of stupidity to pollute with a periodic table element...the whole lead shot thing is idiotic as well as the gun range pollution....I wouldn't panic just yet.

[BONEYARD BILL, SASS #39,030]

It was in Missouri - there was a thread about a week - 10 days ago about it.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The major lead producers right now are China and Peru. They will continue producing, not having an EPA to paint them into the high-cost corner. Will lead prices shoot up? Not all that much, maybe a little. Unless we get embargoed and one of those countries won't export to us. It's not like US lead was any cheaper on the market than imported lead.

 

We are more in danger from having California style lead bans imposed than from the cost of imported lead driving lead prices out of reach. And a ban would affect every shooter, not just fellow who did not stock up on a big stockpile of lead.

 

We have not mined tin in the US for probably 40 years, yet tin is still available - expensive, but available.

 

So, go buy a lifetime supply if you want (but a year's supply might be a good idea).

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

The Doe Run Company smelter in Herculaneum, Missouri, if I remember, was the smelter that just closed.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I just ordered 4,000 pounds.

 

It went up .04 a pound from last month.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

When guys like you do things like this ^^^

demand affects supply and the price does in fact go up.

same reason we cant find .22s or primers.

cc

[El Sabre]

CC, perhaps you should know that Anvil Al is the honcho at Lone Star Bullets and regularly puts in orders for lead alloy by the ton. Because he does things like this, a lot of us in Texas and elsewhere have access to high quality CAS bullets. Rock on, Al!

[Harvey Mushman]

CC, perhaps you should know that Anvil Al is the honcho at Lone Star Bullets and regularly puts in orders for lead alloy by the ton. Because he does things like this, a lot of us in Texas and elsewhere have access to high quality CAS bullets. Rock on, Al!

+1

[Charlie Whiskers]

It never ceases to amaze me with all the flap about lead getting into the soil.Where do those idiots think lead comes from.Sure isn't an underwater mine.Same with the Federal waterfowl ban on lead shot.Can't use it hunting ducks and geese in a grain field,but you can still use lead shot to hunt pheasant in the same fields.

[Outrider, SASS #72622]

The major lead producers right now are China and Peru. They will continue producing, not having an EPA to paint them into the high-cost corner. Will lead prices shoot up? Not all that much, maybe a little. Unless we get embargoed and one of those countries won't export to us. It's not like US lead was any cheaper on the market than imported lead.

 

We are more in danger from having California style lead bans imposed than from the cost of imported lead driving lead prices out of reach. And a ban would affect every shooter, not just fellow who did not stock up on a big stockpile of lead.

 

We have not mined tin in the US for probably 40 years, yet tin is still available - expensive, but available.

 

So, go buy a lifetime supply if you want (but a year's supply might be a good idea).

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

The Doe Run Company smelter in Herculaneum, Missouri, if I remember, was the smelter that just closed.

I have been turned away from one indoor range here (Arkansas) and one in Tulsa because I was shooting lead bullets. I think it has already started!

[Anvil Al #59168]

When guys like you do things like this ^^^

demand affects supply and the price does in fact go up.

same reason we cant find .22s or primers.

cc

 

 

Guy's like me?????

Well I would like to tell you about guys like you. But might get kicked off the forum.

 

My normal order is anywhere from 2 to 6 tons at a time.

And would be more like 10 tons at a time if I had the money on hand to pay for it.

I just delivered almost a ton of bullets just this weekend.

 

Those people that got them might be glad I have enough lead on hand to make them.

 

Maybe you should know what the heck you are talking about before you do.

 

.04 cents a pound does not sound like much until you have to order as much as I do.

It adds up fast.

I am not passing the price of lead increase onto my customers at this point.

Even thought my cost went up.

But then I guess, that is just like people like me to do that also. Guess that makes me a bad person.

[Anvil Al #59168]

CC, perhaps you should know that Anvil Al is the honcho at Lone Star Bullets and regularly puts in orders for lead alloy by the ton. Because he does things like this, a lot of us in Texas and elsewhere have access to high quality CAS bullets. Rock on, Al!

 

 

Thank You.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I have been turned away from one indoor range here (Arkansas) and one in Tulsa because I was shooting lead bullets. I think it has already started!

A lot of indoor ranges do not allow lead bullets. The claim is too much lead in the air for their exhaust system to properly handle.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A lot of indoor ranges do not allow lead bullets. The claim is too much lead in the air for their exhaust system to properly handle.

 

Not just a claim. They have an old exhaust system, and don't want to upgrade it to meet continuing EPA regulations that have gotten 10 TIMES tighter in the last few years. So, the range owner does the cheap thing for him - he makes his customers shoot bullets that are 5 times more expensive, instead of him tightening up his ventilation system to meet the new regulations.

 

A tough choice, and one that keeps me from using local indoor ranges.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Brooklyn Slim]

A stoopid question (which I seem to specialize in asking), but is there a practical alternative to lead for reloaders, and for the targets/distances we shoot at?

 

I guess the next step will be for the EPA to impose emission standards on blackpowder and smokeless propellants.

 

These fascists grudgingly acknowledge our right to bear arms, but they may next argue that we don't have a right to shoot anything from them.

 

B SLIM

[Bart Solo]

The Doe Run smelter closed because it couldn't compete on the world market if it had to spend the money the EPA wanted it to spend to reduce emissions. Among the lessons to be learned is lead is and will still available for sale in the US. If the Doe Run smelter was the only one left in the world, the cost of the EPA mandated clean up would have been absorbed by the owners of the smelter and passed on to we consumers.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

When guys like you do things like this ^^^

demand affects supply and the price does in fact go up.

same reason we cant find .22s or primers.

cc

WTH are you talk'n about?

Why don't you back up you assumption with some FACTS?

All you did with that remark was to throw a 'grenade', and then run off.

LG

[Blastmaster]

 

The Doe Run smelter closed because it couldn't compete on the world market if it had to spend the money the EPA wanted it to spend to reduce emissions. Among the lessons to be learned is lead is and will still available for sale in the US. If the Doe Run smelter was the only one left in the world, the cost of the EPA mandated clean up would have been absorbed by the owners of the smelter and passed on to we consumers.

 

 

 

Agree,

 

Lead,gasoline, electricity, food and whatever else consumers consume will ALWAYS be available. Just the price will change, usually upwards.

[Blastmaster]

 

A stoopid question (which I seem to specialize in asking), but is there a practical alternative to lead for reloaders, and for the targets/distances we shoot at?

B SLIM

 

 

Wax/rubber bullets.

[Blastmaster]

 

 

Not just a claim. They have an old exhaust system, and don't want to upgrade it to meet continuing EPA regulations that have gotten 10 TIMES tighter in the last few years. So, the range owner does the cheap thing for him - he makes his customers shoot bullets that are 5 times more expensive, instead of him tightening up his ventilation system to meet the new regulations.

 

A tough choice, and one that keeps me from using local indoor ranges.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Not the cheap thing, but the most afforable solution to the business. Don't worry, when the customer base starts declining because they have to spend more, then the business, will soon go away.

 

BTW, customer base decline will happen if the cost of the new ventilation system is passed along or the cost of the plated/jacketed bullets is mandated. Results will be the same.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Results will be the same? Don't think so. It is almost always better for the service provider to cover the costs of regulatory compliance.

 

Here's a back-of-the-envelope example:

 

Let's say the range owner was to need to spend $100,000 one time cost to add better filtration and fans to his range. He might want to recover that over about 3 years, so he might have to raise his prices for range time by about $40,000 a year if he were to upgrade the ventilation and let customers continue to shoot all lead or jacketed bullets without hassle.

 

Let's also say that he had about 500 customers like me, who would shoot 2500 rounds a year (that's only about 200 rounds a month). And let's say that he forced all of us to switch from 7 cents each lead bullets to 35 cents each all-copper bullets. The customers now pay an extra $350,000 a year for their ammo!

 

Had he increased his prices to cover the cost of the vent upgrade, that would have only cost us (the customer base) $40,000 a year, and we would be done paying for it in 3 years!

 

Results are almost never the same, that's one thing I've learned in engineering. You never know until you run the numbers.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

PS - Ok, now let's be really cynical and say that he makes 20% profit on the ammo he sells at his range, and of the customers who switch over to more expensive ammo half buy from the range. This now increases his ammo revenue by another $35,000 a year. Bottom line - he gets paid handsomely NOT TO UPGRADE the ventilation system. Of course he's not going to upgrade!

 

 

 

Not the cheap thing, but the most affordable solution to the business. ...

BTW, customer base decline will happen if the cost of the new ventilation system is passed along or the cost of the plated/jacketed bullets is mandated. Results will be the same.

[Tarheel Rifleman, SASS # 23477]

Doe Run was a primary smelter. There are still 16 secondary lead smelters in the US that process recycled lead.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Seems some stuff got deleted.

 

So one of my earlier post might not make a some of sense.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Seems some stuff got deleted.

 

So one of my earlier post might not make a some of sense.

Sorry Al,

 

The post that started it all was a rude, unnecessary slam on you. We don't need that kind of stuff here.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Doe Run was a primary smelter. There are still 16 secondary lead smelters in the US that process recycled lead.

 

Doe Run was a primary smelter. There are still 16 secondary lead smelters in the US that process recycled lead.

This.

Think about it: Lead has been mined and smelted for centuries. But now with the recycling craze, lead that has been used, is being re-used, so there's less demand for "new" lead.

 

Cholla

[Blastmaster]

Results will be the same? Don't think so. It is almost always better for the service provider to cover the costs of regulatory compliance.

 

Here's a back-of-the-envelope example:

 

Let's say the range owner was to need to spend $100,000 one time cost to add better filtration and fans to his range. He might want to recover that over about 3 years, so he might have to raise his prices for range time by about $40,000 a year if he were to upgrade the ventilation and let customers continue to shoot all lead or jacketed bullets without hassle.

 

Let's also say that he had about 500 customers like me, who would shoot 2500 rounds a year (that's only about 200 rounds a month). And let's say that he forced all of us to switch from 7 cents each lead bullets to 35 cents each all-copper bullets. The customers now pay an extra $350,000 a year for their ammo!

 

Had he increased his prices to cover the cost of the vent upgrade, that would have only cost us (the customer base) $40,000 a year, and we would be done paying for it in 3 years!

 

Results are almost never the same, that's one thing I've learned in engineering. You never know until you run the numbers.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

PS - Ok, now let's be really cynical and say that he makes 20% profit on the ammo he sells at his range, and of the customers who switch over to more expensive ammo half buy from the range. This now increases his ammo revenue by another $35,000 a year. Bottom line - he gets paid handsomely NOT TO UPGRADE the ventilation system. Of course he's not going to upgrade!

Wow!!!

 

Lets say it takes $500,000 to get the ventilation/filteration up to present day 'code',,, not better, but state of art and meets or exceeds all present day limits,, with no gurantee's that it will meet 'code' in five years.

 

Lets say you want a 10% ROR or probably 20% on your $500,000 new investment plus whatever else you put up for the original business.

 

Lets say you 500 shooters pay $10 per visit, shoot 100Rd/visit,,,, shoot 2500rd/yr each ==== $125,000/yr.. Customers will pay that anyway,,, lead or jacketed bullet usage.... a wash for economic analysis. Perhaps a few will drop out because of the extra ammo cost to go to jacketed.

 

Lets say, 90% of the customers buy their ammo at box stores,,, "cheaper". Thus, range ammo sales are what?

 

Lets say, your insurance absolutely forbids the customer to use 'remanufactured ammo',,, (reloads),, for liability reasons. That is what the Division of Wildlife does where I live.,, BTW, no hollow points or magnums per Division of Wildlife rules (splash back and destructive on backstops)..... BTW, DOW in the last couple years spent the $500,000 upgrade to their range to get into compliance.

 

I am trying to think, but pretty sure that the most common 'white box' ammo in 38special, 9mm, and ??? are jacketed at box stores. That is what most walk in customers would buy at box store. So, really, the majority of customers would be shooting jacketed bullets anyway. For the specialty shooter such as a Cowboy shooter that reloads and shoots lead, those are a minority of the customer base and from liabilty purposes, may or may not be allowed to shoot with their reloads. Perhaps you have an indoor range that is different.

 

So, can you afford a multi $100,000 investment ( think business loan with interest) to keep your means of income flowing? If so, invest and keep your business doors open.

 

PS, I don't think business really factor in what their customers may save in their economic analysis, to be spent else where. Businesses want to predict what potential inflow of money will go through their doors and what does it cost to keep the doors open AND does that pay better than putting the investment money into another investment opportunity that will pay better.

 

I may be wrong.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

I suppose one could always just by raw ore and home smelt it.