What is improper coaching?

[Red Rider Rudy]

The post that was takin off was mine. As it made matters worst, i had ask for it to be removed. All i wanted was to know if Improper Coaching was grounds for a Reshoot.

 

I had gotten my answer.

[Madd Mike #8595]

if a coach losses a game, aint that kinda like improper coaching?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Improper coaching would be any RO “assistance” given in ERROR (e.g. miscounting rounds fired & telling the shooter “one more!”)

 

OR

 

in an untimely manner (e.g. too late to correct a ‘problem’; after the shooter has fired the next gun) …that either Impedes the shooter’s progress (causes undue hesitation) during the stage and/or results in a procedural penalty.

Either of which would be legitimate grounds for a RESHOOT

REF: RO1 p.22

(see also Tex’s comments on page 11 of the Nov 2013 “Cowboy Chronicle”)

Classic example is the T/O-assisted “Trifecta”:

Shooter has a “bobble” with rifle; loses track of where he’s at in the order of target engagement’

T/O directs the shooter to continue on the WRONG target = PROCEDURAL

Shooter ends up on the correct target IF he would have shot in the proper order...all parties involved lose count of # of shots fired.

Shooter sets rifle down with a round remaining in the action = MSV + 5-seconds for the unfired round.

Total penalties = 25 seconds

 

Negating the MSV for the RESHOOT under such circumstances falls under the authority of the Match Director.

 

There is a specific exception to “coaching” that results in an unsafe (DQ) situation of which the shooter should be aware (e.g. telling the shooter to “MOVE!” with a cocked/loaded firearm). Shooter WOULD still get the penalty in that situation.

[Red Rider Rudy]

Improper coaching would be any RO “assistance” given in ERROR (e.g. miscounting rounds fired & telling the shooter “one more!”)

 

OR

 

in an untimely manner (e.g. too late to correct a ‘problem’; after the shooter has fired the next gun) …that either Impedes the shooter’s progress (causes undue hesitation) during the stage and/or results in a procedural penalty.

 

Either of which would be legitimate grounds for a RESHOOT

REF: RO1 p.22

(see also Tex’s comments on page 11 of the Nov 2013 “Cowboy Chronicle”)

 

Classic example is the T/O-assisted “Trifecta”:

Shooter has a “bobble” with rifle; loses track of where he’s at in the order of target engagement’

T/O directs the shooter to continue on the WRONG target = PROCEDURAL

Shooter ends up on the correct target IF he would have shot in the proper order...all parties involved lose count of # of shots fired.

Shooter sets rifle down with a round remaining in the action = MSV + 5-seconds for the unfired round.

Total penalties = 25 seconds

Negating the MSV for the RESHOOT under such circumstances falls under the authority of the Match Director.

 

There is a specific exception to “coaching” that results in an unsafe (DQ) situation of which the shooter should be aware (e.g. telling the shooter to “MOVE!” with a cocked/loaded firearm). Shooter WOULD still get the penalty in that situation.

Thanks for making this clear!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

The post that was takin off was mine. As it made matters worst, i had ask for it to be removed. All i wanted was to know if Improper Coaching was grounds for a Reshoot.

 

I had gotten my answer.

Shucks, we just now got to page 3 ................hold on to yer hat Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Krazy Kajun]

I got a "Trifecta" just with my rifle once....but it was my own fault. A good pard was running the timer and he told me before I made the shot that I was aiming at the wrong target. But NOOOOOO, I thought I had it right and went on. Got my Trifecta and a Fido's Ass badge all the same day.

 

Kajun

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

We were gonna name the "Trifecta" after one of our local shooters who had TWO in the same match...one assisted & one all on his own.

 

FWIW - Some of the rule changes/clarifications ARE often 'named' for the individuals who 'inspired' a particular reg (sometimes used as ROC 'shorthand' during discussions)...fortunately (for them) they aren't published in the rulebooks as such.

 

 

[Grizzly Dave]

I have to wonder what is named after me, can't be good

 

So for the purpose of this discussion, does 'RO'

 

Improper coaching would be any RO “assistance” given in ERROR (e.g. miscounting rounds fired & telling the shooter “one more!”)

 

mean specifically the TO only, or does it include the spotters as well?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I have to wonder what is named after me, can't be good

 

So for the purpose of this discussion, does 'RO'

 

mean specifically the TO only, or does it include the spotters as well?

Howdy Dave, IMHO that would include the spotters if they holler "one more" and caused you delay. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

fortunately (for them) they aren't published in the rulebooks as such.

 

What about the folks that are on "The List"?? Not gonna use any names just a few of their initials "Fillmore Coffins" "Grizzly Dave" "Wyatt" And how many demerits does it take to make "The List"?? I'm down to two demerits now, right??

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

What about the folks that are on "The List"?? Not gonna use any names just a few of their initials "Fillmore Coffins" "Grizzly Dave" "Wyatt" And how many demerits does it take to make "The List"?? I'm down to two demerits now, right??

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I have to wonder what is named after me, can't be good

 

So for the purpose of this discussion, does 'RO'

 

mean specifically the TO only, or does it include the spotters as well?

 

Yes...under most circumstances. Reading the SPOTTER "job description" in the RO1 pretty much puts them in a position as backup for the T/O...which is why I used "RO" instead of "T/O" in my initial response. I often use the term "line ROs" to designate the T/O+Spotters team.

(example: Spotter watching the shooter's feet instead of the muzzle of the gun calls a "CEASE FIRE"/SDQ for a X-draw 170º violation which is found to be in error...shooter would get a RESHOOT for the "impeding")

The Timer Operator would have final say regarding any possible reshoot situation.

 

What about the folks that are on "The List"?? Not gonna use any names just a few of their initials "Fillmore Coffins" "Grizzly Dave" "Wyatt" And how many demerits does it take to make "The List"?? I'm down to two demerits now, right??

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

"The List" really has nothing to do with naming rule changes or reshoot qualifications...it's a personal tally of mine for future reference.

Those who are on "The List" eventually are made aware of their status...so will you if you make the grade (NOT really something to which one aspires...unless you're name is Wyatt)

 

[Cowboy Junky]

I got the Trifecta once but a shot of penicillin fixed it right up.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Improper coaching would be any RO “assistance” given in ERROR (e.g. miscounting rounds fired & telling the shooter “one more!”)

 

OR

 

in an untimely manner (e.g. too late to correct a ‘problem’; after the shooter has fired the next gun) …that either Impedes the shooter’s progress (causes undue hesitation) during the stage and/or results in a procedural penalty.

 

Either of which would be legitimate grounds for a RESHOOT

REF: RO1 p.22

(see also Tex’s comments on page 11 of the Nov 2013 “Cowboy Chronicle”)

 

Classic example is the T/O-assisted “Trifecta”:

Shooter has a “bobble” with rifle; loses track of where he’s at in the order of target engagement’

T/O directs the shooter to continue on the WRONG target = PROCEDURAL

Shooter ends up on the correct target IF he would have shot in the proper order...all parties involved lose count of # of shots fired.

Shooter sets rifle down with a round remaining in the action = MSV + 5-seconds for the unfired round.

Total penalties = 25 seconds

Negating the MSV for the RESHOOT under such circumstances falls under the authority of the Match Director.

 

There is a specific exception to “coaching” that results in an unsafe (DQ) situation of which the shooter should be aware (e.g. telling the shooter to “MOVE!” with a cocked/loaded firearm). Shooter WOULD still get the penalty in that situation.

 

Thanks PWB.

 

saved me alot of typing...

 

PLUS, your credibility is considered more valid than mine.....

 

 

..........Widder

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thanks PWB.

 

saved me alot of typing...

 

PLUS, your credibility is considered more valid than mine.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

If it'll help, I got a lower badge number I could sell ya...but it's a LIFE membership...gonna CO$T more than it's probably worth for the intended purpose.

 

 

[Wyatt]

So for the purpose of discussion is there anyone on the posse that offers improper coaching where it would not be grounds for a reshoot.

 

P.S. I aspire to obtain infamy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

 

 

 

deleted!

 

 

..........Widder

[Griff]

So for the purpose of discussion is there anyone on the posse that offers improper coaching where it would not be grounds for a reshoot.

 

P.S. I aspire to obtain infamy

Yes, anyone that is NOT a "Range Official"... TO, Spotters, etc. I.e.: "the peanut gallery"!

If it'll help, I got a lower badge number I could sell ya...but it's a LIFE membership...gonna CO$T more than it's probably worth for the intended purpose.

 

 

From my personal perspective... a low badge number is no guarantee of respect... All I have to do is refer to my wife... oh wait... her badge number is lower than mine!

[Wyatt]

Griff

 

I read what you are saying, but for your consideration

 

RO 1 Pg 2

 

The purpose of this course is to ensure safety and consistency at every SASS club match, no matter what size the match. Each SASS competitor who sets foot on a range is a Safety Officer, responsible for his own safety and the safety of those nearby. It is our intent every SASS competitor has the knowledge to function as a Range Officer, given appropriate coaching on the range by experienced personnel.

 

The shooter may not be able to hear(tell) the difference

 

The TO gets to tell the shooter..........Sorry the improper coaching came from "the peanut gallery" I can not offer you a reshoot

 

Next shooter

[Paden]

Stage 10 at Ambush was a "move and shoot" with the shotgun. We were to move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock. One competitor moved and was going to engage the 1st target over the rock. The RO stopped him and made him move past the rock, thus avoiding a "P". The shooter protested that this cost him extra time on the stage and was awarded a reshoot.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Wyatt;

 

It is my understanding that it is the competitor's responsibility to be able to distinguish between RO's (Rules Officials, referee's, etc) and other Posse members (spectators). Just as it it with other spectator sports, as spectator comments cannot be controlled. And that the TO gets to tell the shooter - No Reshoot, due to yelling from the spectators.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Stage 10 at Ambush was a "move and shoot" with the shotgun. We were to move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock. One competitor moved and was going to engage the 1st target over the rock.

The RO stopped him and made him move past the rock, thus avoiding a "P".

The shooter protested that this cost him extra time on the stage and was awarded a reshoot.

 

That appears to be an example of PROPER coaching to assist the shooter in avoiding a penalty...NOT a RESHOOT situation.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Stage 10 at Ambush was a "move and shoot" with the shotgun. We were to move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock. One competitor moved and was going to engage the 1st target over the rock. The RO stopped him and made him move past the rock, thus avoiding a "P". The shooter protested that this cost him extra time on the stage and was awarded a reshoot.

That's been happening to many times. Shooter doesn't take responsibility and asks for/gets re-shoot.

Shotgun shells in cigar box, shooter instead grabs from belt, has misses and a "P", asks and gets a reshoot, because he said TO should have stopped him. Shooter has problem knocking down shotgun targets, clearly see that he was shooting to low and spotters yell same. Shooter stops and claims prop failure, gets a reshoot.

Some of these reshoots are silly, yet given. Also seeing its consistently a couple shooters that are doing this, and getting away with reshoots given, I also feel sorry for some of the shooters, since the reshoots have changed the outcome. MT

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It's not just the shooters...fault also lies with those T/O's, PMs, and/or MD's who are allowing reshoots contrary to the written rule.

Some shooters habitually try to 'bully' their way out of ANY penalties that might cost them a buckle (ribbon, plaque,certificate, &tc)...there is a process in the rules to handle THAT type of behavior as well.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

Howdy,

Here is a example of proper coaching and improper coaching at the same time.

 

After shooting the rifle and making it safe move to the right and both feet must be past the safe before engage the pistol targets. Shooter only has one foot past the safe. The T/O who was watching the rifle targets was a step behind the shooter. He tells the shooter to move,by this time the shooter who is shooting GF has both pistols out and cocked. The T//O who is not watching the shooters hands and tries to help by nudging the shooter forcing the shooter to move with cocked pistols,SDQ. The shooter gets re-shoot, but bad idea nudging or pushing shooter with cocked loaded guns

 

Nawlins

[Lead Ringer]

So if this is a team sport should I be supplying black shirts to the TO and spotters. Should a miracle happen and I win a buckle or plaque shouldn't I cut those into pieces to be divided amongst the team. But if the spotters and TO is part of my team wouldn't they have to pass off their said duties like say a family member to keep it on the up and up. Then who would take over those duties and how would they not become part of my team. Lots to think about. Page three is definitely in order.

Funny!

Ringer

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I dont consider CAS/SASS a team sport at all, the to/ro and spotters might act as a team in their duties but thats it.

 

 

AO I'll see some of you all at Givan's

[Roger Rapid]

Fillmore … I think "improper coaching" is anything the RO does - verbal or non verbal - that impedes the shooter. This includes NOT meeting the responsibilities specified in the RO guidelines (ensuring shooter understands the stage, etc.), using commands that are inconsistent with the RO guidelines, or any additional/unnecessary commands that cause the shooter to pause.

 

I think one problems we face is that some shooters (especially new shooters) want the coaching, other do not. Getting consistency across ROs at a match, and then ROs across the board is tricky.

 

See ya at the next one… RR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

if a coach losses a game, aint that kinda like improper coaching?

 

If a shooter wins the match, does the coach get some of the credit??

 

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Stage 10 at Ambush was a "move and shoot" with the shotgun. We were to move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock, move, shoot around a rock. One competitor moved and was going to engage the 1st target over the rock. The RO stopped him and made him move past the rock, thus avoiding a "P". The shooter protested that this cost him extra time on the stage and was awarded a reshoot.

Paden, my friend, the stage instructions were as follows: Retrieve shotgun and move to Boulder #1 and shoot the two knockdowns. Move to boulder #2 and shoot the four knockdowns. Note that it did not say move beyond the rocks. Additionally, it was covered in the posse marshal walk-through that a shooter could, if they chose, shoot over the rocks.

 

Sometimes To's will get caught up in what most people are doing and get confused when someone decides to do something different...even though it is allowed. I've been guilty of it. Any person who ever picks up a timer will in time make a mistake mistakes. When we do, we fess up and offer a reshoot.

 

Just an added FWIW: Most shooters chose not to shoot over the rocks because of their height. At 6'1", I could have shot over them, but only if I had zig-zagged as I advanced forward. For most, it was faster to move in a straight line and beyond the rocks before shooting. Had someone chosen to shoot over them and in the process shot the prop, the penalty would have been a SDQ. It was a risky proposition.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

It most certainly IS a team sport.

As a shooter, my score is reliant on the abilities of the TO to do his job correctly (including proper starts and being in position to accurately catch the last shot and nothing after that) - My score is reliant on the abilities of spotters to be vigilant in their job watching and listening for hits.

 

I have given great consideration to the phrase "safely assist" and what that means.

It means that WHATEVER you can do to assist the shooter while doing it safely - you are supposed to do.

 

When I am running the timer - I am the shooters coach, advocate, cheerleader and partner.

I will guide, direct and assist in any legal fashion that will help MY shooter get thru the stage quicker, more accurately, less penalized or safer.

Limit what I can coach on?

I count rounds - watch target engagement - watch drawing/ holstering - the 170 and cocked gun traveling - watch for foot position - long gun staging - dropped hammers and jacked out rounds - I count hits and misses (not for score) but so I can evaluate the spotters performances - watch for closed levers - empty cases and hulls - evaluate the shooters condition to justify how close or far away I will stand. In other words - if it is happening on MY range with MY shooter, I will try to be on top of it.

 

Is that completely fair to everyone? Nope.

But neither is it fair to the BP shooter that gets spotters closing their eyes and turning away from the smoke.

Neither is it fair to the GF that has to see the spotter holding up a pinky finger "Gunfighters always confuse me - I'm pretty sure he got a "P"

 

We should be encouraging our TO's to improve - to raise the level of their game.

Not trying to take them out of the game because some are not as good as others.

Amen and amen. The point is for folks to enjoy the game. Their enjoyment is improved when they do well and avoiding penalties is part of doing well. As has been pointed out, the really fast ones can't be saved, but they need saving far less often. It's the 90% that need the assistance and I enjoy saving them every chance I get.

 

Makes me want to sing a little Mel McDaniel. I'm dedicating it to you, Creeker.

 

Stand up, have you ever been there?

Stand up, identify.

Stand up, tell us all about it.

Stand up, testify.

[Coffin Filler #51633]

I have a tremendous amount of respect and appreciation for a "good" TO. They can effectively deal with a greenhorn or a top shot. They know when to get more involved or to get out of the way.

 

Very few really good ones, but a lot of decent ones. I never complain because I am lousy at it. So I appreciate a good job more than most.

 

But to the question. If the TO caused a problem or hiccup, then a reshoot should be offered.

 

Coffin Filler

[Roger Rapid]

Not to belabor the question, but it might be a good idea for the RO to ask the shooter "do you prefer coaching or not?" …RR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Not to belabor the question, but it might be a good idea for the RO to ask the shooter "do you prefer coaching or not?" …RR

 

... It is prudent to determine if there is anyone on the posse who doesn’t want to be coached.

...

RO1 p.5

 

There are about a dozen additional references to "coaching" in the RO1.