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What's the rule


Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804

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I did not ask this question to start an argument. I just wanted to know the policy(rule) so that I would not have to pretend to be a lawyer or a doctor in the future.

Thank you to all that have replied.

 

You will soon learn that almost any question you ask on the wire will start an argument.

 

Usually about something that wasn't even in your original post/question.

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You will soon learn that almost any question you ask on the wire will start an argument.

 

Usually about something that wasn't even in your original post/question.

Ginger or Maryann!

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I think a point is being missed here. PWB made it very clear that a MDQ means that the shooter can no longer continue shooting in the Match. I agree with his interpretation of the SASS Rule !! I believe this ruling is settled.

 

BUT -- most SASS matches are held as guests on some Commercial or Gun Club's Range. And as such, need to comply with the Operator's Range Rules. Some Ranges will not allow a shooter to be moving with a pistol in hand. SASS Rules permit this. Should a shooter do this they are ejected from the Range. Hence a MDQ, even though it is standard practice in SASS. The same for moving with a loaded shotgun with the action open at some Ranges. SASS cannot control a Range operator or overrule a Range Operator's Rules !! It is the Operator's property. !!

 

If a shooter earns a MDQ, they are eliminated from the Match and cannot continue shooting in the Match. Whether such a shooter is allowed to continue shooting for No Score is beyond SASS's authority. SASS's authority ends when the shooter earns the Match DQ. From SASS's view point the shooter puts up his/her guns and cannot shoot. The Club and Range Operator can do what they want, consistent with the Operator's Range Rules.

 

SASS needs to and has stated it's policy via PWB. As long as such a shooter does not show up in the SASS Match scores for the Match, it is none of SASS's business. That is beyond their authority and liability, it seems. I do not see a conflict or any disagreement.

 

What am I messing ?

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I guess my question is:

Was the Range Operator part of the SASS club or someone outside the club structure??

 

If he was outside the club structure, why was he allowed by the club to make decisions for the SASS club using the range, thereby affecting how the match is run under SASS rules?

 

In my mind, that's a "stand your ground" issue and the Range Operator should be told politely to disengage himself from club business. Seems like a big deal to me. If the shooter insisted upon shooting the second day, based on the Range Operator's approval, and the Range Operator refused to budge, the shooter should have been cut off at the knees by refunding his match fee and told to leave; that he was no longer entered in the match. The Range Operator should have been told that he had gone too far.

 

I did not ask this question to start an argument. I just wanted to know the policy(rule) so that I would not have to pretend to be a lawyer or a doctor in the future.

Thank you to all that have replied.

 

Oh my! Jimmy, I did not make my comments (above) to be argumentative and I apologize if it looks as such to you.

 

Just sounded a bit like a third party was dictating how a SASS function would be run. I most likely did not get the entire story from reading the replies. Sorry for that.

Cat Brules

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I think a point is being missed here. PWB made it very clear that a MDQ means that the shooter can no longer continue shooting in the Match. I agree with his interpretation of the SASS Rule !! I believe this ruling is settled.

 

BUT -- most SASS matches are held as guests on some Commercial or Gun Club's Range. And as such, need to comply with the Operator's Range Rules. Some Ranges will not allow a shooter to be moving with a pistol in hand. SASS Rules permit this. Should a shooter do this they are ejected from the Range. Hence a MDQ, even though it is standard practice in SASS. The same for moving with a loaded shotgun with the action open at some Ranges. SASS cannot control a Range operator or overrule a Range Operator's Rules !! It is the Operator's property. !!

 

If a shooter earns a MDQ, they are eliminated from the Match and cannot continue shooting in the Match. Whether such a shooter is allowed to continue shooting for No Score is beyond SASS's authority. SASS's authority ends when the shooter earns the Match DQ. From SASS's view point the shooter puts up his/her guns and cannot shoot. The Club and Range Operator can do what they want, consistent with the Operator's Range Rules.

 

SASS needs to and has stated it's policy via PWB. As long as such a shooter does not show up in the SASS Match scores for the Match, it is none of SASS's business. That is beyond their authority and liability, it seems. I do not see a conflict or any disagreement.

 

What am I messing ?

 

You are missing the point that a SASS match is run by the organization (usually a SASS-affiliated club) and THAT organization says who can and cannot participate and under what conditions. I know of no instance where range officials have mandated that someone be allowed to participate. Call it what you want, but a shooter DQed from a match yet allowed to shoot for no score is STILL participating in that match. I cannot imagine any range officials demanding a DQed shooter be allowed to continue in said match. The range officials' attorney and/or insurance provider probably would have a very different response.

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Steeldust Dan; Thanks for your comment.

 

I am not an attorney and offer no opinion on legal matters.

 

I am simply debating principle.

 

I see SASS as a Rules managing organization for the sport it created. It's Rules provide for who is qualified to be on the score sheet and how their performance is scored (times, penalties, etc,). And we all are thankful of Palewolf's efforts to standardize Rule interpretation. It seems to me that once a shooter is MDQ'ed in a Match, the shooter is no longer under SASS's Rule system. From SASS's point of view the shooter is gone from shooting, no longer listed on the score sheet. I agree !

 

My point is SASS does not manage the physical assets or customer relations of Clubs or Ranges, which operate under conditional use permits. If such choose to allow a shooter who dropped a loaded revolver (with hammer down on and empty chamber), who is known to be a safe shooter - to shoot at targets set up on their property, under their Range rules, not part of the Match (no Score) - it is their decision.

 

SASS does not own the Club or own the Range. As long as the score sheet follows all SASS Rules, the Match is in compliance.

 

I make no judgement here, as to whether such is a good or bad decision. Above, members have expressed their opinions.

 

I am simply trying to make the point that SASS is the Rules authority and Clubs and Range Operators are the authority to manage assets and customers. And neither has the authority to tell the other what to do.

 

Take care

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Cockroach,

Clubs do not HAVE to be SASS affiliated to put on CAS matches at monthly or even annual levels, but if they are gonna advertise "All SASS rules apply", then they need to follow all of those rules.

 

As you say, clubs can do anything they want. They just can't have it both ways.

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My point is SASS does not manage the physical assets or customer relations of Clubs or Ranges, which operate under conditional use permits. If such choose to allow a shooter who dropped a loaded revolver (with hammer down on and empty chamber), who is known to be a safe shooter - to shoot at targets set up on their property, under their Range rules, not part of the Match (no Score) - it is their decision.

 

"who is known to be a safe shooter" who just dropped a loaded gun. I'm sure that the parent range rents the various ranges to SASS and therefore shouldn't interfere in the match. If the parent range owner wants to let the MDQ shooter continue to shoot for no score, rent him a lane and let him shoot to his heart's content.

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In my opinion, "known to be a safe shooter," is deceptive, speculative and hardly an intelligent rationale to justify letting someone continue shooting after a match disqualification. I believe that SASS rules and the spirit of those rules DO apply.

 

I think that any club (by virtue of actions taken on its behalf by any club or match official), which for any reason allows a MDQ'd shooter to continue shooting, does a disservice to the entire community of SASS shooters and in particular to the sub-community of shooters at that match.

 

I believe THIS to be the principle:

 

It's not a jurisdictional issue or a dispute between the club and SASS.

 

I believe that a club does not have the ethical or moral right to allow continued firing line shooting participation, scored or unscored, by a favored, "known top shooter" or anyone, "known to be a safe shooter," or anyone else, for that matter, who has been given a match disqualification. Who the heck makes those subjective decisions? Some "known, part-of-the-clique, politically-active-in-the-club" official or member who lays hands on the offender and tells him to go forth and sin no more? That's nonsense. I believe such behavior to be either a serious lapse in judgment, or simply cronyism ... something that the so-called "official" has no mandate for and that the other club members and participants didn't expect when they paid their club and match fees.

 

The clubs, for the most part, exist because of SASS. The clubs, via their SASS affiliations, are not free, ethically or morally, to take money from people (club annual, or other fees from members and special match fees) and then, take whatever action they wish to ignore or dishonor SASS rules, for any frivolous reason, including claiming that SASS's "jurisdiction" stops at a certain point.

 

Again, it's not a jurisdictional or legal issue and it's not a dispute between the club and SASS.

 

Neither a club official, acting unilaterally, nor the club, should ever allow a shooter to keep shooting within the club's area of influence during any club function after that shooter has committed violation(s) resulting in match disqualification. This point has nothing to do with any entity's legal jurisdiction over a club function. The club members and other match participants are at the match, performing under SASS rules and expect that SASS rules (NOT SASS's jurisdiction) AND the spirit of those rules will apply universally, equally, and across the board ... NOT by exception ... to any and all match participants, "known" or otherwise. The Spirit of a MDQ, is that the shooter, whoever he may be, put his guns away and stop shooting under any circumstances for the entire term of any particular function. This does not mean he has to leave or stop performing good, non-shooting work for his posse or the match.

 

The shooter should know this stuff anyway and should never put the club in an embarrassing position by asking to be allowed to continue. If he is offered the opportunity to keep shooting, he should decline gracefully.

 

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Cat Brules

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Steeldust Dan; Thanks for your comment.

 

I am not an attorney and offer no opinion on legal matters.

 

I am simply debating principle.

 

I see SASS as a Rules managing organization for the sport it created. It's Rules provide for who is qualified to be on the score sheet and how their performance is scored (times, penalties, etc,). And we all are thankful of Palewolf's efforts to standardize Rule interpretation. It seems to me that once a shooter is MDQ'ed in a Match, the shooter is no longer under SASS's Rule system. From SASS's point of view the shooter is gone from shooting, no longer listed on the score sheet. I agree !

 

My point is SASS does not manage the physical assets or customer relations of Clubs or Ranges, which operate under conditional use permits. If such choose to allow a shooter who dropped a loaded revolver (with hammer down on and empty chamber), who is known to be a safe shooter - to shoot at targets set up on their property, under their Range rules, not part of the Match (no Score) - it is their decision.

 

SASS does not own the Club or own the Range. As long as the score sheet follows all SASS Rules, the Match is in compliance.

 

I make no judgement here, as to whether such is a good or bad decision. Above, members have expressed their opinions.

 

I am simply trying to make the point that SASS is the Rules authority and Clubs and Range Operators are the authority to manage assets and customers. And neither has the authority to tell the other what to do.

 

Take care

 

I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around your statement that the range owner can force a match director, of any discipline, to allow a shooter that has committed a serious safety violation to continue to shoot in the match. Shoot on the property, on another range? Sure. Continue to participate in the match? Not while I'm shooting there. I would have packed my crap up and left when this was done. I would have never signed a contract with the range that allowed the operator to ignore a safety rule, or force me to do so, in the first place.

 

Once after driving from Maryland to Michigan for the Michigan State Championships, had a local shooter draw his first pistol on the first stage and put a round about 6 inches in front of his foot. After consultation with the MD and TO the decision was made to ignore the incident and let the gent shoot the match. Never went back. Spent the rest of my vacation visiting family in the area.

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Bones Z, I'm having the same issue as you. Can't for the life of me understand that logic. Been shooting SASS for 20 years and have NEVER heard of it happening. Not saying it hasn't happened, just never heard of it. SASS has rules. Ranges have rules. Clubs/organizations hosting a match have rules.

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Bones Z, I'm having the same issue as you. Can't for the life of me understand that logic. Been shooting SASS for 20 years and have NEVER heard of it happening. Not saying it hasn't happened, just never heard of it. SASS has rules. Ranges have rules. Clubs/organizations hosting a match have rules.

Ditto. Actually, what I hear being said between the lines is... I'm the land owner, so you as SASS can't eject me from a SASS sanctioned match being conducted on my property, regardless of how unsafe I might be... if I wanna shoot... I'm going to shoot.

 

C0ck0oach, if I've got that wrong let me know... however, let me point out that as a shooter, one signs an application... upon which is usually a clause that states one will abide by the rules of the club conducting the match... ergo, you as a shooter have already agreed to the rules... including the right of the range operator to issue a MDQ, and up to and including the right to physically eject any participant from the match... if they've included the notice that they follow SASS rules. Period. Even if the shooter is the owner of the property, that shooter has abrograted the rights to contest such decisions by signing the entry form, liability notice or other such forms prior to shooting the match.

 

Frankly, if you're given a MDQ, man up and act like an adult, put your guns away and help out where possible. Otherwise, I'd not want the pleasure of your company at any range or at any match for any reason. Ok, I'll relent a little... go away and sulk for a little while... then man up and help out where possible. Now, refer to previous sentence.

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Hi Folks,

 

Most folks I've known stick around and help after a MDQ. However, I will give some slack to those who go home in embarrassment. Case in point: A very nice Cowboy who has passed on, somehow ended up with a live round in his rifle at the LT in the middle of a match. When he let the hammer down, by pulling the trigger, a concept that some on this forum have advocated, a round fired. (This should be a warning to those who advocate that...) Anyway, he was so embarrassed and shook up that he went home.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I'd rather get a SDQ for accidentally not lowering my hammer all the way than firing a live round at the LT and shooting someone. I know of an instance where this happened and the round went through the RR ties between berms and barely missed two pards on the next stage. Following is a photo of the range.

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Griff;

 

You got it wrong.

 

I am tired of posting on this.

 

I tried to send you a personal message to answer your question, but response was you cannot receive any more messages.

 

If you wish to send me a personal message with your email, I will answer your question. I have answered others questions this way.

 

I regret I am unable to communicate better in these Posts.

 

Take care.

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Since you can now get a MDQ for non-safety related infractions (e.g., shooting CC 3 stages in a row with a .38 rifle), I think all MDQ's are no longer equal. Just sayin"...

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Since you can now get a MDQ for non-safety related infractions (e.g., shooting CC 3 stages in a row with a .38 rifle), I think all MDQ's are no longer equal. Just sayin"...

So "thumbing your nose" at the rules for the category you signed up for after being called on it twice is okay? Yes, I know you didn't say that. However, just in case you didn't know, I inferred it from your post. Just sayin'...

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Since you can now get a MDQ for non-safety related infractions (e.g., shooting CC 3 stages in a row with a .38 rifle), I think all MDQ's are no longer equal. Just sayin"...

 

I think if someone was allowed to complete the match after receiving a MDQ for non-safety violations and someone else was NOT allowed to complete the match due to a safety violation, then the MDQ penalties wouldn't be equal.

 

That is why ANY violation(s) that warrant a MDQ should be interpreted that (per PWB and the Rules) the shooter is FINISHED SHOOTING, period.

 

This makes all MDQ's equal.

 

I don't see any other way it can be.

 

NOW, ifn the rules makers want to change penalty perimeters, then thats their call. But until that happens, we gotta live with the rules and guidelines we have.

 

Have a good day all,

 

 

..........Widder

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Had a guy come in the shop once. While filling out the paperwork to do the background check he came to the felony question. He asked if he had a felony would he not be allowed to purchase a firearm. When I told him yes he got very mad. He told me it was for drugs, its not like he killed anybody.

Moral of the story: Felony equals no firearms and MDQ equals done for the match

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I was advise by a well respected source to make one last post on this topic.



I have not been debating the right or wrong of PWB's Ruling.



I have been debating the definition of words being used and jurisdiction. Important to me (part of my profession) but not to many others. The "words" used do not produce the result in PWB's Ruling, above. So I offer a simple change in words to be consistent with PWB's Ruling. Somewhere in all the Rules, we have, insert the following: "A SASS Sanctioned Match is an Event where all SASS Rules are in effect" . While this may be viewed as obvious or common sense, I cannot find this stated. This wording changes The Match from a Competition to an Event (an Occasion which can be comprised of sporting competitions). Thus, a Match Disqualification (competition disqualification) becomes equated to an Event Disqualification. And, in addition, MDQ could be defined: " Disqualified from Shooting at the Event." To allow the Shooter to participate in other activities at the Event.



While this may seem unimportant or unnecessary to those who have the result (stop all shooting by the participant) firmly fixed in their experience, wording used should support the results desired. Otherwise there is miscommunication and debate over meaning. Unfortunately, we have a few cases of this in our Rules. Equating wording and grammar to the desired results, I believe, improves our Rules versus relying, too much, on organizational memory and experience. In essence, capturing PWB's knowledge and experience in correct wording and grammar over time would be to our sport's benefit.



I think my friend for the advice.

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Whew! Such a hot topic! I am glad not to see political opinions coming up too. Legality & following rules are important, more so is question of safety. Regardless of loded or unloaded gun, if dropped, where will it shoot after the drop? All it will take is one time mistake & someone could be hurt. We don't want that to occur? If someone drops a gun, shooting at a match is not the place to check it out!!! Is it embarrising to be stopped from participating? Better embarrisment than bullet going astray. Number one rule is - safety FIRST.

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I cannot believe we are still debating this. As Wyatt stated previously ( I also have spent years in the retail gun sales ) Felony and forever start with the same letter for a reason, that is because a felony record lasts forever! A Match DQ is just as obvious. You are disquailified from continuing to compete in the match, you can still help out but you are done shooting. Enough already!

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I was advise by a well respected source to make one last post on this topic. .....

I have been debating the definition of words being used and jurisdiction. Important to me (part of my profession) but not to many others. ...... Equating wording and grammar to the desired results, I believe, improves our Rules versus relying, too much, on organizational memory and experience. In essence, capturing PWB's knowledge and experience in correct wording and grammar over time would be to our sport's benefit.

I think my friend for the advice.

 

And think you, too. ^_^

 

Sorry, not an attack on you. I'm just a little weird and see humor in some of the strangest places.

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I can understand the rule means that an award of MDQ results in no further match participation. I am hard pressed to see how that would apply shooting for no score and not apply to performing as a TO. The TO carries much more responibility for safety.

 

Allie, the loading table should be positioned to allow for safe unintentional discharges. Walking about with a shooter with a live round under the hammer provides an opportunity for a discharge of a dropped gun in some random direction. Fix the loading table.

 

Cheers,

BJT

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I can understand the rule means that an award of MDQ results in no further match participation. I am hard pressed to see how that would apply shooting for no score and not apply to performing as a TO. The TO carries much more responibility for safety.

 

Allie, the loading table should be positioned to allow for safe unintentional discharges. Walking about with a shooter with a live round under the hammer provides an opportunity for a discharge of a dropped gun in some random direction. Fix the loading table.

 

Cheers,

BJT

Huh? What did I write? I definitely agree...

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You will soon learn that almost any question you ask on the wire will start an argument.

 

Usually about something that wasn't even in your original post/question.

aint it funny how we seem to be split 49/51 % on most anything these days

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WOW

Now we have to define what a MDQ is. :(

 

Should have put his guns up for the match.

Don't care who it is. OR how good of a shooter they are.

Put your guns away. Your done.

 

Reckon I'm in this camp too....

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' now... 52%/48% ?? :)

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