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What's the rule


Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804

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Attending an away state match there was a shooter who dropped a loaded gun. Yes it is a MDQ. Of that there is no doubt. How ever the MD was asked if the shooter could shoot the rest of the match with the posse. The MD is a TG. The MD said if the posse was ok with that then the shooter could shoot the rest of the match with no score. That is what happened. I didn't have a problem with tha as I know the shooter and trust them. When I returned home and was talking about the match another TG stated that absolutly not. The shooter should have put all their guns away and not shot. I checked through the hand books and could only find that it was a MDQ. As a MD of 5 years I have never run into this issue and was wondering if there was a offical rule on this. ( I tried to make this as ambigious as possible so as not to embarrass anyone.) thanks in advance. J-R

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I was at a shoot and on the first stage the posse marshal ,when he went to shoot he hit a pistol on the table and lost the gun.He put up his guns and worked his butt off to make the shoot great for his posse.I was wondering why he did not shoot the rest of the match.I was told that having to put up his guns would make him think about what happened and he would look at what he did and it would not happen again.

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to me, its a question of circumstance. if a shooter mishandles a gun and drops it, or goes for a tumble losing guns from hands or holsters, maybe appears shaken by the event, it is best to put those guns away, keep everyone safe and enjoy what's left of the day. if a long gun gets hooked on chaps and knocked off a table or a pistol falls out of a holster while navigating the props (ya, that happened to me...) and the experienced shooter has a calm demeanor about it and the other posse members are good with, I don't see a problem. seems like a few years back several experienced shooters dropped pistols on a run down bay at WR. I wonder how that was handled. (cos I don't know)

cc

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I know of no MDQ's that were allowed to continue to shoot other than for power factor (which was not a safety issue)

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You drop a loaded gun, you don't forget it, whether you are allowed to continue for no score or not. I know that from experience.

 

Practically speaking, I think it's a judgement call by the shooter, posse marshal, and match director. I have seen it go both ways. I have seen shooters just put the guns away, and seen shooters offered the option, some took it, some didn't. I've also heard of shooters asking for the option and don't know how that worked out.

 

As far as the rules go, I don't know.

 

Good question.

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They should put the guns away! Think about what the insurance and lawyers would do if anything happened involving someone that been dq'ed for safety issues.

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While I am the biggest proponent of shooter gets the easiest call you can make, MDQ seems to imply put your gunz away. Whether you stick around and shuck brass for the balance of the match depends on your makeup. I've seem 'em so shook up and embarrassed that they leave, but for the most part, they cowboy up and hang around. Been in the boat, took my lumps.

 

CR

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Hi Jimmy,

 

I searched all of the booklets from SHB to Match Directors' and found no rule or recommendation about whether the shooter may continue to shoot without score. Like Joe LaFives, I've never seen a shooter with a MDQ allowed to shoot after a MDQ except for the WB power factor MDQ.

 

The argument I've heard against it is that it would not wise for liability issues to allow it in case there is a major problem/injury involving that shooter at a later time. However, on the other hand, I've not heard that the DQ forward policy is followed any longer either.

 

As a PM or if called on for advice as a TG, I would defer to the Match Director or Range Master, whoever is the highest in the chain of command at a match to determine whether the shooter should be allowed to continue without score.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I have seen it always enforced at EOT and WR that the shooter is done for the match. Hang 'em up, and we would be really glad to see you work on your posse the rest of the match. When serving as MD at local club, I always enforce the same.

 

Hard to prove to safety investigators or insurance bean counters why you let a person who had a serious safety problem continue shooting at the match. The potential danger comes not from keeping score for the fellow, it comes from the fellow shooting in the match!

 

Good luck, GJ

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to me, its a question of circumstance. if a shooter mishandles a gun and drops it, or goes for a tumble losing guns from hands or holsters, maybe appears shaken by the event, it is best to put those guns away, keep everyone safe and enjoy what's left of the day. if a long gun gets hooked on chaps and knocked off a table or a pistol falls out of a holster while navigating the props (ya, that happened to me...) and the experienced shooter has a calm demeanor about it and the other posse members are good with, I don't see a problem. seems like a few years back several experienced shooters dropped pistols on a run down bay at WR. I wonder how that was handled. (cos I don't know)

cc

 

 

I was one of those guys, second stage on the first day. On the 20 yard dash to the next shooting position I stopped and went for my pistol and it wasn't there, it was on the ground in front of me. Last time I used the gamer holsters.

 

I was Posse Marshal so I couldn't very well put up the guns and go home, so I continued to work, but was unable to continue shooting. Never even crossed my mind to ask to shoot. Match DQ means Match disqualification, doesn't mean keep shooting just for fun, it is a punishment for an serious unsafe incident.

 

A couple years prior to that I remember a big contoversy caused by SASS HQ implementing the DQ forward policy. Basically if you got DQ'd at any point no more shooting at all the rest of the match. It was stated that if you got DQ'd at a side match prior to the main match you could not even shoot the main match. I think there was even talk of being dropped from all results of the match if DQ'd. Lots of complaints, no one wanted to risk getting DQ'd at a side match and not being able to shoot the main match. Didn't last very long before policy was rescinded, side match participation at major events dropped sigificantly. That year at WR they did allow me to shoot in Sunday's Posse Shoot.

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Earlier in my shooting career, I was MD for an annual shoot. We had a "big name" shooter get a MDQ. I was approached by a fellow club member who was "representing" the shooter. I was asked by my fellow club member if the MDQ'd shooter could shoot for no score. I allowed it and it resulted in no consequence or complaints.

I would not do it today.

 

Fillmore

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to me, its a question of circumstance. if a shooter mishandles a gun and drops it, or goes for a tumble losing guns from hands or holsters, maybe appears shaken by the event, it is best to put those guns away, keep everyone safe and enjoy what's left of the day. if a long gun gets hooked on chaps and knocked off a table or a pistol falls out of a holster while navigating the props (ya, that happened to me...) and the experienced shooter has a calm demeanor about it and the other posse members are good with, I don't see a problem. seems like a few years back several experienced shooters dropped pistols on a run down bay at WR. I wonder how that was handled. (cos I don't know)

cc

So, all shooters are equal, but some are more equal than others. What happens when someone catches his pistol on a prop and drops it, and being "an experienced shooter with a calm demeanor" (s)he is given a pass and allowed to shoot. A second shooter, does the same thing on the same stage and "maybe seems shaken" gets sent home. It's either all or none, put up your guns, go home, or hang around and pick up brass, or just keep shooting without a score. How would you feel if you were sent home, but others at the same match were allowed to continue shooting?

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Really? Hard to believe we are having this conversation. What exactly is a Match D Q? In Wild Bunch, you can be MDQed AND continue for no score, under one circumstance. Don't see that exception in CAS. So, some of you are telling me you CAN be disqualified from the match, yet continue to shoot? Show me THAT rule. Please, show me.

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In the SASS Handbook, ROI and ROII manuals there is no definition of the term "Match Disqualification".

Maybe the ROC should look into defining a MDQ i.e. for Safety Violations the shooter is not allowed to shoot in the portion of the match where the MDQ was awarded.

For non safety reasons i.e. progressive penalties the shooter may continue shooting, at the Match Directors discretion without being scored.

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In the SASS Handbook, ROI and ROII manuals there is no definition of the term "Match Disqualification".

Maybe the ROC should look into defining a MDQ i.e. for Safety Violations the shooter is not allowed to shoot in the portion of the match where the MDQ was awarded.

For non safety reasons i.e. progressive penalties the shooter may continue shooting, at the Match Directors discretion without being scored.

+1 There are a lot of opinions noted above, but there is not a rule quoted stating "put away your guns, your day is finished". If MDQ is not defined then allowing someone to continue to shoot without a score should not be an issue.

 

Have the ROC define MDQ: 1) can the shooter continue with no score recorded, 2) or put guns away (and help out should they wish).

 

Just my thoughts,

BS

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Hi Folks,

 

Allowing the shooter to continue shooting after receiving a MDQ dilutes the message it sends. In situations involving safety infractions, I would say no if I were the MD or RM.

 

About shooting after an out of costume or other progressive penalty, someone has thumbed their nose at the rules. The person could have changed categories or corrected the problem after the P. It seems that they were just pushing to see how far they could get. I don't like giving in to that behavior either. Although their score would not be official, they could still have "bragging rights" if they shot well.

 

I also think Bad Hand makes a good point about allowing one, well-known, calm person to continue without score and preventing another from doing so. Just because someone is calm does not mean that they did not act recklessly, especially if no one else had the same problem.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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WOW

Now we have to define what a MDQ is. :(

 

Should have put his guns up for the match.

Don't care who it is. OR how good of a shooter they are.

Put your guns away. Your done.

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Al said it right again! Shooter is DONE. ..Period.

 

Main Entry: disqualification

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: disability; rejection for participation

Synonyms: awkwardness, clumsiness, debarment, disenablement, disentitlement, elimination, exclusion, incapacitation, incapacity, incompetence, incompetency, ineligibility, ineptitude, lack, unfitness, unproficiency

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WOW

Now we have to define what a MDQ is. :(

 

Should have put his guns up for the match.

Don't care who it is. OR how good of a shooter they are.

Put your guns away. Your done.

 

Gotta join Possum and go with this one also.

 

Disqualification should not only mean unable to compete with a score but disqualified from being active in the competition.

 

 

..........Widder

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I can state with some degree of certainty that the ROC will NOT be defining "MDQ" at anytime in the near future.

 

REF: RO3 p.1

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Common sense is not always applied equally. And the OP shows that the common sense used was to let the shooter continue.

 

Perhaps MDQ does not need to be defined, specifically. Maybe a notation in the Handbooks that any penalty for a safety violation is meant to be that, a penalty. Not a pause and continue.

 

Just another two cents,

BS

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WOW

Now we have to define what a MDQ is. :(

 

Should have put his guns up for the match.

Don't care who it is. OR how good of a shooter they are.

Put your guns away. Your done.

+1 Could not be any more clear for a competitor.

 

For SASS, the liability issue is HUGE given a subsequent incident with this shooter! Imagine a jury of non-shooting "peers".......reviewing an incident after a MDQ safety penalty !!! DUH!!! (Legal terminology for: your goose is cooked, get ready for a BIG settlement)!

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I can't hardly believe I'm having to write this. In my world a match DQ means you are disquailifed from paticipating any further in the match! Next some of you folks are going to want the rule book to define in writing what shoot to the left or right means along with a rule book definition of what up or down is. I realize it stinks to not be able to finish a match, especially a larger state or regional that you spent hard earned money and time to travel to but nobody made you attempt to shoot so fast that you became unsafe! We've all witnessed shooters throwing firearms down on tables or running too hard in wet slippery conditions in order to shave off time. It's up to the individual to decide what they are capable of doing safely and they should have to pay the penalty if they cross the line when it comes to safety. The rules are there for a valid reason and should be enforced no matter who that shooter is. :huh::huh:

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Common sense is not always applied equally. And the OP shows that the common sense used was to let the shooter continue.

Not hardly "common", IMO.

 

Perhaps MDQ does not need to be defined, specifically. Maybe a notation in the Handbooks that any penalty for a safety violation is meant to be that, a penalty. Not a pause and continue.

 

Just another two cents,

BS

 

I'll raise you 2¢ and say that the word is self-defining...no further notation needed.

...& I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for the loss of a shooting venue in event of an accident under those circumstances...let alone someone getting injured.

 

PWB

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Just to be contrary - infractions carry penalties.

Penalties must be defined as to be consistently applied.

 

I believe all of us can agree that a match disqualification means the scored portion of your match has come to an end.

 

What is not being agreed upon OR is not clarified is

"Does a MDQ mean IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE - with ZERO input or discretion on the part of the TO, Posse Marshal and Match Director that a shooters participation in the match has come to an end?"

 

Bear in mind - NOT every MDQ infraction is a safety offense.

Just for the sake of argument - I would not equate the shooter that drops a loaded firearm and earns a MDQ with a shooter that earned a SDQ on one stage for wearing velcro equipped shooting gloves and a SDQ on another for his feathered hat.

By rule - they have earned the exact same penalty (two SDQ = MDQ)

 

Does analysis of the situation count for anything?

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Put them up!

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Just to be contrary - infractions carry penalties.

Penalties must be defined as to be consistently applied.

 

I believe all of us can agree that a match disqualification means the scored portion of your match has come to an end.

 

What is not being agreed upon OR is not clarified is

"Does a MDQ mean IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE - with ZERO input or discretion on the part of the TO, Posse Marshal and Match Director that a shooters participation in the match has come to an end?"

 

Bear in mind - NOT every MDQ infraction is a safety offense.

Just for the sake of argument - I would not equate the shooter that drops a loaded firearm and earns a MDQ with a shooter that earned a SDQ on one stage for wearing velcro equipped shooting gloves and a SDQ on another for his feathered hat.

 

By rule - they have earned the exact same penalty (two SDQ = MDQ)

 

Does analysis of the situation count for anything?

 

Safety violation vs. use of illegal equipment might be a viable defense in a civil suit...or not.

 

FWIW - It had been proposed in the past to have different "grades" of infractions based on the likelihood of personal injury.

E.G. - Sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm = 1st degree MDQ

2X "equipment violation" = 2nd degree MDQ

(this was back when "DQ forward" was still in effect at many ranges)

That idea wasn't well received by the PTB.

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SASS Rules requires a Match Disqualification for a dropped loaded gun.

 

The Range operator decides who can shoot on the Range.

 

In this case, the shooter was given a MDQ and NOT allowed to continue shooting on the first day of a two day match.

 

The Range operator reviewed this specific situation and allowed the shooter to shoot the second day. The Match Director agreed to the shooter shooting on the second day for no score.

 

SASS Rules were followed and the Range operator's Rules were followed.

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