Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Absolutely NONE of my Rifles have that kind of Abomination added to them. It's Not the Cowboy way! To post this is your right...of course. But it also goes against what most of us...at least most of the folks that I personally know, feel about what the term "Cowboy Way" means. What LEGAL modifications that one CHOOSES to employ is THEIR business. To state that the implementation of a LEGAL modification is in some kind of violation of the SASS Cowboy Way is nothing but inflammatory and anti-SASS...and anti-Cowboy Way. Perhaps you should reconsider your position...perhaps talk personally with folks that use these modifications...you might find out that they are TRUE to the SASS Cowboy Way. Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 All I know is that what is allowed/legal in SASS is not allowed in NCOWS. NCOWS tries to stay as true to the period as we can. No short stroke on rifle or pistol. Guns and clothes must be what was used (or as close as clones allow) to what was in that period. So if there are those who dislike the arms race of the speed shooters, come over to NCOWS and you'll find it is a nice bunch of people who are just there to shoot lead and the breeze. I've been at shoots where a shooter will try to sneak in a short stroked gun and gets mad as hell that we don't allow it. That muscle memory sure does shoot you in the foot when you are so used to shooting short stroked rifles that you fumble when shooting one with an unaltered stroke. I've seen it. The guy almost cried he was having so many misses and trying his hardest. So now I'll duck as the shots from the gamers and SASS folks rip into me for being an NCOWS member on a SASS board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 So it'd be ok if Uberti designed a gas assisted "Model 73" for cowboys with rotator cuff problems? And later produced a belt fed '73? Hey, they'd keep the lever of course. Think about our using guns from the cowboy era.... When is a '73 repro a '73, and when isn't it? Who decides today? It's all about degrees. Belt fed and gas operated of course are exaggerations, but illustrate a point. The point is, how close to the originally quoted goal for SASS matches do the Wild Bunch want to stay. They don't want triggers straightened for some reason. Does that reason apply to redesigning the actions so they'll work faster than designed? Red! Your extrapolation far surpasses bordering on the absurd to the point of being ridiculous! Yeah! My '60 Henry is short stroked. My wife's '66 is short stroked. The '73 that i had stolen was a radical short stroke that JUST met the minimum S.A.S.S. requirements. They made and still make me happy!! If I could figure out how to short stroke my 1901 Winchester shotgun and my '92, I'd do it in a heartbeat!! I'm planning on having my 51/2" '75 Remingtons short stroked and the hammers lowered as well. My right hand is damaged and with these pistols fixed like I want them, I'll be able to shoot Gunfighter and Double Duelist more comfortably and in a much safer fashion. And yeah I have a rotator cuff problem as well. All of these claims that certain modifications never occured are just guesses. I've seen some old guns that would make the Mods Commitee's hair curl!! This is a fantasy game. Your Fantasy doesn't bother me......... If you want to shoot stock stroked guns, I have no problem with it!! If you're looking down your nose at those who shoot short stroked guns, your vision is so narrow that you'll never change and I'm sad for you. There's a whole big world out there waiting to be seen and enjoyed, and you're missing a lot of it!! All I know is that what is allowed/legal in SASS is not allowed in NCOWS. NCOWS tries to stay as true to the period as we can. No short stroke on rifle or pistol. Guns and clothes must be what was used (or as close as clones allow) to what was in that period. So if there are those who dislike the arms race of the speed shooters, come over to NCOWS and you'll find it is a nice bunch of people who are just there to shoot lead and the breeze. I've been at shoots where a shooter will try to sneak in a short stroked gun and gets mad as hell that we don't allow it. That muscle memory sure does shoot you in the foot when you are so used to shooting short stroked rifles that you fumble when shooting one with an unaltered stroke. I've seen it. The guy almost cried he was having so many misses and trying his hardest. So now I'll duck as the shots from the gamers and SASS folks rip into me for being an NCOWS member on a SASS board. I was invited to one of your matches a few years ago, They didn't like my gun cart. They didn't like my wifes '97. They didn't like her palm leaf hat. They didn't like my packer lace up boots that I wear because of a partially paralysed foot. I was made to feel uncomfortable and treated like I was unwelcome by some. I still shot well and when the scores came out, I wasn't even listed. The guy that invited me to the match apologised to me and Schoolmarm for the way we were treated, but doesn't understand why we don't go back. I was shooting full house black powder loads. My guns were stone stock legal. I outshot all but one other shooter and didn't even get mentioned. I was treated like a turd in the punchbowl by most of their regular attendees! You understand, I just like to shoot and do my best to play by the rules. But I won't go spend money for another gun cart when my speed cart is perfectly functional, nor will I buy other guns just to suit what someone else's idea of the game is. RickB! Welcome to the fire! Run what ya' brung over here. We're glad to have you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 All I know is that what is allowed/legal in SASS is not allowed in NCOWS. NCOWS tries to stay as true to the period as we can. No short stroke on rifle or pistol. Guns and clothes must be what was used (or as close as clones allow) to what was in that period. So if there are those who dislike the arms race of the speed shooters, come over to NCOWS and you'll find it is a nice bunch of people who are just there to shoot lead and the breeze. I've been at shoots where a shooter will try to sneak in a short stroked gun and gets mad as hell that we don't allow it. That muscle memory sure does shoot you in the foot when you are so used to shooting short stroked rifles that you fumble when shooting one with an unaltered stroke. I've seen it. The guy almost cried he was having so many misses and trying his hardest. So now I'll duck as the shots from the gamers and SASS folks rip into me for being an NCOWS member on a SASS board. Please excuse me if I missed where the folks here on the SASS Wire insulted NCOWS...but why come on here and insult our game? NCOWS is NCOWS...fills a niche...a very small one...but never the less, a niche. SASS is SASS...fills a niche...a much larger one...but never the less, a niche. I would never tolerate...personally...someone ripping NCOWS on a NCOWS forum...would never THINK of demeaning their game or how they play it. To make fun of their way...their game. Very poor form...IMHO. And of course some of us will take issue with your comments...and take a "Shot" at you. BUT, not for you being an NCOWS member posting on the SASS forum, but for you actual comments. Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curley Cole, SASS #56849 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 me and old top tend to like to shoot out of the box. even so my 66 and 73 tend to be smooth as glass (breakfree and "froglub help) I have had cowboys have asked if my guns were done but them seeing how smooth they work) cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Sir HP FlashmanVC SASSL#535 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 To post this is your right...of course. But it also goes against what most of us...at least most of the folks that I personally know, feel about what the term "Cowboy Way" means. What LEGAL modifications that one CHOOSES to employ is THEIR business. To state that the implementation of a LEGAL modification is in some kind of violation of the SASS Cowboy Way is nothing but inflammatory and anti-SASS...and anti-Cowboy Way. Perhaps you should reconsider your position...perhaps talk personally with folks that use these modifications...you might find out that they are TRUE to the SASS Cowboy Way. Cheers! Phantom games·man·ship noun 1.The use of methods, especially in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Sir HP FlashmanVC SASSL#535 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Please explain how a short stroke isn't the "Cowboy Way". It doesn't fall under taking unfair advantage as the mod is LEGAL to EVERYONE. games·man·ship noun 2.The technique or practice of manipulating people or events so as to gain an advantage or outwit one's opponents or competitors. 3. Informal art of winning games or defeating opponents by clever or cunning practices without actually cheating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 games·man·ship noun 2.The technique or practice of manipulating people or events so as to gain an advantage or outwit one's opponents or competitors. 3. Informal art of winning games or defeating opponents by clever or cunning practices without actually cheating Some folks might not use a short stroked rifle. And, some folks might not even like em.....period. BUT, how is using one in our game considered a 'cunning practice'? They are available to everyone. There doesn't seem to be anything 'cunning' about them. 'Cunning' would be more like using a 12 ga SG but resizing your crimped shell down to a smaller gauge in order to facilitate loading. Actually, that practice is illegal now. But before it was officially determined to be illegal, it was considered a 'cunning practice'. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 games·man·ship noun 1.The use of methods, especially in a sports contest, that are dubious or seemingly improper but not strictly illegal. This is your response...? Let's see...you attack folks for playing the game WELL WITHIN the guidelines set up by the sanctioning body (SASS), by claiming that they are not playing by "The Cowboy Way"...and you give us a definition???? Again, to anyone that is reading this forum and is thinking about playing this game, I can assure you that the attitude on the Range is MUCH more reasonable and far less judgemental. Wow... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Never mind, not worth it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Drover Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Darn, Deuce, I read this whole thread just so I would understand where you were coming from in your response; and, then, you didn't even post one. .....Oh, nevermind ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Never mind, not worth it. . +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Never mind, not worth it. . I agree. I just ain't learnt to do it yet..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Please excuse me if I missed where the folks here on the SASS Wire insulted NCOWS...but why come on here and insult our game? NCOWS is NCOWS...fills a niche...a very small one...but never the less, a niche. SASS is SASS...fills a niche...a much larger one...but never the less, a niche. I would never tolerate...personally...someone ripping NCOWS on a NCOWS forum...would never THINK of demeaning their game or how they play it. To make fun of their way...their game. Very poor form...IMHO. And of course some of us will take issue with your comments...and take a "Shot" at you. BUT, not for you being an NCOWS member posting on the SASS forum, but for you actual comments. Cheers! Phantom Please show me where I "ripped" or degraded SASS in my post. If that is what you took from what I said then I am sorry. That was not my intent. What I said was that NCOWS doesn't allolw what SASS does and they don't. I didn't say this made SASS less or NCOWS less. I just stated a fact. Is it not true? I joined this forum a while back and have had a few comments made about being an NCOWS member. I just brush it off. I took more guff from the SASS members on CasCity for being a member of the thread counters and such. I no longer go to CC due to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I agree. I just ain't learnt to do it yet..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Some people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 So you say, "It's not the cowboy way to short a short-stroked rifle." Is that the cowboys from real western history or imagined/fantasy/Hollywood history? Are u trying to emulate John Wesley Hardin, Jesse James, Doc Holliday? Or maybe the ol' boy that shot him from behind? Or maybe the ones who shot Jesse James or Wild Bill? How about the Mormon bounty hunter who would walk up to a guy in a bar and shoot him without even taking his pistol out of his pocket? They didn't try to shoot the pistol out of your hand. They didn't let you draw first and then try to outdraw you. They did look for every advantage. They did shoot first when they could. They did remove front sights so they could draw faster. They did shoot folks in the back. They did anything and everything they could to win. If you think real cowboys, law enforcement officers or outlaws from the day wouldn't have shot slicked-up, modified guns if they could have, (to put it nicely) you are fooling yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 So you say, "It's not the cowboy way to short a short-stroked rifle." Is that the cowboys from real western history or imagined/fantasy/Hollywood history? If you think real cowboys, law enforcement officers or outlaws from the day wouldn't have shot slicked-up, modified guns if they could have, (to put it nicely) you are fooling yourself. +1! I believe that if 19th century cowboys would have had action shooting competitions (Like modern 3-gun to them), I'm quite certain they would have been applying "games-man-ship" to their firearms and gear in an effort to compete to the best of their ability. Cowboys were likely experts at taking advantage of every opportunity available to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 +1! I believe that if 19th century cowboys would have had action shooting competitions (Like modern 3-gun to them), I'm quite certain they would have been applying "games-man-ship" to their firearms and gear in an effort to compete to the best of their ability. Cowboys were likely experts at taking advantage of every opportunity available to them. Like Wild Bill using 1851 Navy Colts? I don't think they were "slicked up" or anything considered modern. He used what he was familiar with and that which he knew was dependable. I'm sure that he had better guns to choose from, but he went with the basic, unmodified, dependable life savers that he knew and trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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