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A hypothetical "you make the call"


Hollifer A. Dollar

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This happened to me at a match this weekend. Situation is this: plate rack with 6 knockdowns over a big dump plate. Stage scenario says (paraphrased here) "rifle loaded with 9 rounds, engage 6 plates in any order until down, any unused rounds should be dumped on the big plate, missing a knockdown is not a miss unless it is standing after 9 rounds are expended, misses of dump plate are counted as misses".

 

I missed plate 1 with the first shot, hit it with the 2nd shot & the 3rd plate in line fell too (255 gn bullets with 25 gns of FFFG Goex will do that). I then shot plates 2, 4, 5 & 6 then dumped the last 3 rounds on the big plate. At lunch afterward, it was discussed that I should have shot a round where plate 3 would have been & only put 2 on the dump plate. My point was the stage instructions said "engage plates til down" which I had done.

 

The theoretical question is this:

 

You hit the plate rack frame with the first shot & all 6 plates fall. Besides congratulating yourself for making a helluva shot, what do you do then? Shoot 5 more where they were & put the last 3 on the dump plate? Do you put the other 8 on the dump plate? What say yall?

 

Holler

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With the given instructions you would be required to engage the dump target with the remaining rounds.

 

"engage 6 plates in any order until down, any unused rounds should be dumped on the big plate"

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lets say I shoot target 1 and target 1 & 2 go down, the rest are still up, needen ta be knocked down

 

hypotheticly, I would have shot where the plate was for one round

so

hypotheticly, folks would not have to talk bout it later

;)

 

if all plates went down on the first shot

I wood hypotheticly place the rest of my rounds on the dump plate

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With the given instructions you would be required to engage the dump target with the remaining rounds.

 

"engage 6 plates in any order until down, any unused rounds should be dumped on the big plate"

 

Goody, that is what I think too, but half the folks in the discussion said you have to treat it like a prop failure & shoot where they ain't. Hence the conundrum.

 

Holler

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I'm thinkin' ya done ok...

All targets are down as requested...

All remaining rounds on dump target as reqested..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' heck of a shot if you hit the target rack and knock 'em all down...

Did you engage them ... well.. I reckon ya did with one heck of a MISS.. :lol:

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Since misses on the dump target are misses, I wouldn't take a chance at shooting more than 3 shots at the dump target. I would shoot as many shots "where it was" as possible to avoid any misses on the dump target.

 

Fillmore

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Hollifer

 

You give 2 versions of the stage instructions. The first indicates the instructions say "engage 6 plates until down," the second that you are to "engage the plates until down." If they really were the first version, you would be required to "engage" 6 targets. The definition of "engage," as I understand it, would require you to shoot where it was so that six rounds have been expended on the plates before going to the dump target. If the instructions were in the second form, i would say their ambiguity entitles the shooter to a no call.

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Hollifer

 

You give 2 versions of the stage instructions. The first indicates the instructions say "engage 6 plates until down," the second that you are to "engage the plates until down." If they really were the first version, you would be required to "engage" 6 targets. The definition of "engage," as I understand it, would require you to shoot where it was so that six rounds have been expended on the plates before going to the dump target. If the instructions were in the second form, i would say their ambiguity entitles the shooter to a no call.

 

Cass, my bad, the instructions as read to us were "engage plates til down", no quantity included. I don't have a hard copy on hand to quote directly now.

 

Holler

 

edit - I should say "the instructions as I remember them 24 hours later". Noone at lunch after the match could remember the exact wording either.

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If I'm not mistaken about this......with knockdowns in general it can go two ways......

 

1. engage the 6 knockdowns until down and a minimum of 6 rounds have been fired

2. engage the 6 knockdowns until down

 

Obviously option 1 has two requirements.....down and at least 6 rounds fired

Option 2 only requires that they be down.......

 

 

which is why most shotgun kd instructions include 4+ rounds or 6+ rounds.....so a minimum number of rounds are fired.

 

without the "minimum number of rounds" included in the stage description Goody has it right.....

 

 

Stan

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Goody not only has it right; it could be (correctly in my view) argued that all shots fired "Where they were" would be misses as the 'correct target' is the dump plate at which instructions read "misses on dump plate are counted as misses".

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Although it'd be better to specify 6 rounds must be expended in the stage instructions, this rule seems to cover it. Page 8 RO-2:

 

Target Failure
In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Chief Range Officer should instruct
the shooter to “shoot where it was.”
This call will never result in a penalty of any
kind to the shooter. This process has been found to be far less confusing, and thereby
safer, to the shooter than requiring an alternate target to be engaged, although it is perfectly
acceptable for the shooter to engage an alternate target and be scored for hits and
misses in the normal manner. Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target as this
may cause further damage to the target, or worse, may result in dangerous ricochets.

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Since misses on the dump target are misses, I wouldn't take a chance at shooting more than 3 shots at the dump target. I would shoot as many shots "where it was" as possible to avoid any misses on the dump target.

 

Fillmore

This instruction set has been used by some to allow them to shoot 9 shots on the first 5 targets and the last on #6. Misses don't count and you don't have to change your point of aim onto the dump target.

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The directions in the OP are pretty clear.

You have NINE rounds to clear SIX plates.

Misses on plates don't count IF a plate is still standing.

Once the plates are down - ANY round fired that DOES NOT strike the dump plate is a miss.

 

You are not required to expend 6 shots to down 6 plates.

If you hit the plate rack with the 1st shot and all 6 plates fall - you better plan on engaging the dump plate with 8 rounds.

If you decide to shoot where they were? Plan on taking misses.

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If I hit the rack and all 6 fell down, I'd be laughing so hard, I'd do well to get three shots on the dump plate!

If I could shoot as fast as Stan, I'd have all 9 shots in the air at the same time, and be making the next transition before that last round hit the last plate! (Saw him do it at Ft White)

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I might be able to help out here..........here are the stage instructions:


Start in the doorway with rifle at low port arms. When ready say, ”Get a rope”! ATB, with the rifle engage the 6 plates on the rack until down and put any extra rounds on the dump target. Move to either window and make the rifle safe. From the Left window sweep the 5 targets twice from either direction. From the right window engage S1-S4 in any order.

 

Shooters notes: Misses are not counted on the plate rack unless the plates are still up after the rifle is completed. All extra round must go on the dump target and misses on the dump target count. Nine rounds MUST be fired and you may reload the rifle until the cows come home if needed.

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The directions in the OP are pretty clear.

You have NINE rounds to clear SIX plates.

Misses on plates don't count IF a plate is still standing.

Once the plates are down - ANY round fired that DOES NOT strike the dump plate is a miss.

 

You are not required to expend 6 shots to down 6 plates.

If you hit the plate rack with the 1st shot and all 6 plates fall - you better plan on engaging the dump plate with 8 rounds.

If you decide to shoot where they were? Plan on taking misses.

 

 

That's the way I see it.

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Stage writer should have included what to do if plate falls "unshot" but did not. There is the inherrent problem usually always encountered with using knock down plates in a stage and must be addressed in the scenario. Bet clean matches were few!

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All this time...we've been playing this game...using the wording that was noted...and 99.99% of the folks seem to have no problem with it.

 

Now we've got to try and make it so that 100% of the folks can understand this set up?

 

Life...nor CAS...can't be perfect. To try and make it so will turn this game into bureaucratic nightmare.

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

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Stage writer should have included what to do if plate falls "unshot" but did not. There is the inherrent problem usually always encountered with using knock down plates in a stage and must be addressed in the scenario. Bet clean matches were few!

Might as well include what to do if the moon crashes on the stage in the middle of the string

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All this time...we've been playing this game...using the wording that was noted...and 99.99% of the folks seem to have no problem with it.

 

Now we've got to try and make it so that 100% of the folks can understand this set up?

 

Life...nor CAS...can't be perfect. To try and make it so will turn this game into bureaucratic nightmare.

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

+1

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Stage writer should have included what to do if plate falls "unshot" but did not. There is the inherrent problem usually always encountered with using knock down plates in a stage and must be addressed in the scenario. Bet clean matches were few!

 

You can't write in everything without making it pretty "wordy" and even more confusing for the shooter's. IMO there has to be a point where we understand the rules because there are to many variables to list each possible situation.....it could take another page.

 

We had 47 shooters and 12 were clean.

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I don't see this any different than having 6 static targets and one falls over, you shoot "where it was".

 

If the shooter does this on a plate rack, there surely should be no penalty. This leaves 3 shots for the dump target and a potential for 3 misses instead of more. A smart move the shooter.

 

Another variation I have seen is to have a plate rack and a dump target. The misses on the dump target are not scored as misses but 1 second bonus for each hit. The catch is you are only allowed a bonus for the number of rounds available after knocking down all the plates. In this case, 3. When applied to the OP, if the shooter knocked down all the plates with 1 shot, there would be 8 available to try and get 3 bonus seconds on the dump target with no chance for misses.

 

Fillmore

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Fillmore,

the difference with static targets is generally static targets have a specified sequence of rounds on a specified sequence of targets.

i.e. Nevada sweep on four targets beginning on T1.

 

A knockdown rack (at least in the OP example) actually has two separate components to the sequence - without a specified round count for each individual portion.

1st component is engage knockdowns until down.

2nd component is engage dump target with all rounds remaining AFTER knockdowns are down.

 

On the static targets - if target 3 falls the first time it is struck - you must "shoot where it was" a couple more times to be able to complete the sequence.

On the knockdown rack - when all the plates are down, regardless of rounds fired - that portion of the sequence is complete and you move to the next requirement.

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