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Badlands Bud #15821

If Rank Points Are Truly Here To Stay

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We're heading into the cold months, and that always brings about some old, re-hashed topics. One of those, which is sure to come up again, is the scoring system we use in this wonderful game. Rank points are loved and hated, feared and respected, but one way or another they are the scoring system used at SASS sanctioned State level and above matches.

 

One of the issues that I and some others have frequently brought up concerning this scoring system is how penalties effect different shooters to different extents, even on the same stage. Within the rank point scoring system, two shooters at the same match on the same stage may incur a penalty for the same infraction, e.g. a miss, procedural, or safety infraction, and may receive differing numbers of rank points in penalty, potentially none at all. For example, if shooter A and shooter B are 122nd and 123rd on stage 6, shooter A beats shooter by 10.01 seconds, and incurs a MSV, no rank points will be added to his or her score. To some this brings no end of bother, and some people seem to simply not be bothered by it.

 

Personally, I find the potential for an un-penalized safety infraction to be the most bothersome aspect of our scoring system. It would appear to me that, in a shooting sport of all games, safety must be emphasized to the utmost, and we must hold ourselves to its highest standards. This is not expressed in a scoring system which has the potential to place zero penalty on a shooter for a safety infraction. For years I have hoped that rank points would be thrown out in favor of a different scoring system, but it seems this may never happen.

 

Instead, I would like to hear the Wire's thoughts on altering the penalty for safety infractions. Instead of issuing a penalty in seconds, which are not the units used to score a match, why couldn't safety penalties be issued in rank points? It would be fairly easy conceptually to insert wording into the rules in which SASS sanctioned state or above matches shall issue penalties in rank points for safety infractions of X% of total shooters with X being between Y and Z. While there will surely be no end of discussion as to what Y and Z should be, much less X at each match, this would at least address the penalty issue, and ensure that all shooters who incur a safety penalty are in fact penalized for their safety infraction. It would allow flexibility for match directors to set the penalty to what their clubs consider to be a reasonable penalty, and it would allow SASS to show a greater emphasis on safety, which some may speculate has become or continues to be somewhat lax.

 

Keeping in mind that this is the result of idle pondering, has not been submitted as a rule proposal, and is hypothetical to the greatest degree, what do y'all have to say about that?

 

Badlands (what's quite interested to see where this goes) Bud

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Man , that higher learning is really paying off . I have seen this brought up many times but not with that idea on safety penaltys . Hope this post is taken seriously by SASS .

 

 

PS: I think a % of the number of shooters might be the way to go . To get the right % for 10 sec safety we could look at a few total time matches and try to find the weight in placement a safety cost the shooter .

Edited by Most Wanted

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I believe Bud is on the right track - the issue with Rank scoring has always been the "variable" penalties associated with misses, safety or procedural penalty. i.e five seconds, ten seconds etc. do not have the same meaning because of where within the overall grouping your score falls.

 

So lets fix that and then examine the outcomes.

A miss is still five seconds, safety and procedural ten - a set amount of time.

So lets make a miss, safety, procedural a "set" unit of penalty.

 

A simple proposal would be to go to the densest cross section of shooters - lets say mid pack.

EoT had approx. 500 shooters this year. So midpoint in scoring theoretically should be around the 250 point. It may not be perfectly - but for my purposes 250 works.

Examining stage 1 shows us at the shooter #250 level - a single miss would cost a shooter about 100 rank points.

So on stage 1 - each 5 second penalty is 100 rank points - each safety 200 - each procedural 200.

Stage 2 - each 5 second penalty was a little stiffer - costing the shooters at the mid point about 130 rank points per.

So on and so - each stage would value the penalties differently but always based on how the penalty affected the greatest number of shooters.

 

One of the purported benefits of Rank is the suspense of shooter placement until awards are announced - this methodology would certainly keep scores secret - because the rank point value of the penalty for each stage could not even be determined until the scores for that stage were compiled.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022

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I believe Bud is on the right track - the issue with Rank scoring has always been the "variable" penalties associated with misses, safety or procedural penalty. i.e five seconds, ten seconds etc. do not have the same meaning because of where within the overall grouping your score falls.

 

So lets fix that and then examine the outcomes.

A miss is still five seconds, safety and procedural ten - a set amount of time.

So lets make a miss, safety, procedural a "set" unit of penalty.

 

A simple proposal would be to go to the densest cross section of shooters - lets say mid pack.

EoT had approx. 500 shooters this year. So midpoint in scoring theoretically should be around the 250 point. It may not be perfectly - but for my purposes 250 works.

Examining stage 1 shows us at the shooter #250 level - a single miss would cost a shooter about 100 rank points.

So on stage 1 - each 5 second penalty is 100 rank points - each safety 200 - each procedural 200.

Stage 2 - each 5 second penalty was a little stiffer - costing the shooters at the mid point about 130 rank points per.

So on and so - each stage would value the penalties differently but always based on how the penalty affected the greatest number of shooters.

 

One of the purported benefits of Rank is the suspense of shooter placement until awards are announced - this methodology would certainly keep scores secret - because the rank point value of the penalty for each stage could not even be determined until the scores for that stage were compiled.

Creeker, with a set quantity of rank points for the penalty you would face an issue similar to the one we have now. Instead of having penalties which are variable depending on the distribution of scores, you would have penalties proportionally variable based upon the number of shooters attending. My idea was for a penalty in rank points which is a fixed proportion of the number of shooters attending. Thus if a MSV was a x% RP penalty at a 100 shooter match, the penalty would be x rank points. This would keep the penalty scaled for different sized matches.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited by Badlands Bud #15821

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This ,,, While a start does Not address the fact that Other Shooters from Outside your Class will deside the winner in your class if you are shooting in one of the More difficult Classes to master ie; Frontieer Cartridge or Frontieersman ....

 

So why bother having classes or age groups ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when you are shooting against all !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Hello the Fire,

Bud, I didn't realize that the Penalties(i.e. procederals,MSP, etc.) don't have a thing to do with the shooter rank points. Your idea would seem to rectifiy this and level the playing field for all competiors. Something for all to think about.

 

Cap

 

 

B)B)B)

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Just wanted to state "but one way or another they are the scoring system used at SASS sanctioned State level and above matches."

 

should be "Regional and above matches"

 

If your state is using rank and you do not like it, start there. They can choose time or rank.

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Capital idea! This would indeed remove the variable penalty. Without the higher math - a Safety can vary in RP greatly depending on the number of shooters and the average stage times. A formula equalizing the RP penalty should be workable and not too hard to create. Bud sounds like the guy who has the brains and knowledge base to to it.

 

CR

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For matches based on rank points, basing the penalties on rank points makes sense.

 

Simply write it into the scoring software and move on.

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Great Idea !! But would defeat the purpose of RS which is to protect top shooters that may have "made a little boo-boo" as i have been told by persons in authority and on this board.

 

 

"Honor To Whom Honor Due"

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Capital idea! This would indeed remove the variable penalty. Without the higher math - a Safety can vary in RP greatly depending on the number of shooters and the average stage times. A formula equalizing the RP penalty should be workable and not too hard to create. Bud sounds like the guy who has the brains and knowledge base to to it.

 

CR

 

It's even simpler than you describe if you're talking about coding the logic into scoring software.

 

Scoring software in use now has a point in the computations where the time penalty is added in. It has to be computed of course, just as misses are. Simply delete that computation and move the penalty logic into or just beyond where the pass is made that assigns rank points.

 

Or do you wish to keep the time penalty as well? That would require a touch more sophistication to the changes, but still is easily possible for most programmers that understand the new rules.

Edited by Litl Red

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I hate to be the wet blanket, but I don't think the proposal is an improvement.

 

It will have no effect on safety. No shooter begins a stage thinking, "I can get away with a minor safety penalty here." So no shooter is going to try harder to be safer than they already are. Minor safety violations happen because we are imperfect human beings, not because we are trying to deliberately use a safety violation to get an edge on the competition.

 

"Personally, I find the potential for an un-penalized safety infraction to be the most bothersome aspect of our scoring system." This is simply not a true statement. The MSV is penalized equally for all shooters...10 seconds is added to their score. I understand that you are miffed that a shooter can commit a MSV and perhaps not have his ranking effected. But is this any different than missing a target or two and not having rank effected? And most of the time the MSV WILL have an effect on ranking. The example you give is the exception, not the norm.

 

When discussions of Rank Points versus Total Time arise, we frequently make analogies to golf's two scoring systems...Match Play for Rank Points, and Stroke Play for Total Time. The two games are different, and the Stroke Play champions are not necessarily the best at Match Play. SASS has two different games too. Trying to mix the rules of one into the other is just going to create a bigger mess for the scorekeepers. And I guarantee it will not eliminate the howls and complaints after the match.

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Although I'm not fond of Rank points, In the same scenario if they had been scored on total time, it wouldn't have affected the outcome either. The only difference is that instead of winning by 10 seconds , shooter A won by .01 seconds.

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In a total time match where two shooters are separated by more than 10 seconds but are say 122 and 123 in order, if the shooter who is ahead get's the minor safety penalty the scoring doesn't change either! There are other permutations in the respective scoring systems that will produce similar anomolies.

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Bud, interesting view on the subject. If I read your example correctly, the only reason the MSV didn't hurt the shooter is that he was faster enough than the other shooter to cover the penalty. If they had shot the same (or closer than 10 seconds) raw time, the MSV would have hurt him. At any given match scores on a given stage do vary widely, say from 15 second to 90 seconds. And that would seem to leave the door open for penalties that don't have any effect due to rank points as your comments suggest. However, I would say that given any shooter, and the group of other shooters that he or she is on par with based on ability and normal average stage times, that rank points would seldom result in penalties that have no effect on the rank points results within that group of peers.

 

I am with Jabez, my issue with rank points is that overall rank points determine category placement. Shooters from outside your category determine how you place in your category. In this day and age of computer scoring, the solution is simple, calculate both overall and category rank points, and use each accordingly. Yes, this would create some cases where a shooter would place higher in category than another shooter, but lower overall, but at least then each placement is based correctly.

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In this day and age of computer scoring, the solution is simple, calculate both overall and category rank points, and use each accordingly. Yes, this would create some cases where a shooter would place higher in category than another shooter, but lower overall, but at least then each placement is based correctly.

 

 

Bingo....

 

and dead simple to code

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Bingo....

 

and dead simple to code

Yes it is, I've done it while running an analisis of RP vs TT vs R&CP.

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Stage Points that we use in Wild Bunch scores WITHIN category. Shooters in other categories have no effect on your placement. Unfortunately in one of the early applications of the system a mistake was made in it's use and it got some bad publicity. When used correctly as per the current SASS scoring program or the ACES program it works very well. I will be writing a series of short articles for the Chronicle about it after the first of the year.

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Bud, I agree with your analysis and proposed solution.

 

You have highlighted one of the two major issues with rank scoring and it would be a great improvement as you have noted.

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I hate to be the wet blanket, but I don't think the proposal is an improvement.

 

It will have no effect on safety. No shooter begins a stage thinking, "I can get away with a minor safety penalty here." So no shooter is going to try harder to be safer than they already are. Minor safety violations happen because we are imperfect human beings, not because we are trying to deliberately use a safety violation to get an edge on the competition.

 

"Personally, I find the potential for an un-penalized safety infraction to be the most bothersome aspect of our scoring system." This is simply not a true statement. The MSV is penalized equally for all shooters...10 seconds is added to their score. I understand that you are miffed that a shooter can commit a MSV and perhaps not have his ranking effected. But is this any different than missing a target or two and not having rank effected? And most of the time the MSV WILL have an effect on ranking. The example you give is the exception, not the norm.

 

When discussions of Rank Points versus Total Time arise, we frequently make analogies to golf's two scoring systems...Match Play for Rank Points, and Stroke Play for Total Time. The two games are different, and the Stroke Play champions are not necessarily the best at Match Play. SASS has two different games too. Trying to mix the rules of one into the other is just going to create a bigger mess for the scorekeepers. And I guarantee it will not eliminate the howls and complaints after the match.

Respectfully, I don't think you've given the OP full consideration. In TT - a safety adds exactly 10 seconds to your total time. In RP, each stage has a varying RP penalty for 10 additional seconds. A proposal along the lines of Bud's thinking could minimize the disparity. On a long stage where the fastest shooter is at 28 seconds and the slowest at 60 seconds, the RP jump might be 8 or 10 in a 100 person match. On the dump stage where the times range from 11 seconds to 25 seconds, the RP penalty could jump into the 90s. So I get an 8 RP penalty and you get a 90 RP penalty for the same infraction? That's how it's played as is. There may not be a way to totally eliminate the discrepancy, but there certainly is a way to narrow the gap.

 

My, how refreshing. An original thought! Thanks, Bud.

 

CR

Edited by Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739

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Ok, what is the algorithm going to be?

 

Take the number of rank points from the mid point in the shooter list, take the number of misses available in the stage, divide by 2 to get the 10second value then apply that number of points?

 

Problem is, that's going to be a TINY number in a match with only 50 shotoers and a GIGANTIC number in a match with 800 shooters.

 

half of 50 shooters is 25, 24 misses per stage divided by 2 so 25/12= 2 RP for a MSV.

Half of 800 shooters is 400, 24 misses per stage divided by 2 so 400/12= 33 RP for a MSV.

 

Hmmm.... I don't know. Might work. Deserves thought.

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Respectfully, I don't think you've given the OP full consideration.

 

I love experimentation. Prove me wrong. If you like the idea, use this new scoring system at your club for the next year, including the annual match. Let us know how it works out.

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I haven't read all the post.

 

Here is my suggestion on scoring..... Total time in seconds minus yer age in seconds..... lowest time wins.......!!!! :)

 

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it!!!! lol.. -_-

 

Upppph's,,, starting to deviate off OP. LOL.

 

 

Blastmaster

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This ,,, While a start does Not address the fact that Other Shooters from Outside your Class will deside the winner in your class if you are shooting in one of the More difficult Classes to master ie; Frontieer Cartridge or Frontieersman ....

 

So why bother having classes or age groups ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when you are shooting against all !!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

This is the biggest problem with rank points, not the postulated failure of rank time to adequately penalize a safety violation. A shooter outside of your category influences your outcome.

 

Further, if you ranked within category rather than across categories, the failure of rank points to penalize safety violations would be much reduced.

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Two shooters walk into a bar. One is ranked 122nd on a stage, the other is 123rd. They order a drink and 123 says to 122, "I would have enjoyed the shoot more if you hadn't been wearing Wrangler jeans."

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I love experimentation. Prove me wrong. If you like the idea, use this new scoring system at your club for the next year, including the annual match. Let us know how it works out.

Thank the Lord we use TT. Very few clubs around here use RP scoring, so it's only something we deal with on occasion and at the regionals. I support the idea, but do not have the computer savvy to change ACES programing. Worth discussing, and it's a new take on the dead horse issue that actually might find common ground. I'll shoot no matter the system or conventions unless they ban 6'4" 260lb fat guys! :P

 

CR

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If the emphasis is on safety, instead of going through all kinds of putting X's and O's into a computer to figure out how much the safety costs you in rank points, just make the time penalty for a safety violation considerably higher than the time penalty for a procedural. Right now we treat them equally, 10 and 10. Make the safety violation 20 seconds or some other number higher than the P.

 

I agree with the statement, "No one goes into a stage thinking, I could save some RP by committing a MSV." But MSV's occur. Bud's statement that safety should come first makes me wonder why a MSV is no worse than a P regardless of the scoring system used.

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Bud, interesting view on the subject. If I read your example correctly, the only reason the MSV didn't hurt the shooter is that he was faster enough than the other shooter to cover the penalty. If they had shot the same (or closer than 10 seconds) raw time, the MSV would have hurt him. At any given match scores on a given stage do vary widely, say from 15 second to 90 seconds. And that would seem to leave the door open for penalties that don't have any effect due to rank points as your comments suggest. However, I would say that given any shooter, and the group of other shooters that he or she is on par with based on ability and normal average stage times, that rank points would seldom result in penalties that have no effect on the rank points results within that group of peers.

 

I am with Jabez, my issue with rank points is that overall rank points determine category placement. Shooters from outside your category determine how you place in your category. In this day and age of computer scoring, the solution is simple, calculate both overall and category rank points, and use each accordingly. Yes, this would create some cases where a shooter would place higher in category than another shooter, but lower overall, but at least then each placement is based correctly.

I understand the desire to not have overall rank points influence category placement, but relative to the problem of inconsistent penalties, rank within categories would be even worse, especially in small categories. The issue that rank points cause is due to a conversion in the difference between two shooters measured in seconds scored as the number of shooters which fill the gap. This means that a difference of 10 seconds could be anywhere between 0 rank points and the number of shooters attending the match. As you get into smaller and smaller categories, the potential for extreme variation in the real penalty, as measured in rank points, gets worse. The effect of a 10-second penalty in wrangler is going to vary wildly from a 10-second penalty in frontiersman. I don't disagree that perhaps there should be some change to address the issue of overall rank interfering with the scoring of individual categories, but rank within category will not help the issue of variable (or non-existent) safety penalties.

 

This is the biggest problem with rank points, not the postulated failure of rank time to adequately penalize a safety violation. A shooter outside of your category influences your outcome.

 

Further, if you ranked within category rather than across categories, the failure of rank points to penalize safety violations would be much reduced.

Again, rank within categories would increase, not decrease the chances of minimal or non-existent safety penalties. The issue of variable resolution in scoring due to rank points gets worse as the number of shooters in the scoring system is reduced. If you separate by category, you will always reduce the number of shooters being scored together.

 

If the emphasis is on safety, instead of going through all kinds of putting X's and O's into a computer to figure out how much the safety costs you in rank points, just make the time penalty for a safety violation considerably higher than the time penalty for a procedural. Right now we treat them equally, 10 and 10. Make the safety violation 20 seconds or some other number higher than the P.

 

I agree with the statement, "No one goes into a stage thinking, I could save some RP by committing a MSV." But MSV's occur. Bud's statement that safety should come first makes me wonder why a MSV is no worse than a P regardless of the scoring system used.

Unless you increase the safety penalty to some substantial number like 60 seconds, you will still have instances of minimal penalties for safety infractions without addressing the issue of different shooters on the same or different stages receiving different penalties for the same infraction. Why should the penalty for the same safety infraction be different for two different shooters simply because of where they placed in the score distribution? If the match is to be scored using rank points, why shouldn't a safety penalty be issued in the units used to score the match so that it is the same across all stages and throughout the score distribution?

 

I could see an argument being made for allowing the miss or procedural penalties to vary based on stage design and score distribution, but I see no good argument for allowing safety penalties to do the same. Same safety infraction, same penalty would seem like the only logical desired outcome, and if we score matches using rank points, the only way to do this is to issue the penalty in rank points.

 

Unless I'm missing something?

 

Bud

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Just use Total Time !!!

 

What could be more Fair ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Or easyer ??????????

 

RANK POINTS SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Just use Total Time !!!

 

What could be more Fair ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Or easyer ??????????

 

RANK POINTS SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

For the sake of this discussion, and given historical precedent, let's say that isn't an option.

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Rank points came about to make up for the disparity between long stages and short ones. A time based penalty really screwed you in a very short stage and often did little or nothing much to you in a very long stage. 5 seconds in a 19 second stage hurts more than one in a 30 second one.

 

Nowadays with almost all the stages taking about the same amount of time, TT makes more sense for choosing a winner.

 

Simple solution is quit basing penalties on time if the results are based on rank points. For matches based on ranking, base the penalties on ranking. The confusion and unfairness comes from having the results based differently than the penalties are based.

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Just use Total Time !!!

 

What could be more Fair ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Or easyer ??????????

 

RANK POINTS SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

I learned a saying in the Army, that has benefited me my whole life. It is the KISS Principle. KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID"! Honestly this is starting to look like IPSC!

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