SWAT teams for this?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/15/texas-swat-team-conducts-_n_3764951.html

Really? - nice excuse on the marijuana to perform what they did....

 

May be more than meets the eye, but on it's surface that's overkill....

 

GG ~

[Henry T Harrison]

when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail

[Badlands Bob #61228]

We have a form we fill out whenever we do a search warrant. It's to determine the risk factors to the officers. It includes the suspect's criminal history, current charges, weapons, gang affiliations, threats to officers, etc. The total points from the form determines if the Swat team gets involved in the search warrant.

 

Officer on the job deaths nationwide are way down from the 1980's. I'd attribute it to better training, equipment, communications and generally discouraging the Dirty Harry style of police work.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

 

We have a form we fill out whenever we do a search warrant. It's to determine the risk factors to the officers. It includes the suspect's criminal history, current charges, weapons, gang affiliations, threats to officers, etc. The total points from the form determines if the Swat team gets involved in the search warrant.

 

Officer on the job deaths nationwide are way down from the 1980's. I'd attribute it to better training, equipment, communications and generally discouraging the Dirty Harry style of police work.

Welcome to the new Dirty Harry.

 

GG

[royal barnes sass #5792]

 

We have a form we fill out whenever we do a search warrant. It's to determine the risk factors to the officers. It includes the suspect's criminal history, current charges, weapons, gang affiliations, threats to officers, etc. The total points from the form determines if the Swat team gets involved in the search warrant.

 

Officer on the job deaths nationwide are way down from the 1980's. I'd attribute it to better training, equipment, communications and generally discouraging the Dirty Harry style of police work.

Bob, I suspect that officer deaths are down because of better training, equipment,communications...............and the use of SWAT teams where necessary.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Bob, I suspect that officer deaths are down because of better training, equipment,communications...............and the use of SWAT teams where necessary.

 

Bingo...

 

GG ~

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Bob, I suspect that officer deaths are down because of better training, equipment,communications...............and the use of SWAT teams where necessary.

That is what I was eluding to. There is a much greater emphasis on team work and backing up other officers now than when I started in 1980. Asking for help on a traffic stop was considered a sign of weakness and was to be avoided. Now it's routine. Same mind set is now applied to serving search and arrest warrants. These trends make it statistically safer for the officers now but it can lead to incidents of over reaction and heavy handedness.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Since this is about SWAT Teams and using them. For the past decades, SWATs have been overused in many situation that could have been handled differently, and because SWAT was there, caused more of a problem, and increased risk situations. Call it a Gung-Ho attitude, or using SWAT, because they were there. Gung-Ho without checking sources, and verifying before breaking into wrong houses, causing health issues with some of the residents in which there were no drugs, guns, etc. found after thorough searches. Bad info, and a Gung-Ho attitude by some, has, and is staining them. Remember the house in AZ.? SWAT broke in middle of the night, wakening husband, was shot 21 times? Then would not let Ambulance in, homeowner bled to death. Nothing was found in the house, or property. Several blocks down, we have a SWAT officer that showed up for our block party 4th July. I rather not go into his yarns, nor his pride in breaking down doors, smashing windows, or tearing up the interior. If they don't find stuff, they tear more stuff, floors and walls down. Recently they had SWAT team surrounding a home in which an a crippled 78 year old man in wheelchair, had told his son to leave after finding out he had been stealing from him. Son calls police that he wanted father committed. SWAT was called. His son was even asked if there were any firearms owned by the guy, he told them no, never. Yet they proceeded to toss in a tear gas shell, break the doors down, and storm into house. Old guy was taken to floor, off his wheelchair onto floor and handcuffed.

Lotsa stories like this out there, including SWAT teams taking firearms during Katrina.

Again, it has a lot to do with some of these guys who never should be on a SWAT team, and the elite thinking some have. There are good officers on these teams, it's the bad ones that hurt. MT

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

 

In recent years, SWAT teams have been called out to perform regulatory alcohol inspections at a bar in Manassas Park, Va.; to raid bars for suspected underage drinking in New Haven, Conn.; to perform license inspections at barbershops in Orlando, Fla.; and to raid a gay bar in Atlanta....

 

BARBERSHOP license inspections???

 

Seems to me them boys are hard up for entertainment.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

 

with the OVER REACH and HEAVY handed tatics

 

I do NOT see much good coming of this

 

CB

[Litl Red]

Hey, SWAT has a clear precedent. Remember the tanks at Waco?

 

 

Was that TV coverage what got the "COPS" series started on the reality networks? and planted the SWAT seed all over the nation?

[Phantom Falcon, SASS # 46139]

Way too many swat teams in this country. Way too many agencies trying to act like Marines, Rangers or SEALS.

I don't like the militarization of the police, the excessive military equipment or the police state that the USA is rapidly becoming. One can find those entities in Russia, China, Cuba or any other totalitarian states.

 

In general I'm supportive of the Sheriffs, somewhat of city cops and like having them around. I just want them to be lawmen and not an extension of the military. Other than the Border Patrol I don't have much use for any of the other federal agencies.

 

PF

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Oddly, this very issue was the topic of discussion on a local Fresno radio station this afternoon, with tons of calls and an interview with Bradley Balko, author of "Rise of the Warrior Cop."

 

One incident reported seemed completely unreal, but when I Googled it my eyebrows were raised:

 

Baby Deer Killed by SWAT Team

 

August 5, 2013

 

A baby deer killed by 13 “heavily armed officers” who came to an animal shelter with a warrant for the deer is a story that is not only heart-wrenching, but an outrageous incident that makes absolutely no sense. They killed the baby deer that was being cared for by this Illinois animal shelter after it was abandoned by its mother, according “Fox and Friends” live on Monday morning, Aug. 5.

 

This left me dumbfounded.

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

 

We have a form we fill out whenever we do a search warrant. It's to determine the risk factors to the officers. It includes the suspect's criminal history, current charges, weapons, gang affiliations, threats to officers, etc. The total points from the form determines if the Swat team gets involved in the search warrant.

 

Officer on the job deaths nationwide are way down from the 1980's. I'd attribute it to better training, equipment, communications and generally discouraging the Dirty Harry style of police work.

You have forms to fill out and points to reach but is that standard for the rest of them? On the face of it that sounds fine, but on the face of it NSA spying on most all communications in the US in the name of protecting us from terrorism sound just fine until you remember the Constitution. Sending police out to get overdue books returned is bad enough but sending SWAT teams out on some of the things they do sounds more like trying to justify their existence than anything else. We got em, we use em. For whatever is at hand.

My only personal experience was in 1970 in Boston where their newly formed Tactical Squad raided an apartment down the hall from my girlfriend's place just after I left. Wrong address, they shot and killed the guy that lived there and wounded his wife, both were elderly. Yeah, I know...long time ago, things have changed, everything is better now. Right.

I too generally support all branches of the police, it's a tough job. But institutionally I do not trust them to look out for my constitutional rights any more than I trust the Feds to look out for them. Think cell phone and search and seizure, think using jay walking as probable cause for a stop and frisk with a perusal of his phone, among other things.

The Constitution is being eaten up, one little bit at a time.....then POOF! It will be gone and people will wonder where it went.

I'm going for a beer.....or two

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

Oddly, this very issue was the topic of discussion on a local Fresno radio station this afternoon, with tons of calls and an interview with Bradley Balko, author of "Rise of the Warrior Cop."

 

One incident reported seemed completely unreal, but when I Googled it my eyebrows were raised:

 

Baby Deer Killed by SWAT Team

 

August 5, 2013

 

This left me dumbfounded.

Hey, it's AGAINST THE LAW to take in wildlife like deer or, say, raccoons to save them in many states. The law MUST BE OBEYED!

One wonders what they discussed after leaving the place.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

The Swat team, like any other tool, can be abused. But when you need them, nothing else will work. I can point out lots of examples where the average patrol officer just does not have the tools or the experience to safely handle the incident. A full Swat call out is about 45 officers. They train and work as a team. Ours has over $2,000,000 worth of equipment including remote control robots, armoured vehicle, explosives, heavy duty body armor and all sorts of cell phone and surveillance secret squirrel electronics. If some nut case takes your family hostage, do you really want Barney going in the front door with just his pistol and a prayer?

 

It's not the successful drug raids, hostage rescues or barricaded gunman incidents that gets everyone talking. Those happen every day. They get a 30 second segment on the local news. However, one screw up and the whole national media talks about it for weeks. Should law enforcement be held to a high standard? Absolutely. Sometimes bad things happen.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

good grief.

[Chantry]

The Swat team, like any other tool, can be abused. But when you need them, nothing else will work. I can point out lots of examples where the average patrol officer just does not have the tools or the experience to safely handle the incident. A full Swat call out is about 45 officers. They train and work as a team. Ours has over $2,000,000 worth of equipment including remote control robots, armoured vehicle, explosives, heavy duty body armor and all sorts of cell phone and surveillance secret squirrel electronics. If some nut case takes your family hostage, do you really want Barney going in the front door with just his pistol and a prayer?

 

It's not the successful drug raids, hostage rescues or barricaded gunman incidents that gets everyone talking. Those happen every day. They get a 30 second segment on the local news. However, one screw up and the whole national media talks about it for weeks. Should law enforcement be held to a high standard? Absolutely. Sometimes bad things happen.

While I agree with your comments, the part that I think bothers many of us is that when a SWAT team makes a mistake and an innocent person or persons dies through their heavy handed tactics or some cases reckless behavior, nothing seems to happen to the SWAT member or team that made the mistake. Sure there will probably be a payment by an insurance company to the heirs, but that's not enough.

 

The baby deer incident is a perfect example of things getting out of control. Whoever ordered the SWAT team to go to that shelter and kill the baby deer should be fired and the SWAT team leader should be removed from the SWAT team and demoted for following such an absurd order and allowing the SWAT team to be used in such a manner.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Hey, it's AGAINST THE LAW to take in wildlife like deer or, say, raccoons to save them in many states. The law MUST BE OBEYED!

One wonders what they discussed after leaving the place.

 

yes the law needs to be obeyed - absolutely..but the use of law enforcement needs to be checked to fit the crime. Too much OVER-THE-TOP response to things lately.

 

GG ~

[Badlands Bob #61228]

 

 

 

 

 

The baby deer incident is a perfect example of things getting out of control. Whoever ordered the SWAT team to go to that shelter and kill the baby deer should be fired and the SWAT team leader should be removed from the SWAT team and demoted for following such an absurd order and allowing the SWAT team to be used in such a manner.

I totally agree about the baby deer incident.

[Barry Sloe]

Think about it. When SWAT was developed years ago it was to be a tool to be used when needed. That tool is not needed to enforce code violations or perform inspections. Neither is it needed to kill a deer. However, if you want to have personnel at your disposal that will do whatever they are told no matter what, then you begin conditioning them with training. Soon they'll do whatever is ordered of them without thought.

You can take those thoughts any direction you want.

 

Barry Sloe

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Think about it. When SWAT was developed years ago it was to be a tool to be used when needed. That tool is not needed to enforce code violations or perform inspections. Neither is it needed to kill a deer. However, if you want to have personnel at your disposal that will do whatever they are told no matter what, then you begin conditioning them with training. Soon they'll do whatever is ordered of them without thought.

You can take those thoughts any direction you want.

 

Barry Sloe

 

I think that's what's happening... and some of those thoughts are kinda scary.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I think that's what's happening... and some of those thoughts are kinda scary.

 

Ain't that the truth...

 

GG ~

[royal barnes sass #5792]

Since this is about SWAT Teams and using them. For the past decades, SWATs have been overused in many situation that could have been handled differently, and because SWAT was there, caused more of a problem, and increased risk situations. Call it a Gung-Ho attitude, or using SWAT, because they were there. Gung-Ho without checking sources, and verifying before breaking into wrong houses, causing health issues with some of the residents in which there were no drugs, guns, etc. found after thorough searches. Bad info, and a Gung-Ho attitude by some, has, and is staining them. Remember the house in AZ.? SWAT broke in middle of the night, wakening husband, was shot 21 times? Then would not let Ambulance in, homeowner bled to death. Nothing was found in the house, or property. Several blocks down, we have a SWAT officer that showed up for our block party 4th July. I rather not go into his yarns, nor his pride in breaking down doors, smashing windows, or tearing up the interior. If they don't find stuff, they tear more stuff, floors and walls down. Recently they had SWAT team surrounding a home in which an a crippled 78 year old man in wheelchair, had told his son to leave after finding out he had been stealing from him. Son calls police that he wanted father committed. SWAT was called. His son was even asked if there were any firearms owned by the guy, he told them no, never. Yet they proceeded to toss in a tear gas shell, break the doors down, and storm into house. Old guy was taken to floor, off his wheelchair onto floor and handcuffed.

Lotsa stories like this out there, including SWAT teams taking firearms during Katrina.

Again, it has a lot to do with some of these guys who never should be on a SWAT team, and the elite thinking some have. There are good officers on these teams, it's the bad ones that hurt. MT

Marshal Troop, please reread the AZ case. Your facts are a little skewed.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I like the SWAT theme song

 

 

GG ~

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Anyone remember Ken Ballew?

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

yes the law needs to be obeyed - absolutely..but the use of law enforcement needs to be checked to fit the crime. Too much OVER-THE-TOP response to things lately.

 

GG ~

In the end I recognize the need for things like SWAT for many of the things they do. I get it. IMHO there needs to be more accountability and responsibility for the bad stuff that happens. To often the institutional response to the wrong address being raided and someone being hurt or worse in the raid is essentially that bad things happen. If someone were to be held accountable for those bad happenings and lose their job or worse then maybe the over the top response to things might be reduced some.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

In the end I recognize the need for things like SWAT for many of the things they do. I get it. IMHO there needs to be more accountability and responsibility for the bad stuff that happens. To often the institutional response to the wrong address being raided and someone being hurt or worse in the raid is essentially that bad things happen. If someone were to be held accountable for those bad happenings and lose their job or worse then maybe the over the top response to things might be reduced some.

10-4 THAT!

 

GG ~

[charlietwogunz]

For every example of "bad" policework there are hundreds that go unsung cause they dont make headlines. SWAT & other forms of specialized assets are tools that must be deployed judicially and reserved for felony incidents only if possible. Agreed they are sometimes overused kind of like calling FD ladder truck to get cat out of a tree. But the FD is usually praised when they get that cat down no matter the cost to the taxpayers where SWAT is blasphemed at the slightest mistake. But who among us remembers the days long ago when we had no one to call ? No SWAT no EMS no help. "You're on your own son, handle it" ! Anyone want to go back ?

2 Gunz

34 yrs LEO

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

For every example of "bad" policework there are hundreds that go unsung cause they dont make headlines. SWAT & other forms of specialized assets are tools that must be deployed judicially and reserved for felony incidents only if possible. Agreed they are sometimes overused kind of like calling FD ladder truck to get cat out of a tree. But the FD is usually praised when they get that cat down no matter the cost to the taxpayers where SWAT is blasphemed at the slightest mistake. But who among us remembers the days long ago when we had no one to call ? No SWAT no EMS no help. "You're on your own son, handle it" ! Anyone want to go back ?

2 Gunz

34 yrs LEO

No - just want the proper law enforcement used to fit the crime. There's a difference between a big ladder getting a cat out of a tree and militarized force going in the wrong house and shooting an innocent. Firemen don't break down doors in the night...apples and oranges...

 

FWIW: This thread is NOT MEANT to be a platform for cop bashing....of course there are MANY good things the police do compared to the bad apple bamboozleers out there.

 

Thanks for your service to the community

 

GG ~

[Krazy Kajun]

Just think what would have happened to those firemen that were held hostage inside a house in Gwinnett County GA recently. The kidnapper faked a fire call to 911 and when the firemen arrived he let them in his house where he then sprung his trap....armed to the teeth. It's a good thing that there was SWAT available, properly trained for the job.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Marshal Troop, please reread the AZ case. Your facts are a little skewed.

Okay, he actually was shot more. Cover-ups, etc. His home wasn't the only one wrongly raided by SWAT. Article is is good reading. I was a Deputy Sheriff, but would never consider anything like this appropriate. Call it what you want, but there are some that should never be wearing a badge, and there are some, because of being in an elite group like SWAT, are so eager to put on the military gear rather then check, double check, and check again that all facts, and at least the correct homes, or business are raided. All our discussions, agreement, or not, will not return this persons life. The man was correct, if my house was broken into in the night, I sure would be protecting it somehow. What ever happened to the old method of announcing yourself, surrounding the house, rather then bursting in. Now its break the door down and shoot. Sorry I don't go with the new methods. I have been involved with the old methods though, only once, was anyone hurt, that came from tear gas, and guy fell down a stairwell. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F05%2F25%2Fjose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html&ei=7DQVUo3mNOO82gXFtYDQBQ&usg=AFQjCNFze_8yNra8wc0888CT1VQZFv859w&sig2=piI5oyeSvyvnWL-woTu4Jw&bvm=bv.50952593,d.b2I

[royal barnes sass #5792]

Yep, it's got to all be true if it's in the Huffington Post. Go back and read the original newspaper articles from the time of the incident.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Yep, it's got to all be true if it's in the Huffington Post. Go back and read the original newspaper articles from the time of the incident.

if this is in regards to my op yes I have read several sources and it's basically all the same thing

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

if this is in regards to my op yes I have read several sources and it's basically all the same thing

I've also read the accounts from several other sources, pretty much the same. There was also a special on SWAT and some of the disastrous raids, etc. on Fox channel about a week ago. Also Hannity has covered this. I was going a lot by memory, rather then quoting directly originally. Even CNN early in the year had a short discussion on this disaster, but, never heard more from them. SWAT, as originally organized, and what its purpose and use, was a great concept. Hostage, bombs threats, etc. But has gotten out of hand lately. I've put my 2 cents into this discussion, much more, won't change someopinions, nor should they. Its just my feelings, what I've seen, heard from SWAT members. More will not make differences, you all know my feelings and thoughts, enough said. MT