What's the Call?

[Diamond S Doug]

Never mind I see Pale Wolf has spoken...and I was wrong..

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

Rowdy I agree that what your saying is the way it SHOULD be but the rule books do not support it. Everyone keeps tying the knockdown remaining to the unfired round. These are 2 separate penalties. For the knockdown penalty It does not matter if the shooter shot at it and missed, shot at it, hit it and it didn't fall or didn't shoot at it at all.The knockdown is counted as a miss because ROI Page 14 says "2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss." It has nothing to do with what a bullet did or did not do. The unfired round is an additional 5 second penalty because ROI Page 23 says that each unfired round is a 5 second penalty. It has nothing to do with the knockdown. The unfired round is a penalty whether the knockdown falls or not.. I cannot find anything in the rule book that supports your opinion. I wish I could.

 

ROI page 6 also says "6. Always refer to the SASS Shooters Handbook when stating the rules. Don’t quote them from memory; you may be wrong. Enforce the rules as written, not what you think they mean. The Range Operations Basic Safety Course and The Range Officer Training Course offer interpretations and clarifications of the rules and procedures referenced within the SASS Shooters Handbook that will be helpful in making the correct call." so that is what I have to do.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I think a lot of us are saying that a single round shouldn't cause two penalties, but as the rules are currently written it's a defendable conclusion that it can.

 

 

I would defend it as follows:

 

Was there a round left in the gun? Yes, assess a five second penalty per page 23 ROI.

 

Was there a knockdown left standing? Yes, assess a miss per stage instructions.

 

As I said before I don't like that conclusion, but I can't see a rule I can reference to defend only assessing one of the penalties.

A 5 second penalty for an unfired found assumes that said round is required to complete the stage. Again, a "miss" and an "unfired round" are scored the same because they result in the same outcome ie. a target not hit. What is the first question on the miss/flow chart?

The uniqueness of the OP results from the stage not requiring all ten rounds to complete the stage instructions. If we were to write stages so that every shot has a home then we would eliminate this confusion.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Rowdy Yates - are you speaking for yourself or for the RO Committee ?

 

If you are speaking for the RO Committee (in lieu of PWB) - GREAT, then the Call is settled.

 

We need someone speaking for the RO Committee to provide a Ruling after this kind of on going debate.

 

I view such RO Committee (PWB) rulings like Court Rulings. No more debate, enforce the Ruling.

 

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Rowdy Yates - are you speaking for yourself or for the RO Committee ?

 

If you are speaking for the RO Committee (in lieu of PWB) - GREAT, then the Call is settled.

 

We need someone speaking for the RO Committee to provide a Ruling after this kind of on going debate.

 

I view such RO Committee (PWB) rulings like Court Rulings. No more debate, enforce the Ruling.

 

 

Refer to post #66 for Pale Wolf's response.

[Uncle Tee Kay, Sass # 2494]

Original Post is One Miss and One Round not Fired

One round did not cause two penalty's.

Four Rounds had hits (No Misses)

Shooter had Five Rounds with Misses (But Four are not counted against him)

Shooter has Penalty for One Round not being fired)

Scored as One Miss and One Round not Fired

 

The Following should help you understand.

 

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS

1) Load two revolvers with 10 Rounds (Five Rounds Each)

2) Engage Five knockdown targets (Targets Must Fall)

3) Use dump target for remaining rounds.

 

Shooter knocks down all five knockdown targets with first revolver.

Second revolver was not loaded (or Bad Primers) and not fired at Dump Target.

Scored as Five Misses (Rounds Not Fired)

Shooter misses all five knockdown targets with first revolver.

Second revolver was not loaded (or Bad Primers) and not fired at Dump Target.

Scored as Five Misses and Five Rounds Not Fired

Shooter knocks down all five knockdown targets with first revolver.

Shooter misses Dump Target with all five rounds with second revolver.

Scored as Five Misses

 

 

 

 

[Snakebite]

The call should be two misses. A miss for the plate left standing and a miss for the round not fired. (I have changed my mind... the bad round is charged at 5 sec... it was that round that would have been used to shoot the plate... so, how can that round be given 10 sec worth of penalties? It just does not make sense to do that) I will stand corrected, and add that this just further shows the need for every bullet to have a target. VERY sorry for my miss--information.

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Personally, I'm not a big fan of these type of scenarios.. I've always believed that "EVERY BULLET SHOULD HAVE A TARGET".

 

BUT, CAS is a pseudo shooting event. It is much more than just a straight shooting competition. It is a Fantasy game in which both highly qualified and minimally qualified shooters play/compete on the same playing field. As a match director it is VERY important to give those who attend your match what they want, and the bulk of them want to do better than they would otherwise do if this was a straight shooting competition. This means a generous use of "Make up" targets, allowing 10 shots to get 5 targets down, using 36" square targets at 10 feet away, birds are all bonus, not misses, hitting any same type target is not a miss (this is another story).. yata, yata, yata, anything that will help a shooter, and lessen the effect of MISSING the target. It's OK... it's just a game............................RIGHT??

 

Snakebite

[Captain Bill Burt]

Now this is why the rules need the occasional tuneup. In this case we have two very respected SASS members, one a current ROC member and the other a former ROC member and they're offering different rulings. Rowdy says one miss and Snakebite says two. What's a poor TO to do? I would rather call one miss, but the rules (as I understand them) say it should be two. As I mentioned previously a catchall phrase similar to "A miss can't cause a P" would solve this. How about:

 

An unfired round can't cause both an unfired round penalty and a miss.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

 

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.

One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.

 

 

PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495

************************************

Hi Folks,

 

Although I would not have come to this conclusion from reading the rules, it is what many of us wait for and rely on to know how to make the correct call.

 

Unfortunately, most SASS members don't read the Wire. I try to keep up with rule clarifications and let folks on my mailing list know about these discussions. Unfortunately, we don't all remember every thing we've read and refer to the booklets when not sure. A clarification like this is not to be found.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Marauder SASS #13056]

 

I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

 

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.

One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.

 

 

 

 

PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495

************************************

 

As the lawyers say, "Asked and answered."

 

But obviously, we need some clarification.

 

Unfortunately, the more you add, the more you have to add later for clarification.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I think ya might be trying too hard...

 

Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss. It was/is

 

RO1 page 23 says each unfired round is a 5 second penalty. It was/or is as it was captured by the target left standing!

 

Still 1 miss. Next Shooter

 

Maybe if we had a list of those clubs what think a 10th round dud, a target still standing, and an unfired round in a revolver count as 2 misses...

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Hang in there folks. More to come.

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

I can hear the Jeopardy theme song now.............

[Snakebite]

Changed my mind... see post 112.
The ROC is correct..................again.

 

 

Snakebite

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I will ALWAYS go with the ROC's call. I hope I didn't shoot to fast here... I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this right now. I've reread the scenario. Once a shooter declares a malfunction some things change.

 

A 6 plate rack is be shot with the rifle and the remaining shots put on the Dump target. After 5 shots (and 5 plates down) the rifle jambed. That would leave one target left standing, and five rounds in the rifle... I would have a hard time giving the shooter 6 misses rather than 5 misses, due to the fact that he was unable to engage that 6th target due to a malfunction. I think I'll go have a glass of milk... they stopped sending me that big paycheck a while back...

 

Life is Good.

 

Snakebite

I'd have a hard time giving him more than one since the guy before him could have sent 4 over the top of the plates with no penalty.

The way I got this right in my head was to think of how many shots are required to complete the stage. In this instance six are needed and 4 are mulligans.

[Most Wanted]

Of course not. I would call one unfired round and that's it. But I would justify it because the shooter never fired at the plate and therefore, under the ROI definition of a miss, could not have 'missed' the plate. Under the OP stage instructions the definition of a miss is different. The plate was standing, shooter gets a miss.

You can't have it both ways . You added the extra wording to the rule to make that call "shooter never fired at the plate " and with that you justify your call . Thats why people keep going back to plate senerios . A standing knockdown is a miss . A unhit target is a miss , period . I know the rules need to be fixed but you already said you would score it differently for static targets . Stage instructions did not change the call .

 

Captain would you score this the same way if it were not knockdowns and just plates, in otherwords would you have awarded a miss for the target not hit and the unfired round...just wondering...also this has been a great learner thread...

[Most Wanted]

double tap

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

 

I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

 

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.

One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.

 

 

 

 

PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495

************************************

This is a good way to look at it, think of it from shooting the same stage with the rifle. Last round dud, ejected, shooters elects to take the miss and not reload a round. That would be scored as 1 miss since the shooter engaged (attempted to fire a round at the target) the target. Same thing happened with the pistol, shooter engaged the target, in fact the shooter went around twice. 1 miss for the target left standing, same as with the rifle. We have never scored a miss with the rifle for the ejected (engaged) unfired round and the miss on the target, only the miss on the target. The pistol should not carry a 5 second more penalty than the rifle for the same 10 shot string, I think

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Several of you have made some really good points and I can understand the confusion. I can only add that there will be a clarification on this issue. I brought this to the ROC and we are in agreement. I think the only thing I can add for now is the response given by PaleWolf:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Agreed!

The statement regarding unfired rounds 'inadvertently' left in a revolver was added to prevent assessment of the MSV that applies to long guns; also to avoid a ''P'' for GF's who can't count to ten before re-holstering.

Consider also a SQUIB situation...
Misses are counted for the bullet in the barrel, as well as for any round(s) remaining.
If the targets are KD's, the shooter is NOT given double penalties for any left standing; nor is he assessed a 'P' or FTE for not completing the sequence.

PaleWolf Brunelle,
SASS Life #2495

************************************

For now please consider that a dud round is only a miss and not also an unfired round.

[Grizzly Dave]

For now please consider that a dud round is only a miss and not also a round left in a gun. 'unfired round'

Red text above is my edit.

 

I can live with that, and perhaps that is the easiest way to think about it to clarify the intentions of the rules on this matter.

 

Of course it would still be argued that stage instructions take precedence, but I won't

 

My thanks to the ROC for their hard work!

 

Grizz

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

If the 10th round was a dud and the target didn't fall, assessing 2 misses for the one round is not too cool. Benefit of doubt goes to shooter... 1 miss only.

 

Elmer Keith said " Hell I was there"...

This is my take on it. The standing target was engaged, but the round did not go off - one miss only - gives the BOD to the shooter, which is where it belongs. Any time you can find a way to minimize the damage to his score, you get an "A" in BOD mentality.

 

CR

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Red text above is my edit.

 

I can live with that, and perhaps that is the easiest way to think about it to clarify the intentions of the rules on this matter.

 

Of course it would still be argued that stage instructions take precedence, but I won't

 

My thanks to the ROC for their hard work!

 

Grizz

You're right, I should have typed "unfired round".

[Griff]

So using your reasoning on this I could shoot the six knockdowns and knock them down(no misses there) then declare a malfunction for my last 4 rounds and not have any misses because II knew the unfired rounds were there and didn't "inadvertently" leave them

 

Never mind. I guess I'm just to stupid to get it.

Surprisingly, sixguns guns don't magically heal themselves, at the unloading table the LTO is quite likely to note the absense of a malfunction, and the four undamaged primers and call you out on it. That borders on unsportsmanlike conduct, and "an attempt to gain a competitive advantage," which have their own unique penalties.

 

As has been discussed previously on the wire, if you've attempted to fire the defective round, declare the malfunction and ground the revolver. No double jeopardy.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Would somebody pass the fork .

along with the wild turkey bottle

[Captain Bill Burt]

Some coke to go with that Wild Turkey please, and a little ice as well Jeeves.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

While all the pondering is going on, ponder this slightly difference stage: Five knockdowns (instead of six) and the stage ends with pistols. Shooter puts down all knockdowns with first five shots, pulls second pistol, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. Clean?

[Captain Bill Burt]

Is there a dump target? LOL, that's evil Buck, cause your next question is probably how do you call it if the first five shots fired are duds.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Five misses.

 

OOPs, I mean "unfired shots."

[Grizzly Dave]

Buck, 5 misses as there was a dump plate.

 

Burt - have the shooter declare a malfunction, hand off the gun, and count misses based on standing plates after the second pistol.

[Krazy Kajun]

Just one question here...what if the scenario took place like the OP said....and the shooter chose to do a reload and dropped the last knockdown target.

 

My question, does the shooter have to remove the unfired round out of his pistol when he does the reload? If he doesn't wouldn't he still incur the penalty of an unfired round in the revolver when he arrives at the ULT with the unfired round still in his revolver? Removing a dud round from a rifle or shot gun (assuming there was no jam) is a matter or working the action or in the case of a SxS just shucking the shell...removing one from a pistol...a little more challenging.

[Captain Bill Burt]

LOL, that's exactly what I thought Grizz.

 

Shooter has five duds first then cleans the KDs, some call clean, some call five 5 second penalties?

 

Shooter knocks down five THEN has five duds, some call clean, who calls five 5 second penalties?

 

I call 25 seconds in both cases cause in both cases you have five unfired rounds in a revolver.

[Grizzly Dave]

Reload and drop the knockdown, clean.

 

No need to take out the dud. Pistol is safe for movement after firing the reloaded round as it is hammer down on a spent round.

 

The unfired round penalty is associated with the stage round count, there are separate penalties for rounds left in long guns.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Rowdy Yates answered my question - he is speaking for the RO Committee. And the RO Committee will shortly offer a clarification.

 

Hopefully Rowdy will continue in this role until PaleWolf can return.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Rowdy Yates answered my question - he is speaking for the RO Committee. And the RO Committee will shortly offer a clarification.

 

Hopefully Rowdy will continue in this role until PaleWolf can return.

+1

[Most Wanted]

While all the pondering is going on, ponder this slightly difference stage: Five knockdowns (instead of six) and the stage ends with pistols. Shooter puts down all knockdowns with first five shots, pulls second pistol, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. Clean?

If stage is wrote just like op but with just five knockdowns and a dump target . Well that would be tough luck because that would be 5 misses . If he had the first pistol go snap , snap , snap , snap , snap and snap ( all duds ) then cleaned the knockdowns with the second pistol then that would be great luck because he is clean . Remember misses were free until all the knockdowns were down then he was to go to the static if any rounds were left . The duds in the first pistol was all the free misses he had availible since the knockdowns were still up .