SASS shooters get no respect

[Mustang Gregg]

 

Not REAL shooters?? What? Does he reckon we shoot blanks?

Hell, yes it is a REAL shooting sport (or game or hobby or habit).

90K+ members can't all be wrong.

 

We have seriously competed in a few different shooting disciplines.

Trap, 2700 pistol, NRA high power, military matches, bowling pins, metallic silhouette.

This has been the most enjoyable by far.

I'm not going to bang on any of the others, but there's a reason we shoot CAS almost as often as we can.

 

MG [& CJ]

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...

4 pages without a bunch of name calling indicates to me that either Allie Mo has deleted a lot or we're a lot closer on most of this and each other than some other discussions in the past....

 

Bravo to all who have posted on this thread! It is a good topic and discussion.

 

None of the Moderators have had to edit or delete any posts.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Thanks for the and back at ya Brother King.

[Mustang Gregg]

 

Overall, we're a pretty decent bunch, Allie. heheheheheh

 

MG

[charlietwogunz]

+1 Pitt Bull Tex opening line.....she needs hot walking coolin down a bath good brushing all by somebody good at it. Then a gallon and half of rolled oats some omolene 300 pat of good alfalfa and then all the water she wants cuz this old nag has earned her keep on this one Pards !

[Bart Solo]

If we wanted we could rag on IDPA, three gun, USPSA or bullseye. Every shooting sport has its own drawbacks, none is perfect. CAS is all about transition from gun to gun. No other shooting sport puts as much stress on smooth transitions. At the same time it is about hitting targets. You have to hit them whether they are up close or far away. It is a sport where you can't miss fast enough to win.

 

Each month I shoot CAS at three clubs. They are all different. One satisfies my need for speed. Another sets its rifle targets out to the SASS limit. The third is sort of in the middle. Since the match director at that club is left handed he is very aware of the advantages right handers often have so he forces us to move left to right as often as right to left. I don't feel short changed or that shooting cowboy is not real shooting.

 

I do know one thing, I started shooting handguns for real five years ago when I started SASS. I was 60 at the time. I learned all my pistol skills shooting cowboy. I am a middle of the pack sort of shooter, but when I go to the public range to practice I have discovered that on any given day I can shoot better than 95% of the other shooters on the line. I don't feel I need to work hard to catch up to the USPSA shooters I have recently been shooting with when it comes to hitting the A zone. I do need to work on running faster.

 

My point is you can learn to shoot straight and well shooting SASS. There is no need for any of us to feel short changed. The folks who look down on us do so out of ignorance or false pride. Don't pay them any mind.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Bravo to all who have posted on this thread! It is a good topic and discussion.

 

None of the Moderators have had to edit or delete any posts.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Thanks for the and back at ya Brother King.

I'm never washing my computer screen again.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

This is OT, but:

 

Since someone mentioned kids and IPSC - this kid is a pistol

 

 

and this 13 year old girl rocks it in this 3-Gun shooting discipline:

 

 

Then of course we have a number of young shooters who are dominating - Rattlesnake Wrangler (now Matt Black) as one example is only 14

 

As shooting disciplines we ALL need to support EACH OTHER!

 

GG ~

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

  

 

 

 

I believe both Bud and Spence were 16 or over before any titles above a state championships were won. Over-all that is. I could be mistaken on that.

 

Anyway there is a huge difference between 12 or 13 and 16 years of age.

I'm pretty sure Bud was 15 when he won EOT.....

 

Stan

[Colt McAllister]

 

This is OT, but:

 

Since someone mentioned kids and IPSC - this kid is a pistol

 

 

and this 13 year old girl rocks it in this 3-Gun shooting discipline:

 

 

Then of course we have a number of young shooters who are dominating - Rattlesnake Wrangler (now Matt Black) as one example is only 14

 

As shooting disciplines we ALL need to support EACH OTHER!

 

GG ~

 

 

They ever win the titles is what I want to know.

[Colt McAllister]

 

I'm pretty sure Bud was 15 when he won EOT.....

 

Stan

 

 

There is a big difference in kids 15 or 16 versus 12&13 don't you think?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

   

 

There is a big difference in kids 15 or 16 versus 12&13 don't you think?

About a foot in height.

[charlietwogunz]

I wish i had started at 13~16 instead of 60.....

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

   

 

They ever win the titles is what I want to know.

 

I am sure there is info on the web on young shooters like this - surf the web and see for yourself - I just wanted to show how cool it is that kids are competitive in some of the more popular shooting sports in addition to SASS. Go kiddos

 

http://www.womensoutdoornews.com/2011/04/sixteen-year-old-katie-harris-takes-top-honors-at-3-gun-nation-overall-junior-champion-in-3-gun/

 

GG ~

[Widder, SASS #59054]

O.K. Dan,

 

you've read all the post, comments, suggestions, and personal taste.

 

NOW, if you were going to set up a match, what targets do you think might be best and at what distances?

 

AND, do you think it would earn any respect from other shooting disciplines?

 

AND, will your match be just the 'right touch' that most of the paying customers will be happy and come back again?

 

 

..........NimbleSOB

[Guest Dusty Feller, SASS #20010L]

Do any of us really care what the other shooters think of us? If you do, why do you?

 

I have shot IDPA, IPSIC, skeet, trap, sporting clays, and had fun with them all.

 

However, SASS shooting is the most fun that you can have in a vertical position that isn't illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No, I am not a top shooter like some of those mentioned here, but I have shot with a lot of them

 

SASS shooters are the friendliest bunch of folks and they would have to be. After all, in a five hour match we get to shoot about 180 seconds (if you shoot six stages in thirty seconds each; a middle of the road time). You'd better have something more to offer than just the shooting time, and SASS offers lots of things in a big way.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

O.K. Dan,

 

you've read all the post, comments, suggestions, and personal taste.

 

NOW, if you were going to set up a match, what targets do you think might be best and at what distances?

 

AND, do you think it would earn any respect from other shooting disciplines?

 

AND, will your match be just the 'right touch' that most of the paying customers will be happy and come back again?

 

 

..........NimbleSOB

Best response yet.

Are "OUR" shooters getting bored by the target arrays? That is another thread.

 

But the OP was "Why do we get no respect?" And he leaned toward the big, close target arrays as the cause.

 

But the fact is - we wear funny clothing and shoot "obsolete" firearms.

 

Our game is not defensive, tactical or any other current shooting buzzword.

 

We carry no carbon fiber or kydex.

 

We don't appear to be equipped (at least not in the manner movies have told folks is necessary) to stave off foreign invasion or handle the zombie apocalypse.

 

We are viewed as relics. Obviously incorrect, but until someone else plays our game (and I have seen more than one "experienced" other disciplines shooter humbled by their introduction to cowboy), their perception is their reality.

 

With all of the above - moving our pistol targets out to 8 yards and our rifle out to 25 is not going to suddenly garner us the admiration of the masses.

Tho it may encourage some that enjoy our product to stay home.

[J-BAR #18287]

If I have the respect of those with whom I am shooting, that is sufficient.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

   

 

There is a big difference in kids 15 or 16 versus 12&13 don't you think?

When it comes to hand eye coordination....No.......

ability to manipulate....No.......

ability to control ones shooting based on what is available.....kid by kid basis

 

Do I think that our current crop would do as well if the stage designs were different......based on history NO their performance would suffer......but that and $1 will buy you a cup of coffee somewhere ( i think)......I have not shot with Matt Black or Missouri Lefty to know how they would do at a match with a variety of stage design. For all I know they MAY be able to handle it just fine. That's sure what I would wish for!!!!

 

AND

 

Let's be fair......it takes a LOT of ability to burn down 10 or 12 big and close stages......it might not be the ability that you or I have but that doesn't mean the ability is not required. Just as much as targets at a distance requires a certain skill set so does hyper speed shooting. Those young men have it......Some guys don't.....

 

 

 

Stan

[Cree Anders SASS# 97000]

I chose to shoot CAS as it was the one discipline that was more family oriented and because of the outfits as well as the guns used. The cowboy way also carrys over into my and my familys life away from the sport. It is the cowboy community the way friendships are developed and what I have found to be the genuine caring for those around us. There is much more to CAS shooting events than just the shooting. I have a great respect for all the shooting disciplines but have chosen CAS as my place to be.

[Cypress Sun]

Observations after five pages.......

 

- SASS shooters do not like being disrespected regardless of light loads, close targets or percieved funny dress. Nor do they make fun of other shooting sports (at least on a public venue).

 

- About 1/2 believe that the targets have gotten too close yet no one wants to shoot poker chips at 7 yrds or playing cards at 20 yards.

 

- It really isn't about large bore vs small bore or smokeless vs black. It's about respect as a whole.

 

- Delta Glen has posted more on this one thread than any other thread in SASS Wire history.

 

- Some SASS shooters participate in more shooting sports than just CAS.

 

- Phantom can and will agree with someone.

 

- Angus McNasty will get his butt kicked tommorrow at Eustis. Okay, maybe that wasn't in the five pages but I thought I'd point it out.

 

CS

[Madd Mike #8595]

re·spect

[ ri spékt ]

1. esteem: a feeling or attitude of admiration and deference toward somebody or something
2. state of being admired: the state of being admired deferentially
3. thoughtfulness: consideration or thoughtfulness

oh well

I have always been told that respect is earned and not just a given thing

I am not sure that ingorning why, is helping any cause any

 

edit:

I have the utmost respect for SASS / CAS

the folks that I have met traveling several states attending matches of all levels

well, it rockks mann

 

if I were to find out that someone did not respect me, I would work towards the end of better understanding, what caused the no respect, and is there anything that I could do to change or improve, to gain respect

 

personal respect or organization respect

just something to think about

how to make things better for the whole

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Have folks from the other shooting sports ever "respected" cowboy action shooters?

[Silver Shadow]

I think it makes the world a little darker place if you reserve your respect until it's earned.

 

I'd like to think I was raised to give a person respect until they give you a reason not to.

 

Kinda like ol' Will Rogers said "I never met a (person) I didn't like".

 

Course, I know a few I don't.

 

Silver "respect or not, I love this game" Shadow

[Blastmaster]

I respect SASS shooters safe gun handling!!!

 

 

I always wondered how Trap Shooters would react as they walk around with open SG in hand, if I stood in the parking lot sweeping them back with my locked back plastic pistol.?

[Madd Mike #8595]

Have folks from the other shooting sports ever "respected" cowboy action shooters?

yup

the ones that participate in CAS and more

[Madd Mike #8595]

I think it makes the world a little darker place if you reserve your respect until it's earned.

 

I'd like to think I was raised to give a person respect until they give you a reason not to.

good point

perhaps other shooting sports did just that

who knows

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Well...there's "Respect"...basic human respect...then there's the respect of the individual...that's earned.

 

And at my shop, I get folks that do the other shooting sports. When we talk about competitive shooting and they learn that I do "Cowboy", they almost always tell me how amazed they are at how we can get them old guns to rock as fast as we do.

 

They respect our game...for the most part.

 

Phantom

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I think I will continue to be unashamed.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Arrogant people typically aren't intelligent enough to open their mind. Their minds will not be changed by facts. Was this guy some super-duper beat-everybody-who-shows-up shooter? If not, he's not only arrogant, but dumb as a rock. I can think of a number of Florida shooters that I'd bet could spend a bit of time practicing with his style of gun(s) and whup the ever-lovin' fool out of him and most of his "pards." Dan, you're up for the challenge. Take the boy's money. Better yet, take his guns. You could turn Randi Rogers (Holy Terror) or Jessie Duff (Jasmine Jessie) loose on him and let him get his butt kicked by a couple of women. He still wouldn't change his mind about cowboy shooters.

 

Making the game more "challenging" benefits the top 10% of shooters, yet my careful scientific research has shown that 90% of our shooters are not in the top 10%. The stage writer's challenge is entertaining the majority without boring the minority. The more "challenging" the match, the more the top of the pack moves away from the rest.

 

I don't think the majority of people who shoot CAS care what "they" think of our guns, our clothes, or our shooting abilities.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I have spent many years learning my lessons in marketing. Thankfully I learned a long time ago to not listen to what the customer says, pay attention to what your customers do.

I also learned that potential customers are even a worse indicator of what you should or should not do. Mostly they are looking for an excuse to not buy your product.

If you want to try the "more challenging" route, then try it out in small doses on your own customers and observe their "ACTIONS".

I have seen local clubs try this and fail miserably, some even to the point of failure.

 

I won't even get into how poor we do as salesmen for our product.

 

DON'T

Buy trick or interesting targets unless you have a solid base of good old 16 X 16 squares and rounds. (And put them away when it comes to annual shoots. When a shooter spends hundreds of dollars to come shoot with you they don't want to learn how to shoot your trick targets)(This includes funny shaped targets unless they are ridiculously huge)

Don't make drastic changes unless you are about to fall off the cliff.

Don't make many of your stages "challenging". KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID

 

DO

Get a committee to write your stages and then you be the filter. They won't get stale that way. ( Give them a picture of the steel set and let them write the scenario) (Don't ask for volunteers... Tell them you would like their help. You pick um)

Keep your targets in good condition and painted.

Write your stages so that anyone can understand them without the posse leader EXPLAINING how to shoot them.

Stay within SASS recommended distances.

 

What I would like to see tried

Targets with knockout centers for bonus to promote accuracy, but not require it.

[Blastmaster]

From MM,

"re·spect

[ ri spékt ]

1. esteem: a feeling or attitude of admiration and deference toward somebody or something
2. state of being admired: the state of being admired deferentially
3. thoughtfulness: consideration or thoughtfulness

oh well

I have always been told that respect is earned and not just a given thing

I am not sure that ingorning why, is helping any cause any."

 

The topic at hand.. 'respect'. I basically agree, respect has to be earned. If you do not know or have witnessed someones moral/physical abilities, then there should be 'neutral' respect,,, not for, not against until you have made your observation(s). Of course, one ahhhh Sh@#$ can erase a whole lot of atta-boys and respect may be lost or damaged. You can respect someones atheletic abilities but disrespect their moral values.

 

No respect for Cowboy Shooting? I take that as a blanket statement for the entire sport/hobby,, not just a select minor percentile of the best in the sport. I can see why some outsiders may have minimal respect for the sport (shooting skills and not entertainment factor) as a whole. If they so happened to watch a few 80+second per stage shooters shooting at steel 3yds away and the steel was huge, with misses, no movement and so forth, how can you get enthusistic about that and say, wow, what great shooting skills?

 

A final note. It is interesting to see how people on this thread confuse the topic of respect with the entertainment that SASS provides. Equally, people try to place the skill of a few past/present champions as an example of the entire shooting crowd. Two completely seperate topics.

 

time to go shoot.

 

Blastmaster

 

[Colt McAllister]

 

Arrogant people typically aren't intelligent enough to open their mind. Their minds will not be changed by facts. Was this guy some super-duper beat-everybody-who-shows-up shooter? If not, he's not only arrogant, but dumb as a rock. I can think of a number of Florida shooters that I'd bet could spend a bit of time practicing with his style of gun(s) and whup the ever-lovin' fool out of him and most of his "pards." Dan, you're up for the challenge. Take the boy's money. Better yet, take his guns. You could turn Randi Rogers (Holy Terror) or Jessie Duff (Jasmine Jessie) loose on him and let him get his butt kicked by a couple of women. He still wouldn't change his mind about cowboy shooters.

 

Making the game more "challenging" benefits the top 10% of shooters, yet my careful scientific research has shown that 90% of our shooters are not in the top 10%. The stage writer's challenge is entertaining the majority without boring the minority. The more "challenging" the match, the more the top of the pack moves away from the rest.

 

I don't think the majority of people who shoot CAS care what "they" think of our guns, our clothes, or our shooting abilities.

 

 

So if I understand your theory, Winter Range will pretty much be down to 50 shooters soon right? I don't attend Winter Range, but most of my friends do and tons of shooters that I deal with do and every year I hear how it is the greatest match they attend. Plus the match gets tons of acolades on the wire every single year. If you listen to all of the people that say you need huge up close targets to keep the whole sport in tact, then why is Winter Range such a success?

 

I'm not trying to bust your chops here, just trying to make some sense of the sport.

[P.A. Dutchman]

Before I shot SASS I did 3 gun tactical. My pistol of choice was an S&W 586 revolver with speed loaders shooting against the semi auto crowd. I managed to usually finish in the top 25% even though the stages were not revolver friendly. Why did I quit and move to SASS? The people! Tactical was so competitive. Everything was a secret to the shooters as to not give away an advantage. At first you could only carry the ammo on you that the stage called for. If you had a jam you cleared it, took the miss, and moved on. Now you can carry as much ammo as you want "just in case" so you don't have to take a miss. New shooters come and most veterans won't give them any tips because they may do better and they'd drop in the final rankings. The final straw was when I was at a shoot, slipped on some wet grass and broke my ankle. Two friends of mine came over and helped me. The rest kept shooting the stage with one saying "That's his problem not ours". I just couldn't take it anymore so I visited a local cowboy shoot and got hooked. I get to shoot my beloved revolvers, shooters are there to have fun no matter if it is a good day for them or not, and everyone is willing to help anyone with advise or even equipment if need be. I find cowboy shooting to be just as challenging as tactical without the BS. So my response to someone saying that cowboy shooting isn't a real sport would be a smile and a response of "Well have fun at your shoot....I know I will have fun at mine."

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

   

 

So if I understand your theory, Winter Range will pretty much be down to 50 shooters soon right? I don't attend Winter Range, but most of my friends do and tons of shooters that I deal with do and every year I hear how it is the greatest match they attend. Plus the match gets tons of acolades on the wire every single year. If you listen to all of the people that say you need huge up close targets to keep the whole sport in tact, then why is Winter Range such a success?

 

I'm not trying to bust your chops here, just trying to make some sense of the sport.

Based upon what I know of Winter Range, I would say they're doing an excellent job of entertaining the 90% without boring the 10%. I read Deuce's response and "heard" that he spends hours at his kitchen table doing the same thing. It can be done, but caution must be used to avoid entertaining the 10% and punishing the 90%.

 

I hear what you're saying and what some of the other top 10% (more like top 1-2%) shooters here are saying, but many people read this and "hear" "challenging" to mean something severely different than what I believe is being said. Personally, a "challenging" match benefits me, but at the expense of those who typically finish below me. By the same token, a "challenging" match moves a 2% shooter miles away from me.

 

Other than the fact that course design affects attendance and therefore the number of folks I get to hang out with, I don't care. It doesn't change where I finish overall and really doesn't change where most fall overall, but if the match becomes overly challenging, it changes the fun factor for the 90% and in my opinion, that's a mistake.

 

I once did a comparison of two matches held on the same range one year apart. The latter match was "challenging." The shooters who shot close to me in the first match did so in the second. The shooters below me lost 8 seconds per STAGE on me. Sidekick (a 1% shooter) picked up 2 seconds (that's huge) per stage on me. The closer to the bottom a shooter was in the first match, their stage times were exponentially affected. Everybody shot the same matches, finished about the same place, but there weren't as many smiles at the second match as the first.

 

All I'm saying is: Stage writers, be careful.

[Red Cent]

Wow! The SASS wire has went from one of the most divisive site on the net to a bunch of respectful and vocal cowboys and cowgirls. From reading the post, it looks like we have practically eradicated the dreaded LBN disease.

 

The Old Sea Cow and Phantom have mellowed. You guys smoking something mellow?

 

Big and close. I always enjoyed watching the TOP guns getting the race on. Used to, there would be a train wreck. Not much anymore. Big and close? Dang It Dan, remember Mongo? Reminds me of the ubiquitous line "nothing is too big or close to miss". How true. I have many shooters step up in front of Mongo and get a case of the jitters. I have seen more live rifle rounds jacked out, more fingers pinched, and, yes, I have seen them miss Mongo.

 

The most poignant memory that fits the theme of this post is an annual match I used to attend. The Raid On Andersonville. Great match. Until the year someone from the bowels of SASS convinced the MD to change things. Targets were noticeably farther out. They were noticeably farther apart. And distances were random on the various targets. The howl arose after the match and the howl could be heard allover the east coast. The next year the MD notified everyone that "this " year, it would be like the old years. They would go back to the format that proven successful year after year.

 

I don't know if Dan is setting in front of his PC and laughing at the ruckus he created because, to me, it seems as if this thread has galvanized the cowboys and cowgirls. And it might convince a MD that he/she should put as target or two out that is, well,......different.

 

And it occurs to me that that we get older, our mental picture of SASS changes. I hope that old dreaded malady, LBN, is not creeping back into our midst.

 

Now let us discuss the merits of the "Stand and Deliver" stages.