Dropped Empty Pistol SDQ

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

I'm shocked at how many folks want to be lawyers-I am one and let me tell you arguing all the time gets old

 

The shooter has lost control of a firearm, he has earned a disqualification, the TO should stop him as soon as he can recognize what has happened and get the words out. An experienced TO may need a full second for the events to register and to react and the shooter will need a moment as well. There is no excuse for proceeding in any other manner. The score/time is irrelevant-it means nothing.

 

Imagine for the sake of argument that the shooter proceeds to draw or pick up the next gun, cocks it and it registers that he dropped his gun-now you have a competitor with a cocked gun in his hand and the realization he has maybe incurred a match ending penalty-will he turn to look, will he maintain muzzle control, will the realization interfere with his trained reactions, will he screw up more? None of these questions should need to be answered. A DQ is a DQ, the stage is done-we do not shoot except on the line and when it is our turn to shoot. Shooter's turn and continued right to shoot the stage ended when the gun left his hand.

 

 

"Cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water. Our shark.

Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you
ladies of Spain. For we've received orders for to sail back to Boston.
And so nevermore shall we see you again."

 

[charlietwogunz]

WOW & WHEW! Now i Know i will never be a T O.

[Jess Ducky]

I think GJ finally hit it on the head when he mentioned a hand on the shoulder of the shooter, done in conjunction with a stop command. As most of you know, when you are "touched" during a course of fire, it means something is wrong, and you freeze. If the touch was accidental, then a reshoot is called for. But we all, when acting as TO's, stand/move close enough to the shooter to reach out and touch them if something arises that calls for them to stop. Don't we...?

After fifty years of shooting, I am "fairly" deaf. With good ear protection in place, make that "mostly" deaf. Other shooters have the same handicap, and the TO cannot always count on verbal commands being perceived correctly. Hence the need to reach out and touch someone if you want them to stop.

It has been opined that if the shooter has gone on to another gun after dropping one, it is somehow unsafe to stop them in the middle of a string of fire. I have performed this action many times in the course of 23 years of CAS, and not once has the shooter gone on firing once I have laid hands on him/her. It is something we teach in our Cowboy orientation clases, that if the RO touches you, freeze! You stop the shooter immediatiately for any number of reasons--a squib load, a dud load, a child's head suddenly popping up over the top of the down-range berm (oh yes, it does happen) and any other thing, including dropped or fumbled or otherwise unsafe gun handling, that causes the pucker factor to suddenly elevate.

To say that it is unsafe to stop a shooter, no matter what they are doing, is simply not the case, in my experience. Many of us dispise "absolutes," hence the "it depends" response. We can sit and dream up any number of scenarios to make our point, what if he did this, or that, or whatever. On-the-ground reality should dictate a direct, postitive response to a safety violation. When it's called for, a firm, audible command to stop or cease fire, as well as physically gripping the shooter's shoulder or arm, will stop the shooter in his tracks. I am not saying this is always possible to do instantaniously. The TO may have to run after the shooter, especially some of the hot-dogs of the game, if that person has gone on with the stage while the TO is stuck for a brief second noting the gun on the ground...but once the TO gets to his man, he needs to lay hands on him immediately and stop him. Also, if the TO did not see the gun drop but the spotters did, they need to holler loud enough to alert the TO that a situation has developed calling for a ceasation of the stage.

As was previously noted, sometimes a gun can get dropped or fall over and no one notices until the stage is done. I, too, have seen this happen, most often with long guns that are not restaged correctly and topple. The fact that a gun was laying around unobserved is simply a fact of life...there is simply nothing to do about it until it is brought to light. But when infractions are directly observed, we need to respond...as the man said, if we don't react immediately and appropriately to what we do see, and can affect, then we are sending the signal that our game is not "tightly written" and alows sloppy, and potentially unsafe, gun handling. Ducky

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

RO1 page 13, item 3 "cease fire or stop" If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the timer operator will immediately shout, "Cease fire!" or "Stop!"

 

RO2 page 7

A range officer will immediately call a "Cease fire!" If any gun breaks the 170 rule.

 

The key word you're looking for here is IMMEDIATELY.

 

 

LD,

What part of the rules I quoted above do you find ambiguous?

 

 

How about every bit of both of them? This is a serious subject and I cannot for the life of me get the right of it in my own head.

 

Did an unsafe condition develop. Mebbeso. Mebbe not. Is a shot-dry single action revolver with the hammer down on a fired case dropped in the dirt an "unsafe condition"? No it is not. I do not care if shooter, the TO and the rest of the posse take turns kicking the gun downrange no amount of effort is going to be able to squeeze any more lead to come shooting out of the barrel. So to me that dog won't hunt. That means it is then TO's discretion what happens next. No one has showed me a black and white rule yet that convinces me otherwise.

 

Second, NObody said the muzzle broke the 170 now did they? We are now divided into two camps, each quite sure the other side is comprised of, if not idjits, then at least hammerheads. It is becoming increasingly strident and ever more vehement. I do not see either side giving up or giving in. It appears mine is the single solitary only mind that has been changed here. I started out in one camp but am now in the other.

 

Alla y'all sayin' such is so because ye believe it and feel it in yer bones that it is just plain common sense safety need to give it a rest. Like I said already, just because ye say it is so does NOT make it so. Except in your own minds. I was with ya but now I am not.

 

What we really need is someone in authority who outranks all the rest of us and our opinions (because until the official word comes down, that's all we are mouthing is our opinions) to issue a set in stone edict and flat out come out and tell us how it is and how it should be henceforth. Until then all we have is divergent and differing opinions and you know what they say about those.

 

I just do not know who is gonna step forth and issue the decree now that PWB is sick and cannot nursemaid us ...

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Lone Dog - I suggest you send a PM to Snakebite. He apparently does not have time to take over Palewolf's role, but may be able to deal with a specific request.

 

Take care.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

LD,

I am not gonna search out the specific quote, but it says in the rule books that a dropped gun is a major safety infraction. If a dropped gun is not an unsafe condition, why is the penalty a SDQ?

 

I don't think anyone is being hammer-headed. I just think they are wrong. In fact, I think this has been a very calm argument.

 

Possum

[Wyatt]

TO calls "Cease Fire" or "Stop". Shooter at this point has no idea what for. Could be squib, a dog running over the berm(true story), somebody's head poking up over the berm(another true story), a gun on the ground or one of a million things.

 

Shooter ignores TO.....thinks I know better, he is just suggesting I stop. Blows up gun, shoots dog, shoots good Pard, grinds gun in dirt or one of a million things. Every time I've heard the command "Stop" used the shooter did just that, PERIOD.

 

Point is, when the TO calls "Stop" there is a reason that the shooter may not be aware of.

 

I go to have fun with my friends and not to be in fear for my life.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Can't believe this is still going. Is the rule not clear? Drop a gun and yer dun. Loaded - fer the day. Unloaded fer the stage. Dun means DUN!

 

CR

[charlietwogunz]

If its only a sdq using rank scoring you still have a chance to WIN !

Saw it one time with TWO sdq's. Not to worry, just thank Rank Scoring!

[Captain Bill Burt]

I believe it was Jeff Cooper who stated that the first rule of gun safety was "All guns are always loaded."

 

Just because you counted five shots does NOT mean that gun is unloaded. Would you allow your child to pick up that 'unloaded' gun and place the muzzle to his or her head because you counted five shots? Do you trust the LTO (if you even have one) that much? I hope not. The rules clearly state that a TO shall immediately call cease fire if an unsafe condition develops. There's now a gun on the ground the condition of which is unknown. The rules classify this as a major safety violation. An unsafe condition has developed, it's time to call cease fire. I won't quibble over a second or two here or there, but it's certainly inappropriate to allow the shooter to finish the stage. What is the point? They're DQed.

[Hoss]

I've been reading this thread, and I origionally was in the "let the shootier finish a string" camp, because it may be more unsafe to stop a fast guy mowing down those rifle targets than than to just let him finish, but after reading others thoughts, reading the rules, and thinking about general gun safety, I've changed my mind. TO should call for STOP or cease fire as soon as he/she is aware of an unsafe condition. That being said, I'm not going to second guess a TO who allows a shooter to finish a string, TO is entitled to a little lattitude to use his own good judgement. I'm sure any TO would call for a ceasefire if a pard/kid/dog/cow/alien sundenly popped up on top of the berm, no matter how fast the shooter was going.

 

Every shooter should be able to cease fire upon command. If you can't, you probably should not be shooting. If you are hard of hearing, a touch by the TO should do the trick. This would not be a bad "training exercise" to do while practicing, or even at a monthly. We all need to be conditioned to be ready to stop shooting on command.

 

This has been a good thread to get one to thinking......and learning.

[Shooting Bull]

I believe it was Jeff Cooper who stated that the first rule of gun safety was "All guns are always loaded."

 

Just because you counted five shots does NOT mean that gun is unloaded. Would you allow your child to pick up that 'unloaded' gun and place the muzzle to his or her head because you counted five shots? Do you trust the LTO (if you even have one) that much? I hope not. The rules clearly state that a TO shall immediately call cease fire if an unsafe condition develops. There's now a gun on the ground the condition of which is unknown. The rules classify this as a major safety violation. An unsafe condition has developed, it's time to call cease fire. I won't quibble over a second or two here or there, but it's certainly inappropriate to allow the shooter to finish the stage. What is the point? They're DQed.

 

A gun on the ground is unsafe. Okay, I'm sure not going to be the one to say that it IS safe but, how unsafe is it? What's it going to do? Having been a safety instructor for more years than I care to admit, a phenomenon I've noticed a lot is people actually creating hazards by going overboard "for safety". We, as 2nd Amendment supports, are the first ones to scream that guns are inanimate objects that are incapable of doing anything on their own. So again I ask, what's this gun on the ground going to do?

 

I ask that question because you stated that you wouldn't quibble over a second or two. That's what we're talking about when we say that SOMETIMES it's safer to let the shooter finish what they're doing before stopping them. I've seen shooters transition from pistol to rifle and get off their 10 shots in a matter of a couple of seconds. You can say it's right there in the rule book in black and white all you want but I, as the TO, am going to make my decision based on being there at that specific moment in time. I'll also point out that rule books can't EVER cover every possible scenario. It just can't be done. That's why we have living breathing people there safely assisting shooters through the course of fire.

 

I'm in no way saying the rule is incorrect or that I wouldn't stop the shooter. I'm saying that when I'm running the timer I'm going to do what I think is safest for the shooter and everyone else at that moment in time. If that means not stopping them the instant the gun hits the ground, so be it.

[Captain Bill Burt]

A gun on the ground is unsafe. Okay, I'm sure not going to be the one to say that it IS safe but, how unsafe is it? What's it going to do? Probably nothing. But perhaps one time out of one hundred thousand that gun will have a live round in it that you're unaware of. Perhaps one of those one in one hundred thousand times that gun with a live round will get kicked or stepped on, perhaps it doesn't have a transfer bar and gets kicked in the hammer. Or maybe the shooter just trips over it. With as many of us shooting as there are, and considering the vast numbers of rounds we send down range, there's a chance that a long shot probability like that will eventually happen. What then?

 

If it's not unsafe, then why is dropping that 'unloaded' gun a penalty that results in a SDQ? If we determine it was empty and posed no danger why isn't it just a MSV?

 

I ask that question because you stated that you wouldn't quibble over a second or two. That's what we're talking about when we say that SOMETIMES it's safer to let the shooter finish what they're doing before stopping them. I've seen shooters transition from pistol to rifle and get off their 10 shots in a matter of a couple of seconds. You can say it's right there in the rule book in black and white all you want but I, as the TO, am going to make my decision based on being there at that specific moment in time. I'll also point out that rule books can't EVER cover every possible scenario. It just can't be done. That's why we have living breathing people there safely assisting shooters through the course of fire.

 

I'm in no way saying the rule is incorrect or that I wouldn't stop the shooter. I'm saying that when I'm running the timer I'm going to do what I think is safest for the shooter and everyone else at that moment in time. If that means not stopping them the instant the gun hits the ground, so be it. If I were on a posse with you and you made that call I would have no problem with it whatsoever. I do object to the attitude of 'what's the harm in letting them finish the stage'. That's a very different position from the one you've taken.

[charlietwogunz]

Question: has anyone ever saw an active shooter in a sass match drop a gun and not know it ? The few times i have seen it was like an E F Hutton moment where everybody seemed to freeze in time as the rumbling echo of the dropped pistol reverberated throughout the posse ! Jest Wunderin'.

[Wyatt]

Yes I have. I was spotting and the shooter did not know it and th TO didn't see it. I yelled stop. They both turned around and the gun was underneath the shooters heal.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Several times I've seen a fast shooter run out from under a revovler that just didn't stay in his/her holster, and they didn't know it. A few where long gun goes back down on a table or shelf, bounces around some, and then falls off a second or two later as the shooter is charging off to the next position. I've even dropped a couple in the dirt meownself, but I always have known it as I let go of the grip. We're not talking a once-in-a-blue-moon occurance for there to be a gun on the ground.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cactus Whiskey, SASS #75905]

If its only a sdq using rank scoring you still have a chance to WIN !

Saw it one time with TWO sdq's. Not to worry, just thank Rank Scoring!

Not possible Charlie. Two SDQs is a MDQ

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Whether the revolver is shot dry or not is immaterial AT THAT MOMENT. I was taught at a very early age to treat every firearm as loaded until it is verified that it is not. Therefore, a dropped gun is unsafe until verified. That is why we have the TO do that. Not the shooter, not one of the counters, not the scorekeeper. Stop the shooter as quickly and safely as possible. He/she is done. If a mistake occurs, shooter can get a reshoot. It really is that simple.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Lone Dog - I suggest you send a PM to Snakebite. He apparently does not have time to take over Palewolf's role, but may be able to deal with a specific request.

 

Take care.

Hi C0ckr0ach!

 

Although Snakebite is a great source of information, he is no longer a member of the RO Committee.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[charlietwogunz]

Dan

I guess that wuz a testament to how bad the rest of us were shootin'!

O well. Try again next month.