Dropped Empty Pistol SDQ

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Had it happen at a stateblevel match. Allowed the shooter to continue for a recorded time. This was briefed at the start of the match. Let the shooter continue the atring and assess penalties after the string. The pistol was shot empty and missed the holster while drawing the second pistol and already had the second pistols cocked. The pistol was under the prop and was not immediately accesable. After the string, and clearing the pistol, notified the shooter of a stage DQ. Circumstances should be taken into account. The shooter already had the second pistol put and cocked before the TO could react. After the SDQ the shooter requested a reshoot based on TO interferance. TG s osided with the TO. No Reshoot.

[Jake Stoner , SASS # 28994]

Gun leaves hand.

Gun hits ground.

Stop.

Next shooter.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

The RO2 book does say, on page 11, you will call an IMMEDIATE cease fire if any gun breaks the 170.

[Black Tom]

Every shooter should be able to STOP when told to by the TO. Don't care the reason the TO says STOP or CEASE FIRE you do it. Could be a dropped gun or something unsafe down range like someone wandered onto the range. As far as the dropped gun it is A SDQ the book calls for the shooter to stop, not to finish the stage. IF he is allowed to finish the stage after a SDQ for a dropped gun which is a major safety. I'm not a lawyer but would hate to see what one would do if the shooter did another unsafe act that hurt someone after they where supposed to be DQ'ed

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

As is the answer much of the time - it depends.

Yes, we are all aware the penalty for dropped empty pistol is a SDQ.

And the shooters stage FOR A RECORDED TIME is over right then.

 

But as TO... What am I going to do? It depends.

 

A shooter might be unaware of the drop and continue on like nothing has happened.

If this shooter gets their rifle up and functioning or shotgun up and running - I will likely let them complete their stage. Or at least that next firearm.

I feel it is safer to let them complete their gun functions than yelling commands to stop them on a NON injurious safety related issue, with a loaded gun in hands.

(and yes, I know it is a safety penalty - but an empty pistol lying in the dirt is not dangerous)

And the OP stated EMPTY pistol - my answers hinge on that knowledge.

A loaded pistol is another animal altogether.

 

A shooter that is aware of the dropped pistol - I will stop them immediately.

It just depends on the situation.

+1

[Most Wanted]

As is the answer much of the time - it depends.

Yes, we are all aware the penalty for dropped empty pistol is a SDQ.

And the shooters stage FOR A RECORDED TIME is over right then.

 

But as TO... What am I going to do? It depends.

 

A shooter might be unaware of the drop and continue on like nothing has happened.

If this shooter gets their rifle up and functioning or shotgun up and running - I will likely let them complete their stage. Or at least that next firearm.

I feel it is safer to let them complete their gun functions than yelling commands to stop them on a NON injurious safety related issue, with a loaded gun in hands.

(and yes, I know it is a safety penalty - but an empty pistol lying in the dirt is not dangerous)

And the OP stated EMPTY pistol - my answers hinge on that knowledge.

A loaded pistol is another animal altogether.

 

A shooter that is aware of the dropped pistol - I will stop them immediately.

It just depends on the situation.

yep

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Every shooter should be able to STOP when told to by the TO. Don't care the reason the TO says STOP or CEASE FIRE you do it. Could be a dropped gun or something unsafe down range like someone wandered onto the range. As far as the dropped gun it is A SDQ the book calls for the shooter to stop, not to finish the stage. IF he is allowed to finish the stage after a SDQ for a dropped gun which is a major safety. I'm not a lawyer but would hate to see what one would do if the shooter did another unsafe act that hurt someone after they where supposed to be DQ'ed

Every shooter SHOULD be able to stop.

Every shooter SHOULD be able to determine who is yelling at them; what direction is being yelled and be able to do so without becoming flustered or confused.

 

But in real life - everything does not always happen as it should (obviously, or we would not be discussing a dropped gun).

And because I KNOW not every shooter will always respond or react as they SHOULD - I reserve the right to direct the shooters actions in the safest manner that I know how based on the individual shooter and the surrounding circumstances.

 

And that manner will always be - It depends.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Every shooter should be able to STOP when told to by the TO. Don't care the reason the TO says STOP or CEASE FIRE you do it. Could be a dropped gun or something unsafe down range like someone wandered onto the range. As far as the dropped gun it is A SDQ the book calls for the shooter to stop, not to finish the stage. IF he is allowed to finish the stage after a SDQ for a dropped gun which is a major safety. I'm not a lawyer but would hate to see what one would do if the shooter did another unsafe act that hurt someone after they where supposed to be DQ'ed

Tom where in the book does it say the shooter has to "stop, not finish the stage"? I went looking for that very thing but could not find it. Yes it says it is a SDQ, we are all clear on that. BUT nowhere does it say in black and white no ifs ands or buts what should or must happen immediately after the gun hits the ground. In the absence of any definite rule, I am gonna have to change my mind about what I and so many including apparently you thought was so. If it ain't in there in black and white then it just ain't so.

 

SOOO, it is TO's discretion and I stand corrected and will have to tell my buddy, bad as I hate to, that he was right and all of us who were going thru life thinking TO's should issue a verbal command to stop the shooter were wrong.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

SOOO, it is TO's discretion and I stand corrected and will have to tell my buddy, bad as I hate to, that he was right and all of us who were going thru life thinking TO's should issue a verbal command to stop the shooter were wrong.

You are not incorrect - The TO SHOULD issue that command.

But only at such time when it is safe, prudent and responsible to do so; based on all the factors present: The shooter, the range, the infraction and the potential for a less safe action to occur.

That's why we Timer Operators get the big bucks

[Griff]

The TO should issue an IMMEDIATE "STOP", "CEASE FIRE" or otherwise stop the shooter from continuing. Waiting until it is "safe"? Yes, it may take some TOs a half second to recognize the dropped gun, and in that time the shooter may have pulled that second hogleg and even gotten a shot or two off... but... "STOP/SCEASE FIRE" could be called at any time for a number of reasons and the shooter should immediately heed the instruction! PERIOD.

 

And, as for determinations? What about whether the gun swept anyone, or lays on the ground pointed uprange?

 

23. Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Dis-qualification. An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a "Prop Failure" call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance.

 

As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest – wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all).

While the OP states that the revolver was "empty", how was that determination made? By the fact that the shooter shot five shots and attempted to holster? An inaccurate methodology for determining that the gun was "empty". Ergo, the rule for the TO/RO to clear the weapon and determine what penalties are applicable.

 

I can't think of anyone that doesn't dislike receiving a SDQ, and don't know anyone that only slightly less dislikes giving them... BUT, the rules call for the call to be made, immediately upon determining that the infraction has occurred. Circumstances and facts can change from incident to incident, but, IF you as the TO handle them all in the same fashion, you should be prepared to handle the worst case scenario in the same manner as the least worst case scenario. What if the gun were lying there pointed up range and had a round under a cocked hammer...? Does the safety of your fellow ROs (spotters, scorekeeper, brass pickers), mean so little? Not to mention the rest of the posse and any possible spectators. What do you think the reaction of some one that is observing might be in regards to your safety practices if you continue to let the shooter finish the stage?

 

Forgive me, but some o' y'all need a dose of reality every once in a while. SAFETY FIRST!

 

And if you think I ain't bein' emphatic enough? !#$%^&!#$%^&**&^%$##$%^!! There... I got my cussin' outta my system.

[Hikes Point Hank]

Sometimes, as a courtesy to "good cowboys" who play fair and interact well with the others, my posse will "unravel" or "un-twist" that shooter by telling them to get ready for a reshoot that aint gonna count when everybody is done shooting. We feel like it erases the negative vibes and lets you leave with a feeling of accomplishment instead of a feeling of defeat. Doesnt happen very often and usually we're too much in a hurry to get out of the heat but it's kinda cool that we care enough about each other to do this.

Just a thought........

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Tom where in the book does it say the shooter has to "stop, not finish the stage"? I went looking for that very thing but could not find it. Yes it says it is a SDQ, we are all clear on that. BUT nowhere does it say in black and white no ifs ands or buts what should or must happen immediately after the gun hits the ground. In the absence of any definite rule, I am gonna have to change my mind about what I and so many including apparently you thought was so. If it ain't in there in black and white then it just ain't so.

 

SOOO, it is TO's discretion and I stand corrected and will have to tell my buddy, bad as I hate to, that he was right and all of us who were going thru life thinking TO's should issue a verbal command to stop the shooter were wrong.

RO1 page 13, item 3 "cease fire or stop" If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the timer operator will immediately shout, "Cease fire!" or "Stop!"

 

RO2 page 7

A range officer will immediately call a "Cease fire!" If any gun breaks the 170 rule.

 

The key word you're looking for here is IMMEDIATELY.

[Black Tom]

Thanks Possum, just saved me some typing. was sitting here looking at the RO1 right now:)

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Creeker's point is correct. This was discussed some time ago. PWP's position, was that all commands are given (and actions taken) when it is "timely and safe" to do so. The TO is the Officer responsible to manage the shooter safely through the course of fire. "immediately" cannot mean to do something that is unsafe. But when the TO can safely stop the shooter, the TO must do so.

[Cowboy Junky]

I'm with Creeker.......too many variables to give a black & white one size fits all answer. I was spotting at a match once and ALL the spotter's were holding up fingers and the TO was starting to call out the time for a shooter that just completed a stage. Looking down by my feet I saw a stainless pistol lying on the ground. It kinda' gives that that weird feeling of "normal....its a gun" but yet really out of place all at the same time.......lol

 

This was a stage with forward movement and no body saw it hit the ground until I almost stepped on it after the stage was completed. It was the off side of the shooter so the TO didn't see the empty holster.....at least right away. My point is the whole posse missed it and that is an extreme case.....but just goes to show what can happen.

[Griff]

I'm with Creeker.......too many variables to give a black & white one size fits all answer. I was spotting at a match once and ALL the spotter's were holding up fingers and the TO was starting to call out the time for a shooter that just completed a stage. Looking down by my feet I saw a stainless pistol lying on the ground. It kinda' gives that that weird feeling of "normal....its a gun" but yet really out of place all at the same time.......lol

 

This was a stage with forward movement and no body saw it hit the ground until I almost stepped on it after the stage was completed. It was the off side of the shooter so the TO didn't see the empty holster.....at least right away. My point is the whole posse missed it and that is an extreme case.....but just goes to show what can happen.

 

You are not incorrect - The TO SHOULD issue that command.

But only at such time when it is safe, prudent and responsible to do so; based on all the factors present: The shooter, the range, the infraction and the potential for a less safe action to occur.

That's why we Timer Operators get the big bucks

 

To be blunt about it. Y'all be WRONG then. Re-take your ROI course... The operative word is "immediately" call a cease fire. Immediately, upon ANY major safety infraction is the safe and prudent time to call the cease fire.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Shooter must be ready and able to obey a Cease Fire command at any time. Right out of the rule book.

 

“Cease Fire!” or “Stop!” If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator will immediately shout “Cease Fire!” or “Stop!” The shooter is to stop firing or moving immediately. Failure to heed this command is serious and may result in a Match Disqualification.

 

(If the hammer is falling already, OK, shooter can't fix physics. But they sure should be able to prevent the next round being fired.)

 

I can foresee nothing that would enter my mind as a TO which would make me think it would be more dangerous to issue a Cease Fire command instead of allowing the shooter to continue with a stage when there has been a serious safety problem. Round hits ground within 5 feet of shooter? Round through a non-disposable prop? Don't want him shooting any more. Dropped gun, I also don't want him shooting any more rounds on this stage.

 

Educate me about the conditions under which you think a shooter gets to continue because it would be "dangerous to stop them."

 

Good luck, GJ

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

OK - very fast shooter. Shoots 10-10-4 in 15 seconds. Shooter shoots pistols. On holstering, second pistol falls to ground. Shooter picks up rifle and starts shooting. It is safer to wait until shooter finishes rifle, it is open and empty, then call Stop or Cease Fire. Interrupting a very fast shooter could cause an errand round. Not hypothetical ! I have observed more than once. It is the TO's responsibility to manage the shooter safely through the course of fire. The TO must call Stop, but in a manner in which the TO believes it is safe to do so. Safety overrides everything. "immediately" cannot mean "unsafe" in the judgement of the TO. We are not robots - we exercise judgement.

[Hoss]

i'm not a TO..yet.... but am looking forward to taking the RO classes. I try to pay attention to the things a TO does, and learn from them. I could see in some cases it might be as well to let a shooter finish a string before stopping them. its kind of like trying to stop a golf swing, which for me is nearly impossible. May be safer to let shooter finish the string. TO has to make a quick decision. There is obviously a LOT more to being a good TO than just being able to work the timer.

[Griff]

OK - very fast shooter. Shoots 10-10-4 in 15 seconds. Shooter shoots pistols. On holstering, second pistol falls to ground. Shooter picks up rifle and starts shooting. It is safer to wait until shooter finishes rifle, it is open and empty, then call Stop or Cease Fire. Interrupting a very fast shooter could cause an errand round. Not hypothetical ! I have observed more than once. It is the TO's responsibility to manage the shooter safely through the course of fire. The TO must call Stop, but in a manner in which the TO believes it is safe to do so. Safety overrides everything. "immediately" cannot mean "unsafe" in the judgement of the TO. We are not robots - we exercise judgement.

"Unsafe" has already left the barn at that point. The fast shooters are the ones with the most "situational awareness", the ones best able to adapt to new input. But, they're ones that I want to shut down before they grab up another gun and attempt to move with a gun around their feet. EVERY shoooter should be attuned to the command "CEASE FIRE" or "STOP", regardless of their relative speed. For that command can be givem at any time for any number of reasons.

 

Firearm rule #1: Treat every firearm as tho' loaded. Dropped loaded gun... eggregious safety violation. "Cease Fire" immediately... period.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If a shooter is running guns so fast and furiously that he cannot SAFELY and IMMEDIATELY respond to a Cease Fire command, then by definition he has earned a Match DQ. See the very important safety rule that I quoted in post 52.

 

Educate me some more where it is thought to be safer to let the shooter continue to fire when there is a dropped gun on the ground. This example didn't pass.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

As an example of getting the "Cease Fire" or similar command dropped in your ear, let me spin a yarn from a monthly match a few weeks ago.

 

Stage had rifle as second gun, had just gotten through ripping off a good pistol string. So was ready to really turn the dogs loose on the rifle. First shot in rifle squibbed! Got lever open, and heard the wide-awake TO shout "Squib." Oh, I really wanted to keep on with the run. But, got my mind wrapped around what that command meant, staged rifle and moved on to shotgun. All shooters have to keep their sense of situational awareness active, and one ear tuned to what the TO has to tell you. If you don't, nasty, possibly expensive and possibly dangerous surprises will ruin your day.

 

GJ

[Utah Bob #35998]

The stage has been DQ'd once the gun hits the ground.

 

Stop the shooter.

 

I think if it was determined that there was a prop failure (not in this case), that the shooter would be given a reshoot.

 

What sez you?

 

Phantom

Yup. Gun hitting the ground is a big STOP button.

With a red light.

And a siren.

[Most Wanted]

When possible it is always safer to unload a gun pointing it down range than cycling it at the unloading table . I have seen people shoot the table and other guns . Possum Skinners two rule quotes may not apply to every situation . Did the gun break the 170 ? Did TO call for a cease fire ? If so then yes the shooter should stop immediatly . But the call is the TOs based on safety . If an empty gun laying on the ground is always so unsafe then why is it a no call when it is away from the firing line . Garrison Joe , what the rule says about not stopping on a cease fire command is " Failure to heed this command is serious and MAY result in a match dq " . Why do you think they used the word may instead of will . Because not all situations are the same . Some people take longer to stop than others . Some people will never follow a squib with a hot round and some will simply because of how fast they shoot . Nobody wants to be unsafe , like Creeker said " it depends " .

[Crazy Mingo]

Heeee Haaaa,, Just happened to me a few weeks ago.. The stage called for either stage the pistol on the table or return to leather.. In my mind I was going to transfer the mt pistol to my left hand set it on table .. right hand to pick up rifle..WELL muscle memory kicked in and I try to return to leather.. I was told that I went from table to leather a few times and just let it go..It hit my boot I pick up the rifle and sent 10 down range set the rifle down and turned and looked at the TO.. He asked me politely if I was done yet.. I told him yes and walked off the stage with my head down and somebody carring my pistol..

 

Heeee Haaa Crazy Mingo

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

A mind is a terrible thing to waste...

[Barry Sloe]

I really, really don't understand why this seems to be so hard.

 

It does seem apparent that some folks need to pull out the ROI & ROII books, downloads, whatever and review the areas that cover safety AND the TO/Range Officer responsibilities.

 

Yes there are lots of variables, but the bottom line is "Stop/Cease Fire". TO or other Range Officer picks up the revolver and clears it. Stage is over for that shooter. Next shooter.

 

Barry Sloe

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Nope. Too many are claiming it is so perfectly obvious.

 

When it ain't. It just ain't there. Nowhere. Too many are assuming it is there in black and white that the books say in so many words that stop must be immediate.

 

They don't. You may think in your own head (Griff et al) that is a no-brainer just because that is how you want it to be.

 

Sorry. Creeker has come closest so far to nailing the right of it.

 

If alla y'all want the rule to say so ye are gonna have to put it in the books in so many words. All it says now is that it is a SDQ.

 

That's it. SO until the wording is inserted it IS the TO's discretion. As I was advised by the TO this past Saturday.

 

I was sure he was wrong then.

 

Now I'm not sure of anything but am leaning toward he was right.

 

Right as rain. What's right is right, law and order every time that's us. BUT you cannot say something IS so just because you have always believed it was after being shown it ain't. Whether you like that or don't like it. Whether it offends your "common sense" no-brainer safety sensibilities or not...

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

LD,

What part of the rules I quoted above do you find ambiguous?

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

It seems we all agree that the rule is to immediately call Cease Fire or Stop.

 

The Rules also say it is the responsibility of the TO to safely manage the shooter through the course of fire.

 

Thus, the TO - if in his/her Judgement it is safer to let the shooter complete a shooting string - TO can do so before calling Stop or Cease Fire. As both of the above responsibilities are in effect at the same time.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

We've seen on ethe Wire a real life example recently of a club questioning whether SASS events follow their range-wide safety standards. We've heard second hand reports recently that SASS is still not respected by several other shooting disciplines.

 

Just what do you think some of these "detractors" say when they see a SASS match, and a gun lying on the ground that no one seems to care about, because the shooter is continuing on with the stage. "Well, the TO decided on his own that it just wasn't the right time to stop the shooter," the match director explains to the audience questioning why one of the major tenants of gun safety, "Keep the gun and it's muzzle under control at all times" is being violated.

 

We've all got shooters and posse members to keep safe, and new shooters to influence and start out on the right foot, and even range owner rules and insurance policies to comply with. Letting a shooter continue shooting his stage after a SDQ serves these goals very poorly.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Well said, GJ!

[Cowboy Junky]

OK lets look at this:

 

I'm the TO and I'm doing my job and I count 5 rounds come out of the pistol as the shooter holsters his off side holster but he missed.......being a good shooter his other hand brought the rifle up at the same time.......so about the same time the gun hits the ground the rifle is blazing away..........and don't think that can't happen. Then lets say he also a bit hard of hearing and VERY focused shooter I deal with on a monthly basis.

 

I don't care how much you want to throw "safety" at me.........I won't stop that guy until he is finished with the rifle and there is a pause.....if its a barn burner S&D there may not be a break........ The potential of a safety issue is 100 times greater trying to stop him (under those circumstances) than leaving an empty gun lying on the ground.

 

While saying we need RO training may sounds good on the wire......to those I would say Barney Fife KNEW all the rules but Andy was a better at applying them.

[Shooting Bull]

I'm the TO and I'm doing my job...

 

That right there seems to be all that needs to be said. TO should SAFELY assist the shooter. Unless you're standing there next to the shooter and his dropped gun you don't know all the variables and therefore can't make a 100% conclusive determination on what should be done at that exact moment.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'll say this once again, and then let you guys who want to ignore some of the rules continue with your discussion.

 

Any shooter who cannot comply with a Cease Fire command correctly given is endangering the rest of the match, it's attendees and organizers. If a feller is hard of hearing, you have an arranged signal with the shooter that says "Stop" - with one of my favorite hard of hearing pards, it's a hand placed on his shoulder. Distracting - perhaps. "Cease Fire" is supposed to be distracting. If his reaction to being stopped is unsafe, that is the shooter's unreasonable reaction to the cease fire command. Remember one of our major rules - a shooter must be able to respond safely to a Cease Fire immediately or he earns a Match DQ. Every range officer in every shooting discipline will tell you that same thing....Buddy, if you don't honor my Cease Fire, you are outta here.

 

TO, do your job within the confines of the existing, universal safety rules, or you endanger the future of the game. You don't get to pick over the major safety rules without risking everything we enjoy. Enforce the rules, or act civily to get them changed if you believe they are wrong.

 

Thanks for your patience on this thread, your attention to the great game of SASS, and caring enough about safety that EVERYONE ALWAYS goes home without injury. GJ

[Hawkshaw Fred SASS #36811]

While I AGREE 100% that CEASE FIRE should be called IMMEDIATELY and stop the shooter---I DO question the IMMEDIATELY part though--If one of the shooters Anvil Al is referring to has picked up his/her rifle and fired 2-3 or more shots before the TO can react---It IS MY OPINION that to let them finish with the rifle (shooting safely downrange) THEN call a cease fire and take an empty rifle to the unloading table is SAFER than carrying a LOADED RIFLE WITH ROUNDS IN IT AND ONE ON THE CARRIER.

In the OP it seems that the rifle had already been shot and all that was left was the shotgun...if the call could be made before the shotgun was FIRED then it should be made--it is relatively easy to unload two live rounds from a shotgun compared to several rounds from a rifle.

I think someone quoted PWB as "is timely and safe to do so" My opinion this would not be the case in the middle of a rifle string.