Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Shooter misses holster with shot-empty pistol. There it lays on the ground just a shinin'. Shooter has only the shotgun left to shoot. What is supposed to happen next? What if the other pistol and/or rifle were yet to be fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Not enough info, are we to assume that he let go and the pistol hit the ground? If so, the 'STOP' command should be given immediately. Edit to add, the TO, or someone at their direction should retrieve the pistol, not the shooter. SDQ, muzzles up and go to the unloading table. Tough break cowboy. Reset the stage, next shooter please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 Sorry Griz I edited to add the info as you were posting. Stop or cease fire is your answer still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 TO is supposed to pick up the weapon, carry it to table. Clear the gun, turn it over to the shooter, inform scorekeeper of SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Lone Dog, yes, my answer stands. There is a gun on the ground, continuing to run the shooter thru the stage, perhaps involving movement over or around the gun on the ground is not wise and potentially not safe IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (from the loading table to the unloading table) results in the shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 I do not need any more replys saying a dropped unloaded gun is a SDQ. I know that, we all know that. What I am asking is what is supposed to happen as soon as the gun hits the ground. Day before yesterday shooter dropped second pistol. TO told shooter to go ahead and load and shoot the shotgun, the only gun left to be fired. TO then picks up pistol and carries it to ULT. I opined to the TO the stage was over as soon as the pistol hit the dirt and the command "stop" or "cease fire" was what should have happened instead of what did happen. TO then told me it was at TO's discretion whether to end the stage and stop the shooter or to allow the shooter to go ahead and finish the stage. I advised that I thought he was wrong and we would have to check on it. Well I perused the rule book and of course the only thing I could find was what we all know: dropped empty gun is SDQ. I could find nothing about whether the TO did indeed have the discretion to allow the shooter to finish the stage or not. Nothing. So is me and Grizz right or was the TO right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I would say Stop the shooter right then right there. He is done for the stage. Shooter might be a little rattled from the dropped gun. No need to let them go on. Stop them and do as Goody posted. Let them gather there self for the next stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 It would seem that as soon as the gun hit the ground, and the shooter is disqualified from that stage, there is no point in finishing it. Go directly to unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Stop the shooter, he's done. No need to finish stage. TO doesn't need to carry the gun to the ULT. Get a spotter to do it and "next shooter". Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 If the Shooter ain't rattled let him finish the stage. Gives the TO, posse leader and the spotters time to make a determination If the Shooter is rattled, STOP! Direct Shooter to the unloading table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Deleted Male moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The stage has been DQ'd once the gun hits the ground. Stop the shooter. I think if it was determined that there was a prop failure (not in this case), that the shooter would be given a reshoot. What sez you? Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 If the Shooter ain't rattled let him finish the stage. Then the TO, posse leader and the spotters can determine what caused the dropped pistol If the Shooter is rattled, STOP! Direct Shooter to the unloading table Disagree with that. How are you going to know in that INSTANT if the shooter is rattled or how bad. There is NO need to let the shooter finish the stage at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The stage has been DQ'd once the gun hits the ground. Stop the shooter. I think if it was determined that there was a prop failure (not in this case), that the shooter would be given a reshoot. What sez you? Phantom +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 LD, I'm gonna take just a little offense at your post # 7. My answer as well as some others, were typed before you modified your OP. Here is your post, with the original in red. "Shooter misses holster with shot-empty pistol. There it lays on the ground just a shinin'. Shooter has only the shotgun left to shoot. What is supposed to happen next? What if the other pistol and/or rifle were yet to be fired?" As you can see, it is somewhat different in it's present form. However, to answer your COMPLETE question, as soon as the gun is dropped, the stage is over. Anytime there is a SDQ call in the middle of a stage, stop the shooter as soon as it is safe, tell him/her to go to the unloading table until things can be determined. Same with a MDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Disagree with that. How are you going to know in that INSTANT if the shooter is rattled or how bad. .... By observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 by not stopping the shooter the TO just caused the shooter to use 4 shotgun shells for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 by not stopping the shooter the TO just caused the shooter to use 4 shotgun shells for nothing! You got a point there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Gun is on the ground. TO is tasked with retrieving said gun, taking his or her attention away from the shooter. If the shooter continues how is the TO watching them and the current guns? Sure, TO could say 'hang on let me grab yer pistol then you can shoot the shotgun' but why? A gun on the ground is a gun on the ground, it should cause a stop to the stage, loaded or not. Way too many variable not to, such as TO attention, direction of the muzzle of the gun, etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 By observation. Instantaneous observation and evaluation...and response. Ok... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Doesn't matter if shooter is shaken or not. Stop them immediately and send them to the unloading table. They are done with that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Immediately stop shooter with Cease Fire command. Have shooter step away from the dropped gun so it can safely be retrieved. Sending them to the unloading table with their other firearms is fine. TO or an assigned spotter may retrieve the gun. It is examined by that person at the unloading table to verify it is unloaded - a SDQ is declared upon finding it unloaded. If the gun is by chance still holding a live round in cylinder, it would be a Match DQ declaration. By stopping shooter immediately, you prevent a shooter from stepping on gun, in front of gun, when it MIGHT still be loaded. You should NOT let shooter continue the stage after a serious (SDQ, MDQ) safety situation has been observed - nothing good and lots bad can come from letting them continue. If the safety penalty is somehow not deserved, then a reshoot will be how the situation is resolved (thus, you never need to have the shooter "just continue, for the record"). There is no need to "observe the emotional state of the shooter" to decide what to do. The penalty has been earned. Just decide which of the two situations you have. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 by not stopping the shooter the TO just caused the shooter to use 4 shotgun shells for nothing! I'd shoot 'em anyway if you let me. But then, I'm there to shoot, the rest can take care of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 As is the answer much of the time - it depends. Yes, we are all aware the penalty for dropped empty pistol is a SDQ. And the shooters stage FOR A RECORDED TIME is over right then. But as TO... What am I going to do? It depends. A shooter might be unaware of the drop and continue on like nothing has happened. If this shooter gets their rifle up and functioning or shotgun up and running - I will likely let them complete their stage. Or at least that next firearm. I feel it is safer to let them complete their gun functions than yelling commands to stop them on a NON injurious safety related issue, with a loaded gun in hands. (and yes, I know it is a safety penalty - but an empty pistol lying in the dirt is not dangerous) And the OP stated EMPTY pistol - my answers hinge on that knowledge. A loaded pistol is another animal altogether. A shooter that is aware of the dropped pistol - I will stop them immediately. It just depends on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 If the Shooter ain't rattled let him finish the stage. Gives the TO, posse leader and the spotters time to make a determination If the Shooter is rattled, STOP! Direct Shooter to the unloading table Just out of curiosity, what determination are they making? And how/why are they doing this while the shooter is still shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Shadow Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 A dropped gun is a MAJOR Safety Infraction. ROI page 21 item #4 under RANGE OPERATIONS SUMMARY. Resulting in a minimum of Stage disqualification. The only latitude to continue that a TO might have is, as Creeker mentioned, how long it might take to SAFELY stop the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 There aren't any determinations to be made. The shooter dropped the pistol. The shooter's stage is OVER right there. TO picks up the pistol and heads to the unloading table to clear it and may or may not offer condolences. Any and ALL remaining firearms are taken to the unloading table to be cleared. Any thought the shooter is allowed to finish the stage out of kindness is pure Baloney. Coffinmaker Remember to read the rules as written. Not how you think they should read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 But...what if Bigfoot is seen by the TO right at the same time...and then...a unicorn trots by? And of course, there's the distinct possibility that Gremlins were seen in the neighborhood and it coulda...been them!!!! I don't know folks...we must consider all the possibilities here...BOD ya know... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 As is the answer much of the time - it depends. Yes, we are all aware the penalty for dropped empty pistol is a SDQ. And the shooters stage FOR A RECORDED TIME is over right then. But as TO... What am I going to do? It depends. A shooter might be unaware of the drop and continue on like nothing has happened. If this shooter gets their rifle up and functioning or shotgun up and running - I will likely let them complete their stage. Or at least that next firearm. I feel it is safer to let them complete their gun functions than yelling commands to stop them on a NON injurious safety related issue, with a loaded gun in hands. (and yes, I know it is a safety penalty - but an empty pistol lying in the dirt is not dangerous) And the OP stated EMPTY pistol - my answers hinge on that knowledge. A loaded pistol is another animal altogether. A shooter that is aware of the dropped pistol - I will stop them immediately. It just depends on the situation. Now I do agree with that. If they don't know it. And already have the next gun up and running. Say. Rifle OR even the other pistol. I would let them finish that string. Just because I feel it would be safer to stop them after the string than in the middle of it. And some of these fast shooters can have the next gun up and running pretty darn fast. But if they know it dropped. I am stopping them right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 By observation. And you can do that on the spot. In a instant. You may not know if they are rattled or not. Stop them as soon as safe to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 Goody, ye are absolutely right and I will take my upbraiding on post 7. I did not intend it to sound so harsh, even tho I know ye are not that thin-skinned. Har! Please overlook the perceived haughty tone. I was in a hurry to get the info on the thread. At the time I edited the op maybeso only ye and Grizz had even read it. As soon as I read Grizz' post 2 I was whuppin' and spurrin' to get the story detailed and fleshed out. Now it seems that most of us are on the same page that the shooter should be stopped as soon as the gun hits the ground. That is most of the time. Not all circumstances are the same and I am with what Creeker said. An unloaded shot empty gun on the ground is no safety threat and an fast shooter who is unknowing of the fact he dropped the gun should probably be allowed to go ahead and shoot any gun that he has already set sail with. No real pressing need to stop them in the middle of a string. Is there? I think not. So the answer is it depends on circumstances. There is no rule I can find in the book. All it says is that it is a SDQ. It is mute on what is to happen immediately after the gun hits the ground. I asked the TO why he thought it was TO's discretion to stop the stage at once or let the shooter finish. He replied that he observed it a big match once. A well known shooter was allowed to finish by a very experienced TO who opined that it was TO's discretion. In the absence of a rule I guess it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I don't understand the logic of letting the shooter continue. A SQD has occurred. No reason to continue. I also do not understand a TO's unwillingness to stop a shooter. What happens when a shooter fires a squib? I bet the TO yells CEASE FIRE immediately. Different situation, I understand, yet it isn't. There is absolutely no reason for the shooter to continue. A safety violation has occurred and a penalty is applied. "I let him continue because I saw it at a big match one time." I know what my Dad would respond to that. Heard it a hundred times. "If your buddies jumped off a cliff would you do the same, just because they did?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 RO II, under "Incidents". "The Range Officers shall never be tentative with a safety call. If a safety command given by a Range Officer is errant ... the shooter will automatically be given a re-shoot". A gun was dropped. Stop command should be given. Next shooter. Barry Sloe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 As long as the shooter SAFELY negotiated the stage then there is no problem. The TO is in charge and can make his call when he/she decides to make the call. Never try and second guess what is going on in someone's mind. Remember that the TO not only has to watch what is happening but also what might happen next. That's a damn neat trick right there! The really good TOs make it look easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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