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Tex and the "dance"


Bad Hand

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and it is not even close to being winter yet

must be the heat. I know it is keeping me in more so here I is.

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I'm so glad I never read the Chronicle.

 

And even if I did read it, I would not bother to see what Tex was complaining about every month.

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You can not find it. Because there is not one about the finger on or in the trigger guard.

That is made up by some. And in 8-9 years of SASS. And shooting at many clubs in many States. I have never

heard of it even being a club rule anywhere I have been.

I will admit. I draw my SASS pistols with my finger on the trigger.

I also draw my defense guns different than I do my SASS guns.

Different guns and different holsters altogether.

At my club the finger is off of the trigger until the gun is drawn and engaging a target. Cowboy shooters get a little relief but not much.

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At my club the finger is off of the trigger until the gun is drawn and engaging a target. Cowboy shooters get a little relief but not much.

I'd love to see how you consistently apply this rule...

 

Phantom

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I'd love to see how you consistently apply this rule...

 

Phantom

subjective call

finger close

finger on the side

finger half way in

finger all the way in

finger all the way in with no pressure

finger all the say in with some pressure

etc

 

pistol is suposed to be 45 degrees before cocking

perhaps that includes finger some how

 

but not sure

 

for crying out loud cas shooters

 

other shooting venues are watching us

it is no wonder we do not make the top shooting shows and 32 thousand cable shows these days

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If I'm shooting with two hands on the gun, I'm slip hammering. As soon as I get a grip on the gun I'm finding the trigger. I only pull back the hammer as I aquire the first target. You might catch it if you "review the tape". I know others who are much faster than I am, (most everybody) and someone would have to really be quick with their eyes to single any of them out.

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If you carefully observe every draw and re-holster made by ANY cross draw user at the LT, line and ULT thoughout the course of the match sooner or later they will "impinge" on the limits if only a little. And I do not care who they are, how long they have been at this, or how certain in their own minds that they don't. They will. It can be avoided but requires way too much concentration especially when the mind is on other things like time and hits and misses. It happens. We are all human.

Painting with a pretty broad brush there LD, though I also notice that you have closed down discussion by implying that it is all in "their own minds that they don't". Personally I have seen plenty of shooters at the LD and ULT of both persuasions that break the 170, with many more being straight drop holster users. I gently remind them the first time that I really don't appreciate guns being pointed at me and that seems to wake them up some. Many of these folks are relatively new, and if they have been in sass a while, they tell me nobody had ever mentioned it to them before. I see it as a training/learning opportunity as well as fulfilling my responsibility as a safety officer.

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subjective call

finger close

finger on the side

finger half way in

finger all the way in

finger all the way in with no pressure

finger all the say in with some pressure

etc

 

pistol is suposed to be 45 degrees before cocking

perhaps that includes finger some how

 

but not sure

 

for crying out loud cas shooters

 

other shooting venues are watching us

it is no wonder we do not make the top shooting shows and 32 thousand cable shows these days

Not sure why finger placement is such a big issue with you on a single action. Last I checked, if it wasn't cocked, I could pull the trigger all day and it wouldn't fire. As far as other disipiines haveing an issue, I would take to opportunity to rid themselves of their ignorance about the guns we use. Pulling the trigger of a uncocked single action revolver or pistol is not the safety issue that doing the same thing thing would be on glock or double action pistol of any sort.

 

From a muscle memory perspective, especially for those with many different firearms, I agree that it is a poor way to go about it, but in an of itself, it is not dangerous.

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Painting with a pretty broad brush there LD, though I also notice that you have closed down discussion by implying that it is all in "their own minds that they don't". Personally I have seen plenty of shooters at the LD and ULT of both persuasions that break the 170, with many more being straight drop holster users. I gently remind them the first time that I really don't appreciate guns being pointed at me and that seems to wake them up some. Many of these folks are relatively new, and if they have been in sass a while, they tell me nobody had ever mentioned it to them before. I see it as a training/learning opportunity as well as fulfilling my responsibility as a safety officer.

Bones Z,

I suppose we, certainly including myself, have strayed some from OP, but still interesting and thinking material. I would not argue with you or Lone Dog as to your observations and comments. And, it is as LD put it, it happens, we are human. If you are at matches enough you will see things that in your own mind was a tad borderline safety violation of some sort. I often think that, then just think maybe I did not see what I think I saw, BOD goes to violator, and go about my "rat killing". I am sure I have seen such instances as you and LD mention, but the one I see most is from those who carry their long guns by barrel or foreend, and I will pick on the real tall folks here as they are the ones I perhaps notice the most. It is with this method of carry going to UNL table or to/from cart that I most often "see the muzzle". Seems these same shooters are quit safe from LD to line, but lax afterwards. It does not bother me that much, I'm easy, and am just not that disturbed by it, but yet that little mental light goes off that I saw muzzle. I know, stage over, guns empty so.... (Anyone else have that little light go off on this one?) As a TO one might often here me say "watch muzzle" at different times than just end of stage, just a reminder.

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Bones Z,

I suppose we, certainly including myself, have strayed some from OP, but still interesting and thinking material. I would not argue with you or Lone Dog as to your observations and comments. And, it is as LD put it, it happens, we are human. If you are at matches enough you will see things that in your own mind was a tad borderline safety violation of some sort. I often think that, then just think maybe I did not see what I think I saw, BOD goes to violator, and go about my "rat killing". I am sure I have seen such instances as you and LD mention, but the one I see most is from those who carry their long guns by barrel or foreend, and I will pick on the real tall folks here as they are the ones I perhaps notice the most. It is with this method of carry going to UNL table or to/from cart that I most often "see the muzzle". Seems these same shooters are quit safe from LD to line, but lax afterwards. It does not bother me that much, I'm easy, and am just not that disturbed by it, but yet that little mental light goes off that I saw muzzle. I know, stage over, guns empty so.... (Anyone else have that little light go off on this one?) As a TO one might often here me say "watch muzzle" at different times than just end of stage, just a reminder.

Heyya Billy!

 

But then...you see the long guns put into a cart...with the muzzles point right at the owners head...then he/she tilts the cart to push it...and everyone see the muzzle...no good way around that.

 

At least with someone carrying their LG's via the barrel they ain't gunna have their finger on the trigger.

 

;)

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I, on the other hand, will defend my pard Tex. There are shooters out there that call themselves x-draw users, when in fact, they're just wearing a reverse strong-side holster on the weak side and call it a x-draw. THEY do need to do something to avoid drawing (muzzle clearing leather) outside of the 170º, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you wear a x-draw holster that sits with that grip in front of your buckle, stand with your hips parallel to the firing line, and your frontside ain't concave, you too, must move somewhat to keep that draw (muzzle clearing leather) inside the 170º. And there are positions of holster gear folks use from one extreme to the other.

 

The degree to which you must move to keep that muzzle inside the 170º differs with the combination of the shooter's STANCE, build and leather gear. Some shooters use both leather gear and position of said gear in a "Weaver" stance, and their muzzle is inside the 170º as it sits in the holster... others can assume the same stance and identical leather gear, but... due to the rotundness of their frontside, they have to swivel or otherwise get the muzzle inside the 170º when the muzzle clears leather.

 

To admit otherwise is to allow folks to break the rules. PERIOD. Getting all "het up" over Tex's comments indicates that you either are in violation and want to deflect some fingerpointin', or you're exceedingly thin-skinned and take anything said by anyone personally and therefor subject to your self-defensive ire. I've probably shot with Tex longer than anyone posting here (except Big Jake), and I've worn the same x-draw rig for 24 years... Tex ain't ever called me for breaking the 170º. For simple fact that, I don't. And he's never demanded that I "dance" for 'im! (I might question his inclinations if he did....) I have however, seen him call someone that was wearing a rig that put the gun back around the pard's hip, and then drew without doin' the dance! And from where that pard wore the off-side holster, he needed to do a very aggressive turn on the dance floor to get that muzzle inside the 170º when the muzzle cleared leather.

 

As RO/TOs it's something that we need to watch for, be cognizant of; and, with the variety of "X-Draw" rigs, in conjunction with shooting stances and holster positions, knowing where that muzzle is pointed as it clears leather, it can be a chore. And it may even be something that some shooters themselves are not aware of.

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Heyya Billy!

 

But then...you see the long guns put into a cart...with the muzzles point right at the owners head...then he/she tilts the cart to push it...and everyone see the muzzle...no good way around that.

 

At least with someone carrying their LG's via the barrel they ain't gunna have their finger on the trigger.

 

;)

 

Good point....sometimes when I am rolling my cart around and I look dwon and see the barrel muzzle I think duh, but then as you say not much way around it. Some things are completely fixable. Now finger on trigger is fixable, but I don't really plan to alter my style to much.

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Next month he should talk about straight draw users "Missing" their holsters when reholstering...that would be a good discussion.

 

Phantom

Actually some talk of that at EOT TG meeting, and the muzzle of cross draw shooter's revolver as it is going to holster. Straight or cross draw muzzle angle needs to be watched before the slide into holster (halo, if you will....I know, a word used but not in SASS handbook that I know of).
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Bones Z,

............I often think that, then just think maybe I did not see what I think I saw, BOD goes to violator, and go about my "rat killing". .............

 

Ding... ;)

 

 

Yes rules are rules yes. If it's extremely blatant- yes call it. If you see someone coming to the line with the xdraw on the side of their hip speak up. If you just don't like xdraw for some weird reason be careful what can of worms you open up.

 

Wait a minute- I see towns folk with pitchforks coming shouting something about why an empty case on a rifle carrier with an open lever is so much more dangerous than hammer down on a spent pistol round.... <_<

 

We seem to want safety but don't look at it with real world common sense........

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Ding... ;)

 

 

Yes rules are rules yes. If it's extremely blatant- yes call it. If you see someone coming to the line with the xdraw on the side of their hip speak up. If you just don't like xdraw for some weird reason be careful what can of worms you open up.

 

Wait a minute- I see towns folk with pitchforks coming shouting something about why an empty case on a rifle carrier with an open lever is so much more dangerous than hammer down on a spent pistol round.... <_<

 

We seem to want safety but don't look at it with real world common sense........

Careful now. Common sense is a very rare thing these days :)

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I, on the other hand, will defend my pard Tex. There are shooters out there that call themselves x-draw users, when in fact, they're just wearing a reverse strong-side holster on the weak side and call it a x-draw. THEY do need to do something to avoid drawing (muzzle clearing leather) outside of the 170º, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

You may want to re read page 19 of the RO1 manual.

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DANG!! Somethin's stinkin' up the place again!!! :rolleyes::angry:

 

 

Somebody dig a hole!! Maybe then this corpse won't keep comin' up!! :o:rolleyes:

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Does anyone have any statistics on how many accidental discharges or 170 infractions are caused every year by cross draw shooters?

Just a point of reference, the no penalty rule only applies to STRAIGHT DROP HOLSTERS, not forward cant or John Wayne holsters as well as cross draw holsters.

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Does anyone have any statistics on how many accidental discharges or 170 infractions are caused every year by cross draw shooters?

Just a point of reference, the no penalty rule only applies to STRAIGHT DROP HOLSTERS, not forward cant or John Wayne holsters as well as cross draw holsters.

Now explain exactly...in your own words, what the "No penalty rule" is.

 

Thanks.

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Not the way I read the rule. As I remember it there is a simple statement that allowance is to be made for returning pistols to straight drop holsters. It would almost seem that any holster that cants the muzzle to the rear, Duke Style or WBH reverse draw (with rearward cant) actually would not be drawn or re-holstered within the rules very easily. These would be similar to a canted cross-draw that is worn all the way around on the peak of the hip bone.

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