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What in the world 44-40 bullets recessing


Fargo Bill, SASS #4942

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44-40 going through Uberti '73 with first one firing okay, second stovepiping and third having a recessed bullet. All have been checked for tight seating and run through factory crimp twice. One never knows when it will occur, but it has and does. Could it be cartridge length or timing?

 

 

 

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Sounds like he is using the Lee die already. I prefer a real roll crimp. What diameter bullets are you using, and what diameter expander? Bullets should be VERY difficult to shove back in to a case. Stove piping to me is an expended case sticking in the ejection port, and that would be an extraction problem. Don't see how timing or cartridge length could affect that. Might help us out if you told us if the gun is stock or not, and if not then what has been changed.

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I use RCBS Cowboy dies with no problem. Originally with .427 Dia Bullets now with .430's. I changed the expander to a .430.

I don't use a Lee FCD and have never had a problem in my Chaparral's Smokewagons nor my Uberti/Win 73. I use Starline brass with my APP loads and Win brass with my Trailboss with no adjustment to the dies.

To adjust the seating die I set it high and adjust bullet seating depth till it is correct. then back off seating stem and adjust die to obtain the crimp. Raise the ram on a loaded round and adjust seater back down till it stops on bullet and lock die and seater.

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Is your brass mixed or all different manufacturerer's? I ran into a 45 Colt of all different lengths and it played hob on my crimps.

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Howdy

 

It is your ammo slamming backwards in the magazine every time you work the rifle. Some folks think recoil does this, but that is incorrect. Recoil would tend to make bullets jump forward, not backwards. What happens is every time you work the lever, a round is stripped out of the magazine. Then the magazine spring slams the entire column of ammo backwards. The whole column moves backwards with a lot of force. When the entire column comes to an abrupt stop, the heavy bullets try to keep moving backwards. The more times the column moves, the more times force is exerted on the entire column. So after working the lever a few times, you start getting bullets that set back into the case.

 

The culprit is the thin brass at the neck of the 44-40 round. The brass is only about .007 thick, vs about .012 thick for 45 Colt. The thin brass is not rigid enough to form a good mechanical grip on the bullet. Not as good a grip as thicker brass. It gives way easily and the crimp looses its grip on the bullet. The thicker brass of cartridges like 45 Colt will be more rigid because it is thicker. So the more rigid brass of 45 Colt will prevent this from happening.

 

I like to keep dummy 44-40 rounds around to run through my 44-40 rifles (five of them). If I load a few dummy rounds into a magazine and run them through the magazine a few times, the bullets will start setting back. It is simply because the thin brass is not rigid enough to hold onto the bullets. This is even if I crimp the rounds with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

 

One way to prevent this from happening is to load with Black Powder or a substitute, which is the way I almost always load 44-40. With a solid plug of slightly compressed FFg behind the bullet, it does not set back. Never. It ain't the crimp holding the bullet, it is the solid plug of FFg not allowing the bullet to set back.

 

With Smokeless, it is a whole nother kettle of fish, because there is empty space in the cartridge. As a matter of fact, it could even be dangerous, because if your bullets set back, the case volume is reduced, which will raise pressure when the round is fired. No telling how much the pressure is raised.

 

As I said, I usually load 44-40 with the Lee Factory Crimp Die and Black Powder. I know it is the powder preventing the bullets from setting back because with the same die settings with dummy rounds, the bullets will set back.

 

Same problem no matter if I use Winchester brass or Starline. Winchester tends to run about .001 thinner than Starline, about .007 for Winchester, about .008 for Starline. .001 is not enough to give the brass enough rigidity to hold the bullet in place against the force momentum when the ammo column slams to a halt.

 

Dunno what the factories do to keep bullets from setting back, they must have special crimping equipment that really holds the bullet in place. Dunno because I have not bought any factory 44-40 in many years.

 

I have never used the Redding die, but I have heard a lot of folks swear by them. If I wuz you, and I was loading 44-40 with Smokeless, I would look into the Redding die. It might just make the crimp a little bit stiffer and give you a bit more holding power to keep the bullets in place.

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Redding profile crimp die. Having measured the crimp profile it puts on loads, and comparing to an RCBS Cowboy die set and a Lee factory crimp die, the Redding snugs the case neck (below the crimp at the mouth) about 0.002" tighter than the Lee, and the Lee is slightly snugger in the neck than is the RCBS crimp die (which hardly touches the neck). There is a reason several of us pards like that Redding die for 44-40.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Not to disagree with my .44 WCF brethren too much, while all the various crimping solutions will work I suggest they may not be necessary. A properly adjusted crimp die with good brass will yield a smokeless round that will not telescope. The bullet needs to have a crimp groove though. All the brass smooshing in the world will not help a .44 WCF round with a bullet without a crimp groove.

 

The photo below shows a loaded smokeless round and the RCBS cast bullet used.

 

http--,,--//P1010882_zps26d78282.jpg

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Get the Redding Profile crimp die. Nothing comes close to the efficiency of this die..

 

I use the Redding Profile crimp die on all straight sided case ammo, as well as the 38-55, 38-40, and 44-40, to include the 32 H&R Mag, 38/357, 44 Spl. & Mag, and 45 LC.

 

Some think the Lee FCD does the same thing. WRONG! There's a huge difference in the final crimp of the Redding die. The Redding die apply's the strongest, tightest, and most concentric crimp of any die on the planet.

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Redding dies solved any and all problems I ever had with reloading the 44-40....get one soon and kiss your problems good bye!

 

Bugler

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