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Whats the calll


irish ike, SASS #43615

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At Sundays shoot. Two windows with a door in the center. At the left window knock down 2 shotgun targets left to right. Move to right window knock down 2 shotgun targets right to left. Move to doorway and shoot rifle targets in a Lawrence Welk 1-2-3-4. Do the same with pistols on pistol targets.

 

Shooter shoots the left shotgun fine. Moves and shoots the right shotgun left to right, so a "P". Moves to door, shoots rifle correctly. Pulls pistol and shoots 1-2-2, second pistol shoots 2-3. Hits the targets but wrong order.

 

A brief discussion about a shooter can't earn 2 "P's" on one stage. Another about the shooter put the wrong number of pistol rounds on targets 3 and 4 so a miss............because he didn't put 4 rounds on the 4th pistol target.

 

Shooter was given a "P" and 1 miss.

 

Let the fun begin.

Ike

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Yep. The shooter earned the P with the shotgun. Can't get another P not matter what he does. And shooting the pistol targets, he did not earn any misses because all his shots connected with pistol targets, even if not in the right order.

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P, No miss, as said hit the right kind of target just wrong order. Lets say it had been a dump stage with 8 shots on one target and one on the other, if he got them reversed would you give him 7 misses and a p, No just the P.

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really? and they came up with a miss??????

 

pbcc

 

nobody taken RO classes there? or read any of the books?

 

if you're gonna knock the hypos then at least come up with something good....just sayun.......

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LOL Al, A miss is a miss is a miss................A miss can't cause a "P" and a "P" can't cause a miss.....From the SHB page 18........

 

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where the competitor engages the stage in a manner
other than the way it is supposed to be shot. Procedurals are scored as ten second additions to the competitor’s raw time for the stage, no more than one per stage.
Mink...........Not shouting, just the way it copied and pasted ?
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Not knocking hypotheticals. We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target. Targets were 1 foot between edges. Part of the thinking was the shooter made two mistakes....so he gets off on one of them because of the no 2 P rule. And yes we read the rules and the RO pocket card, and we all were trying to look at each incident as separate events in the stage.

 

Thats why the question is being asked. We are not a bunch of dumb asses. Just trying to learn as we go with every non-typical event.

 

I also couldn't find where it said you can't earn two "P's" in one stage.

 

You know we had a discussion this week about the wire. Civility should be the rule not the exception here. A simple question trying to get clarification. There are many, many errors in rules applications on the wire from arm chair experts. Forgive me for asking the question.

 

Ike

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LOL Al, A miss is a miss is a miss................A miss can't cause a "P" and a "P" can't cause a miss.....From the SHB page 18........

 

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where the competitor engages the stage in a manner
other than the way it is supposed to be shot. Procedurals are scored as ten second additions to the competitor’s raw time for the stage, no more than one per stage.
Mink...........Not shouting, just the way it copied and pasted ?

 

 

They got the P down.

 

Someone needs to explain to them what a miss is. Or in this case. What a miss is not.

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Not knocking hypotheticals. We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target. Targets were 1 foot between edges. Part of the thinking was the shooter made two mistakes....so he gets off on one of them because of the no 2 P rule. And yes we read the rules and the RO pocket card, and we all were trying to look at each incident as separate events in the stage.

 

Thats why the question is being asked. We are not a bunch of dumb asses. Just trying to learn as we go with every non-typical event.

 

I also couldn't find where it said you can't earn two "P's" in one stage.

 

You know we had a discussion this week about the wire. Civility should be the rule not the exception here. A simple question trying to get clarification. There are many, many errors in rules applications on the wire from arm chair experts. Forgive me for asking the question.

 

Ike

 

 

:huh: Never mind. :blink:

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Not knocking hypotheticals. We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target. Targets were 1 foot between edges. Part of the thinking was the shooter made two mistakes....so he gets off on one of them because of the no 2 P rule. And yes we read the rules and the RO pocket card, and we all were trying to look at each incident as separate events in the stage.

 

Thats why the question is being asked. We are not a bunch of dumb asses. Just trying to learn as we go with every non-typical event.

 

I also couldn't find where it said you can't earn two "P's" in one stage.

 

You know we had a discussion this week about the wire. Civility should be the rule not the exception here. A simple question trying to get clarification. There are many, many errors in rules applications on the wire from arm chair experts. Forgive me for asking the question.

 

Ike

 

 

Bottom of the pocket RO card, page 28 for the RO 1 manual.

 

Procedural: Unintentional errors caused by confusion or mistakes. If unable to comply with stage instructions due to physical limitations or handicap, the RO may make allowances for the shooter to complete the stage w/o penalty, adhering as closely as possible to the spirit of the game. 10 seconds; no more than one procedural penalty may be assessed per stage

 

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At Sundays shoot. Two windows with a door in the center. At the left window knock down 2 shotgun targets left to right. Move to right window knock down 2 shotgun targets right to left. Move to doorway and shoot rifle targets in a Lawrence Welk 1-2-3-4. Do the same with pistols on pistol targets.

 

Shooter shoots the left shotgun fine. Moves and shoots the right shotgun left to right, so a "P". Moves to door, shoots rifle correctly. Pulls pistol and shoots 1-2-2, second pistol shoots 2-3. Hits the targets but wrong order.

 

A brief discussion about a shooter can't earn 2 "P's" on one stage. Another about the shooter put the wrong number of pistol rounds on targets 3 and 4 so a miss............because he didn't put 4 rounds on the 4th pistol target.

 

Shooter was given a "P" and 1 miss.

 

Let the fun begin.

Ike

I'm curious Ike....did anyone pull out the rule books? Anytime there has to be a discussion and folks are not sure then I like to refer to the rule book. That way the shooter can see in black and white why they are earning the penalty.

 

When I was responsible for the state match I printed up several complete rule books.....SHB, RO1, RO2.......which were used to make the calls if there was a question. Most of the time the shooters just trusted us but showing them in print why the call was made helped alleviate hard feelings.

 

Nowadays with PDF's and smartphones a digital copy can usually be accessed within moments and they are searchable.

 

In this instance our friend Miss Flow chart would have made it easier for you to make the correct call of "P" only.

 

Stan

 

PS. I shoot with a well versed group of cowboys when it comes to the rules so it's usually a pretty weird situation when we have to crack open the book.....but it does happen.....and anyone that says they can make every call without opening the book would be full of bull.

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If you get confused doing the evaulation, go to the Miss Flow Chart.

 

A miss NEVER comes from putting a hit on the wrong target number, when the correct type was hit. Except when you have the targets "too close" to get a clean miss,

 

Shooter did not MISS on any shot he fired on pistol targets. No miss.

 

All you can give him is the P, one P, and nothing but the P.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Not knocking hypotheticals. We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target. Targets were 1 foot between edges. Part of the thinking was the shooter made two mistakes....so he gets off on one of them because of the no 2 P rule. And yes we read the rules and the RO pocket card, and we all were trying to look at each incident as separate events in the stage.

 

Thats why the question is being asked. We are not a bunch of dumb asses. Just trying to learn as we go with every non-typical event.

 

I also couldn't find where it said you can't earn two "P's" in one stage.

 

Irish Ike

 

 

 

 

You know we had a discussion this week about the wire. Civility should be the rule not the exception here. A simple question trying to get clarification. There are many, many errors in rules applications on the wire from arm chair experts. Forgive me for asking the question.

 

Ike

You are entitled to a civil answer. Otherwise, we are discouraging questions. What we should be doing is encouraging shooters to consult the handbooks. The answer is in them. See, e.g. p. 18 of the Shooters Handbook, indicating that no more than one procedural may be assessed per stage.

 

CH

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This was a monthly match and we have been trying to make sure everyone knows and shoots by the SASS rules. Many of us go out of the area for other shoots so we want to make sure no one gets messed up because we are lax with the rules. No one had a rule book and we were trying to get done because of the heat. No big deal really.

 

I asked the question as more of an assurance that we made the wrong call. No big deal to the shooter as he said.

 

I thought it was a "P" only but......discussions happen. Thus the topic and question posed. Oh well.

 

Ike

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Another add to this. A new shooter came to the match on Sunday. As we were welcoming him he told us he had already purchased a Ruger pistol and a Henry Big Boy rifle. He said when he posted on the wire about the rifle and it being used in SASS he felt like he questioned someones parenthood. He said he was jumped on and he didn't feel like we were a friendly organization.

 

Not the best way to make a prospective shooter welcome. We told him why the comments, but shoot the thing and enjoy. And we recommended he try some shotguns before going out and buying one.

 

All I'm saying a dumb question or purchase to you shouldn't be the cause of being abusive or calling the persons knowledge into question. Not the so called cowboy way that is thrown around in here.

Ike

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Sorry if I offended you.

But this really was a so called no brainer.

 

And as far as throwing out the Cowboy Way.

Have you ever been around a bunch of true Cowboys.

They are harder on there own than anybody.

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Another add to this. A new shooter came to the match on Sunday. As we were welcoming him he told us he had already purchased a Ruger pistol and a Henry Big Boy rifle. He said when he posted on the wire about the rifle and it being used in SASS he felt like he questioned someones parenthood. He said he was jumped on and he didn't feel like we were a friendly organization.

 

Not the best way to make a prospective shooter welcome. We told him why the comments, but shoot the thing and enjoy. And we recommended he try some shotguns before going out and buying one.

 

All I'm saying a dumb question or purchase to you shouldn't be the cause of being abusive or calling the persons knowledge into question. Not the so called cowboy way that is thrown around in here.

Ike

Agreed!

 

As we Moderators cannot see every post, it would help if someone who sees an abusive post would use the Report link. If we agree with you, we will take action.

 

I remember my first post on the Wire. I got BBQed for posting that we need to watch out for children picking brass as they could have blood-lead level issues.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "never be afraid to do the right thing" Mo

 

PS I've disagreed with "the best of the best" and those who are truly winners, do not hold a grudge, nor do I. We just agree to disagree.

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At Sundays shoot. Two windows with a door in the center. At the left window knock down 2 shotgun targets left to right. Move to right window knock down 2 shotgun targets right to left. Move to doorway and shoot rifle targets in a Lawrence Welk 1-2-3-4. Do the same with pistols on pistol targets.

 

Shooter shoots the left shotgun fine. Moves and shoots the right shotgun left to right, so a "P". Moves to door, shoots rifle correctly. Pulls pistol and shoots 1-2-2, second pistol shoots 2-3. Hits the targets but wrong order.

 

A brief discussion about a shooter can't earn 2 "P's" on one stage. Another about the shooter put the wrong number of pistol rounds on targets 3 and 4 so a miss............because he didn't put 4 rounds on the 4th pistol target.

 

Shooter was given a "P" and 1 miss.

 

Let the fun begin.

Ike

I miss all the fun!!

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Not knocking hypotheticals. We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target. Targets were 1 foot between edges. Part of the thinking was the shooter made two mistakes....so he gets off on one of them because of the no 2 P rule. And yes we read the rules and the RO pocket card, and we all were trying to look at each incident as separate events in the stage.

 

Thats why the question is being asked. We are not a bunch of dumb asses. Just trying to learn as we go with every non-typical event.

 

I also couldn't find where it said you can't earn two "P's" in one stage.

 

You know we had a discussion this week about the wire. Civility should be the rule not the exception here. A simple question trying to get clarification. There are many, many errors in rules applications on the wire from arm chair experts. Forgive me for asking the question.

 

Ike

Ike, I agree some people just can't be civil behind their keyboard! Don't let them git to ya.

 

 

BTW, I'd call "P" no miss also.

 

Rye ;)

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Maybe some of you know this already, but there is a SASS app for smartphones and one of the features is downloadable PDF versions of ALL the rule books. I have the pertinent books downloaded to my iPhone so I can access them anytime and anywhere. I also keep a laminated Miss Flow chart in my guncart.

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A P only, although I can see where a miss could be considered.

 

What I don't like is somebody ask a legitimate question, and gets treated like a moron for asking it. I think we have all seen situations that could be interpreted several different ways. While that may not have been the case here, a poster should not be afraid to post a question for fear of being ridiculed.

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WAIT A MINUTE!!!! It depends on WHICH version of the question you read!! In the OP it said "the shooter put the wrong number of pistol rounds on targets 3 and 4 so a miss............because he didn't put 4 rounds on the 4th pistol target." and I agree THIS would have been ONLY a P because ALL pistol rounds connected with Pistol targets, just in the wrong order and already having a P another one cannot be awarded......

HOWEVER!!

If you read the original posters post #10 IT SAYS "We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target." THAT would result in a P AND a MISS! This CLEAN MISS has nothing to do with shooting the wrong target, targets in the wrong order or any other P type activity IF it was as stated A CLEAN MISS of the target.

To make an accurate assessment of the call the ENTIRE story needs to be here! Two different scenarios were given thus there should be two different answers given.

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I'm with Fred. Ike has the same problem I have and that is communicating well and clearly with the keyboard so folks know what I mean. After reading the opening post I was confused about what had occurred. Hard to figger. Then when he chimed in again with the "clean miss" business I was even more confused.

 

Still don't know what happened.

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REALLY. It has come to this. :(

 

It's just a P.

 

All correct type targets was hit. NO MISS.

 

I can not believe this is even a question.

I agree with anvil al

geeeeeeeeeeeeeese

what is happening to CAS

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WAIT A MINUTE!!!! It depends on WHICH version of the question you read!! In the OP it said "the shooter put the wrong number of pistol rounds on targets 3 and 4 so a miss............because he didn't put 4 rounds on the 4th pistol target." and I agree THIS would have been ONLY a P because ALL pistol rounds connected with Pistol targets, just in the wrong order and already having a P another one cannot be awarded......

HOWEVER!!

If you read the original posters post #10 IT SAYS "We assessed a miss because it was a clean miss of the 4th target." THAT would result in a P AND a MISS! This CLEAN MISS has nothing to do with shooting the wrong target, targets in the wrong order or any other P type activity IF it was as stated A CLEAN MISS of the target.

To make an accurate assessment of the call the ENTIRE story needs to be here! Two different scenarios were given thus there should be two different answers given.

 

 

But he said ALL hit targets.

He may have intended to hit 4. But instead hit 3. But at any rate. It did hit a pistol target.

You can not judge a shooters intent. Just what was.

And what was, is that they THOUGHT he was aiming at 4. And instead hit 3.

Don't know why he is calling it a clean miss when he said it hit a target. And there

was room for a miss. So to me. The call saying it was a clean miss is also wrong.

As there was room for a clean miss. Don't judge his intent.

 

Sounds to me like. They thought he should get two P's. And not being able to do that.

They was trying to manufacture another penalty.

Still just a P.

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Hitting the wrong pistol target with a pistol shot is not "a clean miss".

 

It's either a P, or a P that is downgraded to "scored as a miss because the targets were too close to afford the shooter a chance for a clean miss." And in this scenario, folks who were there have said there was a foot between target edges, which is most folks' books, is called "far enough apart" to not have the special downgrade rule kick in.

 

Some pards need to get this simple fact into their heads. :lol:

 

Let's call misses by the book, not by the seat of your emotions.

 

Good luck, GJ

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While it may seem simple to those of us who have been around for a while, I can see where a newer RO/SASS shooter might get confused from time to time. If we help them understand instead of throwing rocks, the entire SASS world will have a more harmonious vibe.

 

The biggest thing to help folks understand is that the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter. You should be looking at the rules in such a way as to least penalize the shooter, not pile on. That mindset keeps this a friendly competition.

 

CR

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Al, I agree---EXCEPT hitting the wrong target is not "A CLEAN MISS". To me a clean miss is one that clean smooth MISSED the target and hit nothing else! IF INDEED all shots hit a targer right one or wrong I agree a P only but if there was a shot that sailed past a target without hitting ANYTHIONG then there is a miss to go along with the P---A simple call IF you know all the facts of what happened!

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Al, I agree---EXCEPT hitting the wrong target is not "A CLEAN MISS". To me a clean miss is one that clean smooth MISSED the target and hit nothing else! IF INDEED all shots hit a targer right one or wrong I agree a P only but if there was a shot that sailed past a target without hitting ANYTHIONG then there is a miss to go along with the P---A simple call IF you know all the facts of what happened!

 

 

Agree.

 

If it miss all pistol targets.

But I think what he is calling a clean miss. Ended up hitting target 3.

 

Don't know why he is calling it a clean miss.

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Another add to this. A new shooter came to the match on Sunday. As we were welcoming him he told us he had already purchased a Ruger pistol and a Henry Big Boy rifle. He said when he posted on the wire about the rifle and it being used in SASS he felt like he questioned someones parenthood. He said he was jumped on and he didn't feel like we were a friendly organization.

 

Not the best way to make a prospective shooter welcome. We told him why the comments, but shoot the thing and enjoy. And we recommended he try some shotguns before going out and buying one.

 

All I'm saying a dumb question or purchase to you shouldn't be the cause of being abusive or calling the persons knowledge into question. Not the so called cowboy way that is thrown around in here.

Ike

 

When I started I think the first thing I was told is that SASS is NOT the wire and the Wire is not SASS. That was good knowledge to have, take it with a grain of salt and head out to the next match where the real fun is!!

 

JEL

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