Caliber Size and Firearm Selection Help Needed!

[Lucky L]

Greetings...

 

I'm a newbie to the cowboy shooting. My son(13.5yrs and big kid) and I are starting our journey and are needing some input/feedback on caliber size and firearm selections. I have been going back/forth between 45 and 357 for revolvers. My concern on going with 357/38, which I know will be cheaper to shoot and less recoil, is that it is my understanding, I would not be able to shoot all possible events? such as classic cowboy and B western? Also if my son or I would ever be interested at some point in "quick/fast draw" shooting, is there the caliber size limit? I would rather get caliber and firearms that would allow me to be able, should I want to, shoot all/most events, without having to buy extra firearms.

 

Right now Im looking/leaning towards the Uberti El Patron or the Cimarron Evil Roys? Does anyone know if the Uberti El Patrons are really that much better than the Uberti Cattleman(matching set/pair)..or could a person save money and get the Cattlemans and have the same "work" done cheaper? I have held the Ruger Vaqueros and Ubertis and noticed there is a difference in weight and appearence. As far as the 45 caliber, I have a friend that will reload the ammo for me, till i buy a reloader myself, which is also in the near future!!

 

As far as the Rifle and shotgun, Im open. I have looked at the Uberti 1873(several versions!!) and the Cimarron. It is my understanding that Uberti/Cimarron is basically the same, just that Cimarron imports Uberti's and puts "their spin/work" on the guns, if I'm understanding that correct? What do most prefer, a sidexside shotgun or a pump '97 style? What is your input on hammerless or hammer sidexside shotgun?

 

Also might add, Im not worried about the caliber size for my son, as he is a big kid and has shot my larger handguns without issue and is actually a really good shooter!! Any input/suggestions would greatly be appreciated...Trying to do my "homework" so I can make the "best" choice possible, knowing that tastes may change and I will probably change to other firearms in years, but wanting to get a good solid start from the beginning!!

 

Thanks!!!

[Dustin Checotah]

This will not be the only time you hear this. Go to a local shoot, let people know you are interested in Cowboy shooting but not sure of what you are looking for. There will probably be people who will let you shoot different guns / calibers. Most cowboy shooters have extra ammo and would be willing to get someone else hooked. I mean started in this game. Welcome to the fire.

Dustin Checotah

[Lucky L]

Thanks...forgot to mention...I'm going to a shoot on Aug. 3rd, so plan on "picking" everyone's mind and what they prefer/like..what works for them...etc....

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Welcome to the world of Cowboy Action Shooting.

From your conversation, I assume you have been to the range and talked to a few cowboys about their guns. If you haven't, STOP and go to the next shoot you can find, and ask all the questions you can. Go again.... REPEAT SEVERAL TIMES

It makes no difference to the steel target if you hit it with a 32 caliber bullet, or 45 caliber, or anywhere in between. A hit is a hit..... You aren't trying to kill it.

Your comment about 38 caliber in B-Western is incorrect. That caliber is allowed in that category. And you can certainly shoot all EVENTS, just not every CATEGORY. The same would be true depending on what rifle you choose or what shotgun you choose, or for that matter, the type of holster you decide to wear.

As far as caliber goes try to choose the same for both rifle and pistols, it will just make your life simpler.

Fast Draw will require you to use a 45 Long Colt. For more information please go here http://www.cowboyfastdraw.com/

[Cat Brules]

First, to clarify ... there is no "quick/fast draw" competition in SASS. There are factions out there, unrelated to SASS that do that, but from what I understand, it actually is replete with a lot of specialty gear that would probably turn most cowboys off.

 

You will have to make the decision as to caliber. .38 S&W Special is the least expensive to reload and the other calibers have their followings for various reasons.

 

Guns: Model P vs. Ruger

The model P or Colt Model 1873 Single Action Army revolver and its host of reproduction clones are the favorites of many and the Ruger Vaquero and its various iterations and other Ruger models have their followers as well. They share a similar appearance, but the Ruger is a modern revolver with a design that is 100 years newer than the Colt design and internals, which came along sometime around 1847. That same Colt design is unchanged today. The Ruger design did not exist prior to about 1950 (don't know the date exactly). There are other guns, but those two designs comprise over 90% of the guns used in CAS.

 

You have a lot to learn about the guns, but making the decision as to which guns you will use is very simple. There is nothing more to it than getting your hands on Rugers and on Colts. Shoot each one about ten times and you will know.

 

Regarding the Model P guns: There are several manufacturers of "Colt Model P" design guns (clones). Uberti is the largest, I believe. Pedersoli and Pietta also make guns faithful to the Colt design.

 

Cimarron, Taylors & Company and others are distributers for Uberti and other gun manufacturers; they do not manufacture guns. When the distributor orders in quantity from Uberti (for instance), as directed, Uberti will perform some "proprietary" cosmetic work (barrel length and type, sights, finish, grips, grip frame configuration, roll stamping, etc.) on their guns that may differentiate one distributer's gun from the other, including roll-stamping the distributor's name on the gun. The guns' internals are basically the same coming from a manufacturer to their distributers, except for these cosmentics, such as I've described. They may also do fine tuning on the gun's internals to make them "race ready." The distributers will also do this tuning "in house" and add that to the price of the gun. The distributers will also give the guns that have been so worked romantic names. But, many cowboys have a favorite "cowboy gunsmith" person tune up their guns.

 

Anyway, I'm sure you'll receive plenty of advice. Sort through it and make your decisions.

 

Review the assortment of rifles and shotguns in the same manner. Handle them, shoot them, listen to what people have to say and make your own decisions.

[Lead Foot Luke]

You aren't going to get the answer you were hoping for. If you want one set of guns that will work in every category - they don't exist.

 

38/357 are legal in most smokeless categories, but switching to 45 doesn't necessarily allow you to shoot every category either. Classic Cowboy and B-Western have rifle requirements (year of design) that do not overlap, and of course different attire requirements.

 

If you think you are even a little bit competitive and want to go fast, I suggest the 38/357, but if you like to make a big bang or really want to shoot in Classic Cowboy, then you may want a larger caliber. If you want to make smoke, then there are other calibers to consider.

 

Be sure you ask lots of questions about rifles before you go buy whatever is on the shelf because that is a far more important discussion than the pistols.

[Chili Ron]

Howdy and welcome to the most fun you can have without a big honkin motor.

First the boring stuff. You do need to read read read the rule books.

That's right there are more than one.

 

Going to a match? take a camera a pen and some 3x5 cards, take notes take pix.

Ask for the match director and if and when they have a minute, ask if you can try any

of the guns. Sometimes after the match pards will let you try some.

Offer to pay for ammo. Most wont take any but times are hard and money talks and

it just might get you offered a try on other guns....

 

There are websites about getting set up, getting started.

I can tell you for certain there is NO gun that is legal for all classes.

And I really hate it when this darn machine corrects my spelling.

Whatever happened to freedom of speech??????????????????????????

And of course, don't fergit yer canteen, pard.

Best

CR

[Lucky L]

BTT...would like some more input from others!!! the more the better!!! Thanks everyone

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Go to a shoot and seek advice. Then ask to shoot as many as you can

Guns are a big investment, buy quality, buy once. Most important have fun!mo

[Lucky L]

Appreciate the advice..and for the record I am going to a shoot this weekend!! Just thought that this forum will reach even more of an audience!!(like attending a "Online Shoot"!!)..therefore getting more feedback from more!! the more input, feedback, the better!!, but to answer the common "theme" about attending a local shoot..I am doing this...even took a day off work to be able to attend to seek advice and learn!!!

 

In other words....guess what replies I would be hoping for is having others "weigh" in what they are shooting? etc...what works for them. What firearms they use and have sucess with. I realize that people buy firearms...only to realize was not a good fit and by new ones..sell old ones..etc...

[Grizzly Dave]

Howdy and welcome!

 

Classic cowboy is a category, not an event. No one set of guns will allow you to compete in all of the categories.

 

The SASS Shooters Handbook will detail what is required for each category.

 

As others have said go out to a match and chat with the folks there and see if they will let you handle their guns so that you know how your options fit and feel in your hands. Lots of good cowboys up in Oregon.

 

Hang on and enjoy the ride!

 

Grizz

[Hoss]

Like everybody said, go to a mtch or 2 and try some out. Lots of choices......Ginger or Mary anne?????

 

 

for me:

Ruger Bisley Vaqueros .357/38

Uberti 73 Winchester clone .357/38

Uberit 66 winchester clone 38 (could not resist the brass, my favorite rifle, had it short stroked, makes a diffrence!)

Stoeger deluxe 12 G SxS

Bond Derriger in 45 LC and 357/389 (barrels interchange) havn't used it yet in a match, but carry it everyday!

Marlin 1895 in 45-70 for long range/Cody Dixon (just got it!)

Gunleather by Old Slapout ( very satisfied)

Rugged Gear gun cart. Pricey, but worth it.

Cannon gunsafe to keep it all in!

 

I've been shooting a year now, and having a blast. Nicer bunch of guys and gals you will never meet. Get involved with your local club, they will take you under their wing and help you along.

Be sure to check out Grizzly Dave's Utube videos.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

It don't matter what you buy, you will end up with 2 or 3 sets anyway.Just the way it is. And you never even mentioned shooting blackpowder, that can be a set unto itself. I know, you don't like BP. Yeah,yeah, we all said that until we tried it! Personally, I don't think caliber matters as much as the gun itself. We can make 45's go plink and 38's go POW if we really want to. Go with the gun that feels right. Colts don't feel like Rugers that don't feel like Remingtons. And Marlins feels way different than Uberti/Winchester clones. Barrel length can make a big difference in rifles and pistols. I WOULD try and get the first set in all the same caliber, especially if you reload, just makes life easier

[Barry Sloe]

On the home page, SASSNET.com, open up Handbooks and Rules. Read through the Shooters Handbook. It describes the various categories and lists requirements for each.

As you read it you'll understand that you can't shoot B Western and Classic Cowboy with one set of guns.

Read the handbook and talk with the people at the shoot.

Welcome to the fun,

Barry Sloe

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

Here's my input on the issues and questions in your original post:

 

 

I have been going back/forth between 45 and 357 for revolvers. My concern on going with 357/38, which I know will be cheaper to shoot and less recoil, is that it is my understanding, I would not be able to shoot all possible events? such as classic cowboy and B western? Also if my son or I would ever be interested at some point in "quick/fast draw" shooting, is there the caliber size limit? I would rather get caliber and firearms that would allow me to be able, should I want to, shoot all/most events, without having to buy extra firearms.

 

.38/.357 is the most popular chambering, primarily because ammunition and components are less expensive than the larger calibers. It's also an easy round to reload. Some folks have issues with "blowby" with light loads in .45 Colt. Ultimately, though, get what you like. You will need .45 Colt revolvers to shoot Cowboy Fast Draw or mounted (horseback) shooting. These are matches put on my other organizations (although SASS does have a mounted shooting division). There are LOTS of SASS cowboy shooting clubs; the others are not as common so you may not be missing out on much by going with .38s. Other folks have mentioned that you need a big bore caliber if you choose the Classic Cowboy category. In my neck of the woods most shooters are in the age based category where the choices of caliber/firearms is almost unlimited.

 

Right now Im looking/leaning towards the Uberti El Patron or the Cimarron Evil Roys? Does anyone know if the Uberti El Patrons are really that much better than the Uberti Cattleman(matching set/pair)..or could a person save money and get the Cattlemans and have the same "work" done cheaper?

 

Both are Uberti guns. The Taylors & Company "Smokewagon" is another importer's so called "race ready" revolver. Keep in mind that some of the Cattleman models come with small V-notch rear sights and tapered thin front sights (I think that duplicates the early Colt models). The "factory competition" guns come with the more modern wide square sights that are much better and are probably costly to upgrade. In my opinion the "factory competition" models are better than the plain models but can still benefit from a little tuning. There may be a cowboy gunsmith in your area who could quote you the price on action work so that you can compare. Another good option is to order your guns from a cowboy gunsmith who will make them TRULY match ready before you see them. This is often cheaper than buying a new "stock" gun at retail and then paying someone to slick them up. There are several gunsmiths who do this; for example I bought my Ruger revolvers from Longhunter in Texas and my '73 rifle from Cody Conagher in West Virginia. They will ship them to your local FFL for the paperwork.

 

As far as the Rifle and shotgun, Im open. I have looked at the Uberti 1873(several versions!!) and the Cimarron. It is my understanding that Uberti/Cimarron is basically the same, just that Cimarron imports Uberti's and puts "their spin/work" on the guns, if I'm understanding that correct?

 

The Uberti '73 is the most coveted cowboy action rifle. They are expensive but still need action work. Personally I don't think there is much difference in the product you get from the various importers. Some folks have preferences on who to deal with based on customer service. Winchester has reintroduced the '73 but there is not much choice so far in caliber and features. They are fairly new so not many people have them yet.

 

What do most prefer, a sidexside shotgun or a pump '97 style?

 

My first shotgun was a '97 because I found one for sale by another shooter and liked it. Two advantages for the '97 are that it is also legal for Wild Bunch (assuming you have a local club that offers Wild Bunch Action Shooting) and that it's a great gun for ladies and youth. Many perceive that it has less felt recoil than a double. I shortened the stock on my '97 to fit my wife and recently bought a double for myself.

 

What is your input on hammerless or hammer sidexside shotgun?

 

The hammer doubles look very "cowboy" but for the average shooter they slow you down because of the need to manually cock the hammers. The hammerless (technically internal hammer) shotguns are also historically correct and are legal for every category except Classic Cowboy. My recommendation is to buy a Baikal hammerless double (cost new is about $300) and have it slicked up.

[J-BAR #18287]

One question you need to answer, and dig deep into your soul when you consider it, is--how competitive are you?

 

If it really doesn't matter to you where you wind up in the rankings, then you can shoot cheap, junky, unreliable guns and participate and enjoy the ambiance and companionship. My hat is off to those who are satisfied in this manner.

 

Most of us are competitive to some degree. I have had mechanical problems with firearms at a match and wound up absolutely dead last in the rankings, and it bugged me, so I did what I had to do to try to prevent that kind of poor performance in the future. I am not capable of being a nationally ranked shooter, and I compete mostly with myself. And when I beat myself it is frustrating. If I can go to a match and shoot my best, with no major brain malfunctions and no equipment or ammo failures, then I don't mind finishing way down in the rankings. Except that has never happened. I have yet to shoot a "perfect" match. So the next best thing is not to have to put up with equipment failures and accept the fact that I am human and going to make a fumble or a mistake in the shooting sequence and live with it.

 

Most youngsters are competitive to a degree. I think it would be frustrating to your son to have a good stage going then have a rifle jam or a shotgun fail to open and have to post a slow time on the scoresheet.

 

So after you decide what kind of cowboys you are, I urge you to buy good used equipment from another shooter. We are a fickle lot, always trading and selling guns, and there is good stuff for sale at matches and in the classifieds on the wire. But this is not a cheap sport to get into. It does require an investment in firearms and peripheral equipment. So Dont Go Cheap! Get a good tuned '73 or '66 rifle from a fellow shooter you trust. Get a good tuned side by side or '97, which ever one floats your boat, and don't put up with having to send a new gun to a gunsmith. Same with revolvers. They should feel good in your hands and if you are sharing equipment, make sure your son is EXCITED about them. If you decide you don't like the sport after all, you can sell good equipment for what you paid for it. I recommend not buying new guns, if you could not already tell.

 

And then, one day, you will decide to try blackpowder, and the heavens will open and the angels will sing...

 

But we can talk about that later.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

You may have already seen this, but it has a loot of great info to think over until you get to a match.

http://www.curtrich.com/GettingStarted01.html

[Barry Sloe]

One last thing. My brother, Hugo Bear, told me that "this sport is the fastest way to change money into smoke and noise." Of course, he told me that after I had been hooked.

 

Take your time.

 

Barry Sloe

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

Thanks...forgot to mention...I'm going to a shoot on Aug. 3rd, so plan on "picking" everyone's mind and what they prefer/like..what works for them...etc....

 

Welcome to the fire!

 

Be sure to bring some ear protection -- the Cowboys'll likely talk yer ears off!

 

No better group of pards.

[Tom Bullweed]

To repeat what others have said and add to...

Get to several matches to meet people already in the game. The idea of taking note cards and a camera is excellent. Guns are easy: you either start with guns that you are happy with or building your arsenal will be an active part of playing cowboy (I prefer this second option).

.38/.357 and .45 Colt are shot by 85% or more of cowboys/cowgirls at the matches I attend. Other chamberings are also fun.

The new Winchester 1873 (Japan-made Winchester) has very positive comments and will be my next rifle. Ubertis are good and all, but I like the idea of a Winnie even if it is made in Japan.

Take your time with building your gear collection.

Larger matches (state and regional) will have vendors of guns, leather, clothes and all other necessities.

Ask your local cowboys about anyone getting out of cowboy action, especially if their equipment is ready-to-go.

The following are not competitive guns: Henry Repeating Firearms, Marlins marked RM on the barrels, Winchester 1894s, Taurus Pump Action rifles.

[John Boy]

Lucky, the choice of firearms can be best obtained by talking with folks at matches. They will be personal choices but ask if you can handle 'their personal choices'

As for caliber, if I had to do it all over again ,,, 44-40 would be the caliber of choice

[Alabama Kid]

The best advice I was given after I shot all the guns was to determine which category I wanted to compete in. I was reminded that at most monthly matches you only shoot one category for the whole match. You don’t shoot Cowboy and then go back to shoot Classic Cowboy at the same match.

 

I suggest you get what you want based on who you want your character “for lack of a better term” to be. If you want to be a B-Western person then buy around those requirements.

I just want to shoot and compete against myself so I chose 38 due to reload cost. I have been shooting my whole life and have competed in other types of competitions. I don’t have any standing in SASS yet but I would suggest 38 to people who are new to firearms so they don’t get tired of the recoil. A lot of people want a big gun until they shoot it a couple of times. It is easier to learn with a smaller caliber than a big one. Good shooting habits and lots of practice lowers felt/noticed recoil of larger calibers. Working up a light load is also an easy option for most calibers.

 

 

The choice in manufacturer and model is up to what you can afford and what you like. If gun prices have you concerned then you really need to look at the cost to reload a particular caliber. Some calibers are close to the same price if you don’t ever have to pay for brass but the cost of brass is the most expensive aspect of reloading. I calculated the cost to reload 5,000 .38 rifle/pistol rounds. 5,000 rounds will let you shoot one 7 stage match a month and 3 practice stages a week. I assumed 21 rounds per stage for the matches and only 20 for practice. Assuming you don’t lose or lend any ammo out you will have a little more than 100 extra rounds. Then you need shotgun ammo. 500 shotgun rounds should get you through 1 match a month for 12 months and leave 60 or so rounds for practice depending on how many 6 shot stages you encounter. 500 shotgun shells in my area will cost me around 170$ and it will cost me a little less than 600$ (after shipping, tax and 500 replacement casings) to load 5,000 rounds. If I don’t do any annuals or special matches my total annual cost including memberships and match fees is right at 1,200$. If I want to shoot 45 colt or something more traditional the cost will be an additional 350 a year not including the fact that brass cost a good bit more and I don’t currently own any. If your budget allows for an extra 3-400 a year then get a traditional caliber. SASS comes after the farm and the farm isn’t making money yet.

 

Two NMVs ready to go=1450, 1873 ready to go=1650, Stoeger SxS=400. 3500 for brand new competition guns and I still have to buy leather and clothes. Since we don’t know what we like or want out of our leather, how much will that cost us. I know how much I spent and I hope it all works and looks the way I want it too because it wasn’t cheap. I took the “I can only afford it once attitude” and bought the best I could afford. Give JM leather a call when you are ready for good leather.

 

If you didn’t notice, I took the cost basis for my purchases and had to make sure I left enough to duck hunting. The big plus for me is all I needed for ammo was a set of dies and some lead. If you get bored one day find out the cost of 5,000 store bought rounds.

[JudgeBagodonuts]

Also consider if you may do wild bunch at a later time. WB dictates larger caliber pistols and rifle, and an 1897 pump shotgun.

[Cowboy Junky]

With 38's you can shoot every category BUT Classic Cowboy. If you shoot Classic Cowboy you need 40+ cal, rifle & pistols, have to shoot with the pistol in one hand and need a external hammered shotgun........plus there are clothing attire rules to boot! IOW it's a commitment IMO and you don't just stumble into it.

 

So my point is IF you MAY shoot CC then the 45's would come in handy otherwise for everything else SASS......the 38's are the ticket.

[Dick Dastardly SASS #45219]

I agree with John Boy. Were I to start over my pistols and rifles would all be 44-40. Of course, I shoot only black powder, the real stuff, Holy Black, Genuine Powder. I'd have said 38-40 but that chambering is very hard to find.

 

For scatterguns, stick with 12ga SxS till you have shot a lot. I shoot 20ga, 16ga, 12ga and 10ga. All loaded with black powder of course. Of all of them I find the 16ga to be the best balance of KD power, recoil and economy. Don't start with a 16ga though because finding components is more difficult.

 

All the best and welcome to the fire. You will make many friends here.

 

DD-MDA

[Lucky L]

Thanks again everyone for all your feedback!! really appreciate it!! But to clarify.....I'm not new to shooting firearms...just cowboy/single action!!(spent the past 24yrs carrying a Colt 45 and Glock 40!!...so use to the "larger calibers on the range and shooting exercises)....Will have my note pad and Iphone camera ready for note taking this weekend at the range!!!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

 

Good advice.

(After the music)

[Alabama Kid]

Thanks again everyone for all your feedback!! really appreciate it!! But to clarify.....I'm not new to shooting firearms...just cowboy/single action!!(spent the past 24yrs carrying a Colt 45 and Glock 40!!...so use to the "larger calibers on the range and shooting exercises)....Will have my note pad and Iphone camera ready for note taking this weekend at the range!!!

 

I wasn't trying to question your experience or knowledge. I was just mentioning an available topic/decision factor. I personally prefer the recoil of a 45 colt. The recoil helps me set my rhythm. Cost was my driving force for my choice .38 is a new caliber to me and the smallest caliber pistol I own. 45 ACP is what I use for range and carry because that is what I'm used to.

 

Hope I didn't step on your boots.

[Lucky L]

I wasn't trying to question your experience or knowledge. I was just mentioning an available topic/decision factor. I personally prefer the recoil of a 45 colt. The recoil helps me set my rhythm. Cost was my driving force for my choice .38 is a new caliber to me and the smallest caliber pistol I own. 45 ACP is what I use for range and carry because that is what I'm used to.

 

Hope I didn't step on your boots.

No...didnt step on my boots!! appreciate the feedback!! I'm not that thin skinned..lol.. Just didnt want to sound like I was a "newbie" to firearms was all!!..just new to the single action!! Looking forward to starting this new journey with my son!!...I think he will really enjoy it as well!!!....but rest assured...you did not step on my boots!!!

[Lucky L]

 

Good advice.

(After the music)

Awesome video..thanks for the link....

[Anvil Al #59168]

No...didnt step on my boots!! appreciate the feedback!! I'm not that thin skinned..lol.. Just didnt want to sound like I was a "newbie" to firearms was all!!..just new to the single action!! Looking forward to starting this new journey with my son!!...I think he will really enjoy it as well!!!....but rest assured...you did not step on my boots!!!

 

 

Another thing to think about is. What does the SON want out of it?

 

Is he looking or is he going to want to go fast like most of the youth out there that is kicking our butts?

Get what will fill the sons needs and then you make due with it until you get a set for each of you.

 

Your son may be able to handle the recoil from the .45.

But the speed game may be more to his liking. Which would lead more to the .38

 

Just throwing that out there to think about.

As most of the younger shooters like the speed.

[Lucky L]

Attended first shoot today!! Son and I had a great time!! Alot of thanks to Ol'#4, Kulshan, Treekop Pop and all the many many others that I just simply can not remember your names!! I have to say, it really lived up to everything I have read and heard about good people, very friendly, willing to give advice and to help out!! My son and I even got some shooting in!! In my job I tend to deal more with the worst side of people...nice to know there are still plenty of great people out here!! Now it is time to "buckle down" and get spending money!!!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Be careful........

 

They are trying to get you hooked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wasatch Shep Sass #45324]

Guns Guns all this talk of guns and no one mention the clothes you well need L.O.L

Its not about going fast it how good you look going fast

[Lucky L]

Ace_of_Hearts,

 

Yes there are...I mean..yes they did!! LOL