Did I miss something? Straight trigger?

[Most Wanted]

I got money on not handled , at least not in print .

[Snakebite]

Here's the problem: "Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited." AND: • "All parts may be smoothed, reprofiled, polished, deburred, or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these Covenants."

 

These are conflicting statements that can be argued to cross-purposes. To top it off, the inclusion of a "dis-allowance" (i.e. "no trigger shoes") would also mandate that they list all prohibited items in regard to triggers. Again, this would go against the logical process of "modifications not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited".

 

Here, in my mind, is yet another shinning example of why the rule book(s) desperately need to be revisited. This is the kind of thing that will get folks mad at each other due to interpretation.

 

Full disclosure: Not running a flat trigger now - but I might depending how this thing gets handled, or not handled.

Hey Bro... I'm with you on this. I hope that a decision comes down in the next couple of days... If it is allowed, it will give me time to get the hump outa my trigger before the Western Regional, and then nobody will even have a chance! Unless of course their trigger is straighter than mine.... or they shoot faster.

[Chicken Scratch]

Bloody finger greenhorn here,

and this is my 2 cents

I have butchered my finger to death with factory triggers (just ask I'll show you the permanent hole)

since I got one of Slicks Marlins I have been extremely Happy finger!!! ... except when I ran the straight trigger through my finger and broke my hammer 2 weeks ago

 

OK heres my point

straight trigger = happy finger, happy shooter

factory trigger = bloody mess, cannot shoot cuz finger is in a bandage ....then I will have to take up knitting

 

why make a rule to take the Fun out of shooting

Mississippi Kid

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Hey Bro... I'm with you on this. I hope that a decision comes down in the next couple of days... If it is allowed, it will give me time to get the hump outa my trigger before the Western Regional, and then nobody will even have a chance! Unless of course their trigger is straighter than mine.... or they shoot faster.

 

"...unless their trigger is straighter than mine..." That's funny right there. I can just see it now....."Hey man, is that one of those new laser-profiled triggers? I heard those were the straightest on the market so they must be really fast".

[Madd Mike #8595]

is this a straight trigger?

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Not a straight trigger.....just a set screw on the finger lever. Now that would be an external mod I could use.

[Snakebite]

Hi Mississippi Kid... I have a hole in my finger right now. I was watching Deuce's video of him shooting that new Winchester, and promptly went out back and put the trigger through my finger... it has healed up enough that I will be able to shoot next week, but it sure did hurt. I just can not see how he does it. As to your comment, there is no rule being made here. As for me, I could care less about the trigger issue, or a great many of these things. Most of them are like the Cow Magnets on the Gas line anyway. It is the process that is in jeopardy. If things are to be changed... (and I could certainly support some changes) then they must happen in a orderly manner. We can not just disregard the rules that we don't like, and follow the ones we agree with. I can tell you for a fact... if there is a rule.... ANY RULE that the people playing this game don't want, then they can get it changed if they get enough Grass Roots support. I've seen it happen before. But... the FACT is this.... most folks just don't give a hoot one way or the other... I am one of those folks... I don't have a strong opinion about a lot of the rules.. but I do have a strong opinion about them being followed.

THAT is what all of this is about.... it is not just about the Trigger.

 

Snakebite

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Ace,

If we aren't allowed to reprofile triggers then what happens to all those folks that have rounded off the sharp edges in an effort to reduce bloody fingers?

 

 

Stan

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Hi Mississippi Kid... I have a hole in my finger right now. I was watching Deuce's video of him shooting that new Winchester, and promptly went out back and put the trigger through my finger... it has healed up enough that I will be able to shoot next week, but it sure did hurt. I just can not see how he does it. As to your comment, there is no rule being made here. As for me, I could care less about the trigger issue, or a great many of these things. Most of them are like the Cow Magnets on the Gas line anyway. It is the process that is in jeopardy. If things are to be changed... (and I could certainly support some changes) then they must happen in a orderly manner. We can not just disregard the rules that we don't like, and follow the ones we agree with. I can tell you for a fact... if there is a rule.... ANY RULE that the people playing this game don't want, then they can get it changed if they get enough Grass Roots support. I've seen it happen before. But... the FACT is this.... most folks just don't give a hoot one way or the other... I am one of those folks... I don't have a strong opinion about a lot of the rules.. but I do have a strong opinion about them being followed.

THAT is what all of this is about.... it is not just about the Trigger.

 

Snakebite

 

AMEN!

[Anvil Al #59168]

It's not about being faster.

It's about making a little more comfortable for some to shoot.

Myself. Don't need it. Wife did pinch hers now and then. Now she don't.

 

 

And as far as following the rules. As far as I know. We have. And bet most if not all that

have done it. Think they are well within the rules also.

 

I also believe in following the rules as written. And thought I was. Still think I am.

 

Still waiting on the ROC on this matter. Because if it is not. I will have it out before it gets shot

in even the next monthly. As we DO believe in the rules.

 

So those of you that think we put it in thinking or knowing we was even close to pushing a rule is full of BS..

[Monco]

Ace,

If we aren't allowed to reprofile triggers then what happens to all those folks that have rounded off the sharp edges in an effort to reduce bloody fingers?

 

 

Stan

Great Point!

 

Guess the rules will just have to get far more specific. This has happened in every form of competition I have ever been involved in. Then we'll need a Tech Committee too keep it all strait and assign equipment pre-tech and post-tech officials for enforcement at events.

[Snakebite]

It's not about being faster.

It's about making a little more comfortable for some to shoot.

Myself. Don't need it. Wife did pinch hers now and then. Now she don't.

 

 

And as far as following the rules. As far as I know. We have. And bet most if not all that

have done it. Think they are well within the rules also.

 

I also believe in following the rules as written. And thought I was. Still think I am.

 

Still waiting on the ROC on this matter. Because if it is not. I will have it out before it gets shot

in even the next monthly. As we DO believe in the rules.

 

So those of you that think we put it in thinking or knowing we was even close to pushing a rule is full of BS..

You still just don't understand what this is all about... it sure as heck is NOT about you or anyone who has put in such a trigger. I have no doubt that folks thought it was legal....Why.... Because it was for sale, and they never bothered to check! Well, it has been stated and publish time and again, that just because someone makes something doesn't mean it is SASS legal. The requirement must either be enforced, or removed... it can not stand and not be enforced... you may well think what you want, but I strongly suggest that you check things out before you decide to purchase and install them. I will be very surprised if it is ruled acceptable, for two reason... first, it was not submitted for approval as per the rules, and second, it is not a listed mod to the trigger. If it had been submitted, an answer would have been given, and all of this would have been headed off. Making a replacement part that is the same as the one it is replacing would not require any submission.. but if it is a modified part, then it needs to be approved. There is a old saying that most folks have heard. "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission"... that does not always work. There have been a number of items in the past that have been advertised and sold, which were deemed not SASS legal. Everyone that put them in had to remove them. Since I don't believe that you did it knowing it was not SASS legal, I'm hoping that I'm not full of BS. (But... since it has not yet been ruled upon by the ROC, I may well be full of it) Remember... this is just my opinion and take on the matter.

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

Great Point!

 

Guess the rules will just have to get far more specific. This has happened in every form of competition I have ever been involved in. Then we'll need a Tech Committee too keep it all strait and assign equipment pre-tech and post-tech officials for enforcement at events.

You are right... give a inch, take a foot. No doubt that some will take any rule and push it to the point that it becomes a problem. That is a practice that has increased as the game has grown. It has happened with gun parts, leather, clothing, ammunition, and just about everything that is used in the game. In fact... all the things that this game was designed for, and to avoid, have been attack by some who want to skirt the edge. It seems like some folks just lost their common sense. Splitting hairs on this and that until everything must be ruled on and have a absolute answer for every possible thing. It sure makes things tough, and is the reason that the rule books have grown in size. When the Mods Committee was formed and charged with dealing with this situation, they knew that it would be impossible to require everyone to shoot Non-modified equipment... so they took the route of "Drawing a Line in the Sand". Things were not to go any further.... that is why the requirement to submit a request on new items or mods was put into the rule book... I know... I was on that committee!

 

Snakebite

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Snakebite,

So you agree that reprofiling the trigger is allowed? Right?

 

I've rounded the edges of my trigger. That's reprofiling. Right?

 

So the issue is the DEGREE to which it can be reprofiled is the question. Right?

 

Even if the ROC says it can't be straightened how do we know what can be done under the reprofiling allowance? I can see it now......My trigger is not straight. It has a 1 degree curve to it blah blah blah.......

 

 

It is unrealistic to believe that everyone will comprehend the rules using your idea of "common sense". Human beings by their very nature push the edge of the envelope. If we didn't then we would still be using rocks and clubs........to expect folks to not try and make improvements to things is again unrealistic. So instead of getting indignant when someone walks through a wide open door that was left that way on purpose by the mods committee why don't we do one of two things......

 

1. Accept the fact that the door is wide open and be willing to add to it to the "you can't do that list" when something does crop up that is not clearly covered by the rules in their current form.....ie straightening/reprofiling a trigger.

 

2. Close the door completely by changing the rules and providing a complete list of acceptable or unacceptable mods. Then if someone wants to do something that is not on the list they will KNOW for certain that they have to get it approved.

 

Kind of takes that whole common sense requirement out of the picture......

 

Stan

[PECOS PETE, SASS#16437]

Manatee,

I did not mean to offend, but the BS is the implication that if it's ok/done in other games that makes ok in ours.

I agree with Snakebite that it's the process that is important. Not so much this particular issue.

I should have said that the WB not we were sitting in the puddle. Nobody cares where I sit except my wife who occasionally does the laundry.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Manatee,

I did not mean to offend, but the BS is the implication that if it's ok/done in other games that makes ok in ours.

I agree with Snakebite that it's the process that is important. Not so much this particular issue.

I should have said that the WB not we were sitting in the puddle. Nobody cares where I sit except my wife who occasionally does the laundry.

 

Putting the "process" in a higher regard than the "reality" is a mistake commonly made by bureaucrats and politicians. I hope the ROC doesn't make the same mistake.

 

I think Sante Fe River Stan has the best case. The rules CLEARLY allow for reprofiling of parts. To what extent is what's in question. If the ROC can come up with a standard that is fine, but to rule one gun part exempt from the CURRENT rule will be very unpopular among active shooters.

[Snakebite]

Well Stan: I can see that this is going down hill. I'm sorry that you consider my attempt to explain the need for mfgs to follow the process to be indignant. That statement sets right in there with me being full of BS. It is appears that you still have not grasp what this about. IT'S NOT directly ABOUT THE TRIGGER!

 

However, as for the trigger, Common sense, as well as the rules do play a part in all of this. They both allow a person to smooth out rough and sharp edges. The rules state that the trigger can be adjusted for position and thickness. Of course, a person can take the Re-profiling statement and run away with it. Since the rules don't say that you can not extend the trigger out and to the side... which would stop the pinch problem, some would of course claim that would be re-profiling, and thus would be automatically legal. No body has sent the troops out on a witch hunt for straight triggers, but if it is thrown into your face as a TG or T.O., then you must deal with it. As for me... I choose to follow the rules on it. I don't know how the ROC and WB is going to interpret all of this, but I can GUARANTEE you this... what ever it is, agree or not, I will support it and enforce it. This is going nowhere at this point... I'm done.

 

Snakebite

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Snakebite, As the WBAS guy I feel the pain coming. This ruling will affect our sport as well. My position was stated long ago on this thread. I think it is an illegal modification, but I'm not in charge.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

My hope is that whatever the decision, it will be clearly stated in the rules.

 

If you will notice, I based my interpretation of the rules relative to Goody's post on a response from a member of the ROC and existing rules. I could be wrong. However, other potential misinterpretations can lead to costly mistakes. The most costly would be illegally modifying ones guns, in good faith, and getting to a major match and not having a legal gun to shoot.

 

As folks say, I personally "don't have a dog in this fight." I just want to know the rules so I can advise local club members what is correct and make correct calls at matches.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Anvil Al #59168]

Trigger position may be adjusted.

 

 

For me that says it all.

 

Can be re-profiled and position adjusted is what the RULES say.

Dang. thought that's what we did. All within the rules as written.

 

Right there in black and white.

[Manatee]

Manatee,

I did not mean to offend, but the BS is the implication that if it's ok/done in other games that makes ok in ours.

I agree with Snakebite that it's the process that is important. Not so much this particular issue.

I should have said that the WB not we were sitting in the puddle. Nobody cares where I sit except my wife who occasionally does the laundry.

 

Peace.

 

There are a number of ideas that have been prototyped by industrious cowboys or their friends over the years. Many of them have been good for our game, improving reliability or accuracy, etc. The ROC process is not without flaws, but it at least represents some discipline in the way modifications and improvements are introduced to the game.

 

As is typical, someone's Ox gets gored on the Wire and teams form on each side to initiate an internet rugby session. No one wins or loses, but it allows emotions to get high over something as inconsequential as the number of angels dancing on the end of a cowboy gun.

 

In this particular instance, I see no benefit to a straight trigger for most shooters. In fact, I can see some downsides to the use of this feature. However, that never stopped anyone before in this game. Over the years we've seen many mods that were, in hindsight, quite ridiculous.

 

As a wise man once said: You can't paint a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Peace.

 

 

As a wise man once said: You can't paint a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

I once worked with a painting contractor that often was herd to say

"what do you get if you paing a turd white"

his answer

"a white turd"

 

true fact, true story as well

[Anvil Al #59168]

Some may see this as a turd.

 

All I know is, Wife use to pinch her finger now and then. But has not once this was put in.

Making for a much happier wife.

[Colt McAllister]

Anyone ever notice how straight a 73 straight stock trigger is versus a 73 deluxe trigger? A bigger difference than any gunsmith has done that I've seen. Is this one going to get as stupid as the pistol hammer ruling? Kind of like the Bisley grip frame and Bisley hammer deal. You know, for instance you can't put a deluxe trigger in a straight stock and vice versa. Before that happens, keep in mind for a short time Uberti sent Deluxe rifles out with straight stock triggers.

[Monco]

As a wise man once said: You can't paint a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

 

Thank you Manatee!

I'm always on the lookout for "colorful" sayings like that!

:lol:

[Madd Mike #8595]

manufacturers doing / making changes,

have many times ment headachs for the SASS rules guys

 

just because a manufacturer or a gunsmith does X

does not always make it so

 

this too needs to be worked out with the rules

 

trigger bites hurt, I have many scar's from them, but I always tought it was a part of screwing up

 

mileage will cary

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Well Stan: I can see that this is going down hill. I'm sorry that you consider my attempt to explain the need for mfgs to follow the process to be indignant. That statement sets right in there with me being full of BS. It is appears that you still have not grasp what this about. IT'S NOT directly ABOUT THE TRIGGER!

 

However, as for the trigger, Common sense, as well as the rules do play a part in all of this. They both allow a person to smooth out rough and sharp edges. The rules state that the trigger can be adjusted for position and thickness. Of course, a person can take the Re-profiling statement and run away with it. Since the rules don't say that you can not extend the trigger out and to the side... which would stop the pinch problem, some would of course claim that would be re-profiling, and thus would be automatically legal. No body has sent the troops out on a witch hunt for straight triggers, but if it is thrown into your face as a TG or T.O., then you must deal with it. As for me... I choose to follow the rules on it. I don't know how the ROC and WB is going to interpret all of this, but I can GUARANTEE you this... what ever it is, agree or not, I will support it and enforce it. This is going nowhere at this point... I'm done.

 

Snakebite

 

In your attempt explain why there is a need for a process.....you said

"Folks are taken at their word, and expected to follow the rules."

and

"It seems like some folks just lost their common sense."

 

Not everyone in this game was privy to the conversations that the mods committee had when discussing the rules. The intent is not readily available. The only thing available to the rest of us is the written word which in this case is ambiguous at best. So I don't think questioning peoples integrity or intelligence is quite fair in this situation.

 

You can rest assured I have quite the GRASP of the situation......it's not about the trigger.....it's about putting forth a set of rules that EVERYONE can read and understand that don't require one to be involved in the creation process to understand the "intent of" the rules.....at least for me that's what it is about.....and I'm not throwing stones at the mods committee as I have no doubt that there were MANY pressures coming from MANY directions when all this was being discussed and you guys did the best you could.

 

Heck....I'm ok with what we have as long as everyone understands that IF a mod made under this broad umbrella might be performed on a gun and it might also be ruled illegal AFTERWARDS. If the ROC says straight triggers are illegal than I will support them. If they say my rounded trigger is illegal I will replace it. We just ALL need to be on the same page....and that page needs to be EASY to understand.....

 

 

Stan

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

And the answer is: the modification currently referred to as straightening the trigger
or replacing the trigger with a straight one is not permitted as it is currently presented in the SASS Firearms Covenants.

The first relevant statement made by the covenants:

Original and replicas may be used in competition provided they are in good, safe working order. In each of the respective sections, allowed modifications are listed. Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal.

Next we come to the general allowances:

• All parts may be smoothed, reprofiled, polished, deburred, or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these Covenants.

This indicates that any part may have its profile changed and that change is only limited by the profiler’s imagination.

For this reason specific changes are listed as acceptable.

The modifications allowed to the hammer are as follows:

HAMMERS
• Hammers may be replaced or exchanged with hammers designed for the same frame size (e.g., small frame revolver hammers may not be installed on large frame revolvers or vice versa).
• Internal parts of the hammer may be changed (e.g., to allow for a half-cock notch on a revolver).
• Bisley style revolver hammers may only be used when mated with a Bisley style grip frame.
• Ruger Super Blackhawk/Montado style revolver hammers (i.e. lowered and widened hammers) are acceptable on both adjustable and fixed sight model revolvers.
• Hammer stops may be added.
• The hammer travel distance on any revolver may be adjusted.
• Rear sight notches cut into the revolver hammer may be widened.
• Hammer spur grooves may be recut.

As you can see there are clear limitations put on the hammer by this section and no mention of re-profiling or profiling is made. The only possible association with profiling made in allowances for the hammer could possibly be in stating (i.e. lowered and widened hammers).

For the trigger there is a similar list of acceptable changes that can be made as follows:

TRIGGERS AND TRIGGER GUARDS
• Triggers may be profiled to narrow their width.
• Trigger position may be adjusted.
• Trigger stops may be added.
• Shotgun trigger guards may be wrapped with leather or other natural material.
• Bending the trigger guard on side by sides so triggers are more exposed is not allowed.
• Trigger shoes are not allowed.

Again as you can see there are clear limitations put on the trigger by this section and the only reference to a profile change that can be made is the statement, “Triggers may be profiled to narrow their width.”

The statement following, “Trigger position may be adjusted” may also be considered as profiling.
No other profiling is permitted for the trigger.

There is a process for modifications that are not currently allowable. I’m sure it isn’t difficult to understand why this process exists.

Although it is not within the purview of the ROC, for this issue a modification request form has been sent to Slick McClade. The rest is up to him or someone else that does this modification to respond.

The Committee would also stress the importance of not making questionable modifications without checking first.

Your kind and patient consideration in this issue is very much appreciated.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Although I disagree with it.

I WILL go by it as this is from the ROC.

And it WILL BE taken out ASAP and NOT shot again.

As we DO go by the rules. And thought that we WAS going by the rule.

 

 

Now. There are a bunch of 73's out there that have it also. So hope some of you are looking

at those also.

[Four Bucks #36386 Life]

Well boys and girls...no matter which side of this debate you come down on, there is a ruling. Now, let's go shooting!!

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

I was just informed that the appropriate form has been submitted so for those of you that have this modification all is not lost.

[Manatee]

It's been a long journey, but no matter how far we went, here we are.

 

Thanks for the clarification Rowdy. Won't affect any of my customers.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

interesting......"This indicates that any part may have its profile changed and that change is only limited by the profiler’s imagination."....but we are going to contradict that by supplying a list of what can be done by gun and/or gun parts....... so no imagination is allowed.

 

I'm ok with that......at least we're on the SAME PAGE now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thank you ROC!!!!!!!!!

 

Stan

 

PS would my rounded corners be considered narrowed?

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

I was just informed that the appropriate form has been submitted so for those of you that have this modification all is not lost.

 

 

Thanks.

Like I said. it is not about speed. It's about not pinching your finger.

 

I am sure someone in the old west. Could have pinched there finger in a rifle a time or two. Looked at it and said.

Heck. It I bend that thing a little bit. It won't do that no more.

 

Something that could be easily done back then for sure. So not like it is some big modern deal.

Bet folk bent all kinds of things back then to make them work for them.

[Monco]

Yea, I'm with Stan here and maybe I'm a little dense.....does this mean that the corners I ground off of my 73 trigger tip to make it less painful is "thinning" but only at the tip?

 

Are you able to tell in my avatar that my trigger was modified to be less painful?