Did I miss something? Straight trigger?

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

You take a curved trigger and make it straight. You can't do that without changing the position. How simple and unambiguous is that?

 

+1 Slicks trigger is legal. Sure glad this question popped up, as it reminded me to get on with ordering up on of those "Phantom" triggers for my Marloooon!

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Grizzster, you sayin' it is legal, even emphatically just don't make it so. I for one remain unconvinced. I hope it is but I'm afeared it is not.

 

Until PWB or another of the ROC members says it is the issue is still in doubt.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Shooters Handbook Page #3

Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal.

 

The trigger listed on Slick's website is not specifiably referenced, therefore, in my opinion, it is illegal unless and until it is listed as legal.

 

I draw your attention to a similar modification to Shotgun opening levers being bent. They are listed and the specification that apply are listed up to and including RE-PROFILING.

Shooters Handbook page #9

The top opening lever on break action shotguns may be bent (reprofiled) by no more than ½" from the center of the tang to the outside edge of the lever.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello Folks,

 

The ROC is looking into this.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Anvil Al #59168]

Hello Folks,

 

The ROC is looking into this.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

If they are not. They better get the word out.

 

because it is not just those Marlin triggers from Slick that are straight.

 

There are many a gunsmith out there with a bunch of straight triggers on 73's

[Slick McClade]

No comment

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Unless I pointed it out.

 

99.9% would look at one on the rifle and never know it.

 

 

That's beside the point, Al. Unless someone measures a short stroke 100% would not no if it was legal. The point is if it is legal, fine. If it is illegal, fine. But we should know the rules, then all play by the rules. It is the honorable thing to do.

[Slick McClade]

[Griff]

I gotta say, Pandora's Box was opened long ago, and intentional or not, advantageous or not, the equipment race has been pickin' up steam, runnin' off under its own steam with hardly a brakeman at the wheel. What I've experienced is that if you ask about a mod b4 making it, it'll get denied; but go ahead and do it, and it'll be legal by the next match.

 

If there's three common answers amongst folks I know that played this game 20 years ago, are still capable, still have the guns and yet refuse to play now... the preponderence of equipment mods is probably 2nd on the list.

 

Don't get me wrong. I DO NOT CARE what you do to your guns. My sixguns are modified, so's my rifle and shotgun... I wouldn't shoot a stock gun... I simply love them too much to abuse them. I have as much fun as I have ever had in this game... but I miss some of my old friends. If everyone is shooting short-stroked rifles, short-stroked pistols, and short-stroked shotguns; shootin' 24-shot stages in the teens... and I'm still workin' on averagin' 60 seconds... it doesn't matter. Except, frankly, we ain't playin' the same game. Well... at the very least we ain't following the same rules.

[Griff]

When you pick up a shooting magazine do you ever see "SASS " World champion ...,,,,,, NO its IDPA or three Gun and the list goes on ....... Sooo do you see the problem yet ???? Of course not .

Slick,

 

We've never had the pleasure of meeting... my fault. Keep wantin' to get down your way and shoot... but, with all due respect, the only response to the above comment I have is, it's because the shooting magazines don't think SASS is a "sport". And with a shooter base in their 50's to 60's, do we want it to be? Movement is frowned on as it cuts the speed a stage can be shot it, tuckers out us ol' timers... and that lack alone, generally discourages the perception of "sport". Then we could get into the average target size and distance... no, wait, you don't have to convince me... "there is no target big..." ad nauseum, is very true. But, the perception among other shooting disciplines is that CAS is not a challenge. Targets are too big and too close... ergo, not challenging. Hence, not a "sport".

 

I'm guilty myself... I refer to it as a game. It used to be a "sport" for me, but I've slowed down, both shooting speed and runnin' speed, so now it's a "game".

[Manatee]

Calling your fellow cowboys whiners and crybabies and poor sports ain't gonna solve this

 

Goody is about as cowboy as they come and asked a legitimate question. I'd ride the river with him any day.

 

Many of us think it's not a big deal. I don't think it makes any difference whatsoever.

 

But blaming a long term competitor for the decline of match attendance because he is "of the ilk" to raise a point is.....horesh*t.

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

This is one of those things that takes on an undeserved life of it's own on the WIRE, and larger than it is worth on a bad day, but there you are. I would bet that 99% of the folks reading this thread would not recognize, notice, or care about a "straight trigger" vs whatever.

 

I agree with Nate, that if "You take a curved trigger and make it straight. You can't do that without changing the position. How simple and unambiguous is that?" See rule.

 

 

Grizzster, you sayin' it is legal, even emphatically just don't make it so. I for one remain unconvinced. I hope it is but I'm afeared it is not.

 

Until PWB or another of the ROC members says it is the issue is still in doubt.

 

Well, that's true, LD, so I will wait with baited breath any and all "rulings" from whoever, but IMHO, this kind of petty crap is... well, petty!!

 

 

"Grizzster" I kinda like it!

 

PS: I am going to order one of those triggers just to see if anyone notices! This could be fun!

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Slick,

 

We've never had the pleasure of meeting... my fault. Keep wantin' to get down your way and shoot... but, with all due respect, the only response to the above comment I have is, it's because the shooting magazines don't think SASS is a "sport". And with a shooter base in their 50's to 60's, do we want it to be? Movement is frowned on as it cuts the speed a stage can be shot it, tuckers out us ol' timers... and that lack alone, generally discourages the perception of "sport". Then we could get into the average target size and distance... no, wait, you don't have to convince me... "there is no target big..." ad nauseum, is very true. But, the perception among other shooting disciplines is that CAS is not a challenge. Targets are too big and too close... ergo, not challenging. Hence, not a "sport".

 

I'm guilty myself... I refer to it as a game. It used to be a "sport" for me, but I've slowed down, both shooting speed and runnin' speed, so now it's a "game".

 

 

I like to tell the new folks it's not really a completion. It's more like a costume Party with guns.

[Oklahoma Dee]

In my opinion,

 

if Slick McClade is selling it, he has done the groundwork and it is legal. He is a top notch business man and competitor, and extremely fair minded. He understands that the path to being a success in anything ( for most people) is hard work, and knowing your craft.

Now that is my opinion and its okay should others disagree.

 

Oklahoma Dee

[Griff]

I like to tell the new folks it's not really a completion. It's more like a costume Party with guns.

I seem to recall that it was Judge Roy Bean that I first heard comment, "... it's a shooting match wrapped up in a costume contest." Hard to argue that point. And from my saddle, you can apply yourself equally hard to either or BOTH aspects.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Calling your fellow cowboys whiners and crybabies and poor sports ain't gonna solve this

 

Goody is about as cowboy as they come and asked a legitimate question. I'd ride the river with him any day.

 

Many of us think it's not a big deal. I don't think it makes any difference whatsoever.

 

But blaming a long term competitor for the decline of match attendance because he is "of the ilk" to raise a point is.....horesh*t.

 

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

I really don't know whether he was addressing me or not. Seems kind of far fetched, as he has shot with me enough that he should know my character, and the fact that my ass is handed to me on a regular basis. But just in case, I will take a moment to defend(?) my query.

 

I became an RO1 at the inception of the program, within the first six months of it being taught. Ditto when RO2 came along. Then, as the need arose for a TG within our club I ponied up for a Life membership and assumed that role for some 7 or 8 years. I did all of this not to gain a competitive advantage, but to try and ascertain that rules, whatever they are, were administered on a fair and even basis. I know it hasn't always made me or my ilk the most popular people at shoots, but so be it.

 

Now as for this trigger thing. As I said in the original post, I heard about this modification in passing at a shoot on Saturday. In actuallity it was concerning a 73. I never mentioned Slick or even Marlins. In fact my query was completely ambiguous, just wondering if such a change fit into the rules as they are now written. To tell the truth if I was still a TG I would have posed my question there instead of on the main wire.

 

In closing, feel it's a damn shame that people feel the need to attack one another for starting a discussion, or because someone is on the other side of an opinion. The wire should be for the open exchange of ideas. At shoots I'll continue to call them as I see them. Ya'll have a good day.

[Anvil Al #59168]

That's beside the point, Al. Unless someone measures a short stroke 100% would not no if it was legal. The point is if it is legal, fine. If it is illegal, fine. But we should know the rules, then all play by the rules. It is the honorable thing to do.

 

 

I agree if it is the rule. We should go by it. And if deemed illegal. I will change out the wife's before we ever shoot again.

 

BUT

 

What I am saying is. That myself. And of course MANY others. including many Cowboy gunsmiths and MANY other shooters

that have them on there 73's ALL think it is 100% legal. Or we would not have put them in or had it done.

 

As myself and my wife. Would not knowingly break the rules.

 

SO. IF it is not. They really need to get the word out so we can change them all back to make them legal.

 

But the way I see it. It IS legal. But now that this has came up. Sure would like to hear from the powers that be.

As if not. I want to get this changed out. As we DO NOT want to shoot illegal equipment.

But need to hear it from the rules people in charge. As I feel it is legal.

 

As we only did it to help keep from pinching her finger. Which has happened before. But not sense we

changed it out.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Much ado about nothing.......

 

Profile - the outermost shape, view, or edge of an object

His fingers traced the profile of the handle.

 

Profiled - To draw or shape a profile of.

 

Reprofiled - profiled again

 

Shooters handbook Page 3...which has already been posted in this thread........

 

 

• All parts may be smoothed, reprofiled, polished, deburred, or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these Covenants.

 

I see no prohibition in the covenants concerning straightening triggers. It would seem that the trigger may be "reprofiled" and based on the definition the outermost shape can be changed.....ie straightened.

 

Unless someone can find a prohibition I don't see how it could be deemed illegal.

 

Stan

 

 

[Slick McClade]

I still like ya Goody !! lol

[Monco]

Seems like a non issue to me. You would think some are taking home paychecks for winning matches.

 

All I can think of is......

 

[PECOS PETE, SASS#16437]

Lone Dog is correct that we have been sitting in the mud puddle at the bottom of the hill for sometime. I wonder if the trigger could be "reprofiled" to where your finger acted like the trip on the Rifleman's.

Manatee's remakes about other games deserves a Clark Gable response.

[Snakebite]

"Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited. Parties

interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in

the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration

application from SASS. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the ONLY source

of approval. Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms

used without this approval are illegal."

There are many situations where folks just move right on along doing what ever they want to do. They get a number of their un-approved mods out in the field, and then come across with the claim... "Well, the horse is already out of the barn.... the Cats out of the bag.... everyone has them... they are in wide use..... bla, bla, bla".. You know what... that is just BS. The rules should be enforced or done away with. No doubt that many of them should be gone, but until they are removed, or they are changed to accommodate someone or group, they should be enforced. This is just my opinion on things... but there is no doubt that the so-called "Line in the Sand" has been put on wheels and is moved around at will.

Snakebite

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

"Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited. Parties

interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in

the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration

application from SASS. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the ONLY source

of approval. Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms

used without this approval are illegal."

There are many situations where folks just move right on along doing what ever they want to do. They get a number of their un-approved mods out in the field, and then come across with the claim... "Well, the horse is already out of the barn.... the Cats out of the bag.... everyone has them... they are in wide use..... bla, bla, bla".. You know what... that is just BS. The rules should be enforced or done away with. No doubt that many of them should be gone, but until they are removed, or they are changed to accommodate someone or group, they should be enforced. This is just my opinion on things... but there is no doubt that the so-called "Line in the Sand" has been put on wheels and is moved around at will.

Snakebite

 

 

So as a member of the ROC.

Are you saying this IS illegal?? Yes or No.

 

That is what I NEED to know. Along with MANY others with them on not just Slick's triggers. But the MANY more 73's

[Kid Drover]

What is a Clark Gable response? OOOHH? Never Mind, cuz, I don't give a D@#N!!!

 

KCD

[Snakebite]

So as a member of the ROC.

Are you saying this IS illegal?? Yes or No.

 

That is what I NEED to know. Along with MANY others with them on not just Slick's triggers. But the MANY more 73's

Anvil.... I am no longer a active member of the ROC... If I were, I would NOT have made any comment at all, at this point in time. I'm sure that the ROC will consider things and make a final determination, and will THEN announce that decision. However... I am very familiar with the rules, where they came from and who it was that put them into place. I freely admit that there are areas that need work, but this is not one of them. These things were researched, assembled, and presented to the TG body, who approved them. This was a very dedicated group of folks from beginning to end. Shortly after they were put into play, they were tested in a big way. One guy decided to build a gun that was not approved, I guess he figured that eveyone would just roll over.. well, they didn't. There have been many Smiths and Mfgs out there that have followed the rules and applied for their design acceptance.. most were approved, and of course some were not approved. But what has happened, is that we have folks out there now just doing anything they want... they say... well, it looks legal to me, so they just run with it. These things don't get presented, and the ROC or the WB doesn't even get wind of it until long after it has already been put into the field. The only way to regain control of this situation is to start enforcing the rule.

 

Snakebite

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I don't care which side of the fence this come down on, but it sure makes it a lot easier when a shooter comes to you and asks a question, that there is a clear answer. There is already another thread about octagon barrels on the wire that sits in the same category as this thread.

 

Slick is a stand up guy and I didn't mean to drag him into this. I was just using his picture of a Marlin trigger on his website as an example.

[Snakebite]

AoH;

This is not, Throwing Rocks, at anyone in particular... it is directed at the industry as a whole. The rule covers Leather makers, Gun Smiths, Gun MFGs, Parts MFGs and just about everyone who supplies things for this GAME. Before you go to the expense of mfg something, have it approved. Got a new idea.. that's great, but follow the procedure to make sure that it is OK. There are rules in place which were put there in a attempt to stave off the continued escalation of mods, and what some considered the "Bastardization" of the Game. At the time, there was to be a so-called Line in the Sand... and NOTHING further was to be done without prior approval. Over time, that has degenerated, and now we once again have folks doing things without following the process. Our GAME is NOT like others. I hear a chorus from some folks about how the IDPA or the IPSC or this or that do things.. how they check everyone and everyone's equipment.. well, that is one of the reasons that this game was founded... Folks are taken at their word, and expected to follow the rules.. and the rules say if you are doing something external, that is not specifically allow or disallowed, then you MUST get approval...... IN WRITING! It does not matter that there are many of them in the field, if they are deemed illegal (and that has not happened yet) then the rules should be applied. This line in the sand is constantly being moved.. and the excuse always seems to be that Everyone is using them... well they may be popular in certain areas, but I've never seen one, and it wouldn't matter if I had. The rules were not followed, and IMO, that alone makes them Illegal. That may very well change, but IMO, this "After the Fact" approval is n ot the way it was designed to happen.

 

Snakebite

[Manatee]

Lone Dog is correct that we have been sitting in the mud puddle at the bottom of the hill for sometime. I wonder if the trigger could be "reprofiled" to where your finger acted like the trip on the Rifleman's.

Manatee's remakes about other games deserves a Clark Gable response.

 

Pete: That's b.s. and you know it. Many of the mods that have come into our game...including some of the rule changes, started in other shooting sports. SASS itself was started by shooters who wanted something different....and they came from another shooting sport.

 

I really don't care about this mod. Like I said, it looks OK. Good enough for me. BUT, straight triggers are not Original Ideas. They were BORROWED from somewhere else.

 

With that, I bid adieu.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Snakebite,

In the covenants under ALL FIREARMS?

 

 

• All parts may be smoothed, reprofiled, polished, deburred, or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these Covenants.

 

Do you disagree that straightening the trigger is reprofiling?

 

 

Stan

[Anvil Al #59168]

Snakebite,

In the covenants under ALL FIREARMS?

 

 

Do you disagree that straightening the trigger is reprofiling?

 

 

Stan

 

 

+1

That why I feel it is 100% legal.

Or I would not have put one in.

Still feel that it is 100% legal.

 

But waiting on the ROC to let us know.

[Snakebite]

Stan.. you ask a fair question, and it takes me back to the Shotgun lever bending, re profiling, adjusting issue. It seems that the release levers were being radically modified, and it was being done under the re-profiling rule/statement. That caused things to be evaluated and a specific ruling made and voted on as to just how much it could be bent or re-profiled. I can see that this issue could end up in the same situation as the shotgun lever. The term "Re-profile" has been used to justify many things. Back before the rules regarding hammers was thrown under the bus, I remember a fellow that was replacing the hammers on a pair of Clone model "P". The hammers he received were not exactly the same, and he wanted to re-profile one of them so that they would match. I think that was certainly acceptable under Re-profiling. When the Cut, Weld, Hammer, Beat and Bend guys were short stroking the 73s, It required that the lever be "Re-profiled". These were the type of things that were in mind when the term Re-profiling was put into the Covenants. It was NOT intended to be used as a "Go-around" for the manufacture of parts! I do not agree that such action falls under the spirit of that statement. This umbrella of re-profiling could be a endless thing if it is not brought under control. So...I will answer your direct question.

 

"I do not disagree that straightening the trigger is re-profiling."

 

Snakebite

[Dang It Dan 13202]

ANY EXTERNAL MODIFICATION TO ANY FIREARM NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED IN THIS HANDBOOK IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED!

 

Since the trigger modification is an external modification and is not specifically allowed.

TRIGGERS AND TRIGGER GUARDS

• Triggers may be profiled to narrow their width.

• Trigger position may be adjusted.

 

 

Stan,

 

Sorry but a straight trigger DOES NOT mean the same thing as the two explanations above. I read this as "if you want to narrow your trigger, you can". And, "if you want to move it forward, you can". Yes, yes, if you straighten it you move it forward BUT NOT IN THE SAME CONFIGURATION as it was originally in - the shape would NOT be the same.

 

Sorry, but I am not buying it. I had my trigger straightened in 2004 - they "suggested" that I put a stock one back in before Mule Camp of that year.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stan.. you ask a fair question, and it takes me back to the Shotgun lever bending, re profiling, adjusting issue. It seems that the release levers were being radically modified, and it was being done under the re-profiling rule/statement. That caused things to be evaluated and a specific ruling made and voted on as to just how much it could be bent or re-profiled. I can see that this issue could end up in the same situation as the shotgun lever. The term "Re-profile" has been used to justify many things. Back before the rules regarding hammers was thrown under the bus, I remember a fellow that was replacing the hammers on a pair of Clone model "P". The hammers he received were not exactly the same, and he wanted to re-profile one of them so that they would match. I think that was certainly acceptable under Re-profiling. When the Cut, Weld, Hammer, Beat and Bend guys were short stroking the 73s, It required that the lever be "Re-profiled". These were the type of things that were in mind when the term Re-profiling was put into the Covenants. It was NOT intended to be used as a "Go-around" for the manufacture of parts! I do not agree that such action falls under the spirit of that statement. This umbrella of re-profiling could be a endless thing if it is not brought under control. So...I will answer your direct question.

 

"I do not disagree that straightening the trigger is re-profiling."

 

Snakebite

I agree with your last statement....."This umbrella of re-profiling could be a endless thing if it is not brought under control".....and I am not arguing the intent. What I am saying is that if we don't want straightened triggers then we need to add it to the list of prohibited items instead of castigating those that are following the rules as they are currently written.

 

As we have learned with the miss flow chart and the P call......we can't rely on INTENT only what happens or in this case what is written.

 

Uncle Dan......the FIRST section that I am quoting is for ALL FIREARMS and the following sections address the different types/parts laying out specific allowances or dis-allowances. Based on the ALL FIREARMS clause that allows for re-profiling (Snakebite agrees that it is re-profiling) then a specific statement dis-allowing straightening of the triggers would have to exist. in the section quoted by you and Ace of Hearts.

 

The rules need to be applied as WRITTEN and if the INTENT was different then the rules should be revised to reflect the intent.

 

Stan

 

PS.....I'm not running a straight trigger on anything......AND......I don't care if someone does........

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Here's the problem: "Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited." AND: • "All parts may be smoothed, reprofiled, polished, deburred, or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these Covenants."

 

These are conflicting statements that can be argued to cross-purposes. To top it off, the inclusion of a "dis-allowance" (i.e. "no trigger shoes") would also mandate that they list all prohibited items in regard to triggers. Again, this would go against the logical process of "modifications not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited".

 

Here, in my mind, is yet another shinning example of why the rule book(s) desperately need to be revisited. This is the kind of thing that will get folks mad at each other due to interpretation.

 

Full disclosure: Not running a flat trigger now - but I might depending how this thing gets handled, or not handled.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

A relatively simple fix would be to delete the word reprofiled on Page #3, and on Page #9 in the shooters handbook. ( I believe the original intent was to allow the curve of cam or the pivot of levers, and other such modifications to be changed without changes in the handbook)

or

Add the word internal before the word "parts" on page #3. The word reprofiled still should be removed on page 9.

Causing it to read:

All internal parts may be smoothed, reprofiled, polished, deburred, or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these Covenants.

 

This does not resolve the trigger question fully.

My suggestion would be to approve the "Happy Trigger" by Wild West Guns and the Phantom Trigger by Slick McClade.

 

I am sure that everyone would welcome a constructive suggestion or additions to the above.