Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 When we shoot the low velocity loads that some of the cowboys seem to like, they shoot low some of the time. I'm thinking that the reason is that the weight of the bullet in the barrel stays in the barrel so long out at the end of the gun that it just weights down the gun so that it sags and ends up shooting low. Just wondering if anyone else has observed this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I always thought the low velocity bullets just took longer to get to the target and factoring in the earth's rotation... That's why the high competitive cowpokes like the targets closer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think the OP assumed that I was aiming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulshan 20262 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Low velocity loads recoil less so the barrel does not rise as much before the bullet exits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The down force of gravity is equal on all moving objects. Bullets traveling slower to a given distance will be pulled down more than bullets traveling faster at the same distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 If ya throw you hand just right while you are shooting. you can also make it curve. I know you can. Seen it in a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 In a handgun, heavier bullets or heavier loads of the same bullet impact higher than lighter bullets or slower bullets of the same weight. My understanding is that handgun sights are regulated to account for some amount of recoil raising the muzzle prior to the bullet exiting the barrel. I read about this concept in NRA muzzleloading pistol competition where shooters set their sights for one range (typically 10 yards) but shoot at 15 and 25 yards in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attica Jack #23953 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Lighter bullets plus light loads, equals less muzzle flip, and the bullets will print low. With a lighter bullet and a faster load, less time in the barrel, the bullet will print low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I don't know exactly why.......but if you want to hit point of aim you need a file ran across the front sight. "My thinking" is since many of the SA's are 357 Mags AND have a fixed sight you will need a tall sight to shoot POI with the 357's. Since you can't add metal they give you plenty of sight to make that happen. So a 38 is going to hit low a tad anyway. If you want a 750 FPS SASS load to hit POI at the distances we shoot you need a file........or better yet a dremel.......lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 My experience has been the opposite. Given the same weight bullet and a lighter powder charge I have experienced POI higher than POA. Having asked about this I was told that a lighter load gave lower velocity and longer time in the barrel as it recoiled causing the higher impact. But, maybe this only occurs at certain velocities, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Howdy I wish I had a dollar for every time I I have heard that explanation about the amount of time the bullet is in the barrel affecting point of impact. That explanation really does not hold any water. The difference in time between a bullet traveling 5 or 6 inches at say 500 fps and say 550 or even 600 fps is so insignificant that it hardly has any bearing at all. What is much more significant is how high the muzzle rises before the bullet exits the barrel. My own tests with 38s showed that a 158 grain semi-wadcutter propelled by 4.4 grains of a very popular Smokeless powder impacted several inches higher than the same bullet fired from the same gun with 4.0 grains of the same powder.* Targets were placed about the same as SASS pistol targets. The gun was a S&W K-38 with a six inch barrel, fired from the bench with my wrists resting on sandbags. Clearly, the heavier powder charge was causing the muzzle to rise more before the bullet exited than with the lighter powder charge. Don't forget, we are only talking about a degree or two more muzzle flip. That can easily account for a couple of inches at 15 yards or so. *Wire rules prevent me from divulging the exact load, but the powder starts with a U and ends with a E. And there is a Q somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I don't know exactly why.......but if you want to hit point of aim you need a file ran across the front sight. "My thinking" is since many of the SA's are 357 Mags AND have a fixed sight you will need a tall sight to shoot POI with the 357's. Since you can't add metal they give you plenty of sight to make that happen. So a 38 is going to hit low a tad anyway. If you want a 750 FPS SASS load to hit POI at the distances we shoot you need a file........or better yet a dremel.......lol. For me a few thousands can be taken off with a file, it does not take much. AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack McGee, SASS #46908 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hey Sam, just apply this formula. H x D x BS = bullet drop H = Hogwash D = drivel BS = well I think you know what that means Hey when are you, Sun and Wyatt gonna shoot with the Hogwash, I mean the Hotdog posse again. I miss you man!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 dah dimishing returns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Howdy I wish I had a dollar for every time I I have heard that explanation about the amount of time the bullet is in the barrel affecting point of impact. That explanation really does not hold any water. The difference in time between a bullet traveling 5 or 6 inches at say 500 fps and say 550 or even 600 fps is so insignificant that it hardly has any bearing at all. What is much more significant is how high the muzzle rises before the bullet exits the barrel. My own tests with 38s showed that a 158 grain semi-wadcutter propelled by 4.4 grains of a very popular Smokeless powder impacted several inches higher than the same bullet fired from the same gun with 4.0 grains of the same powder.* Targets were placed about the same as SASS pistol targets. The gun was a S&W K-38 with a six inch barrel, fired from the bench with my wrists resting on sandbags. Clearly, the heavier powder charge was causing the muzzle to rise more before the bullet exited than with the lighter powder charge. Don't forget, we are only talking about a degree or two more muzzle flip. That can easily account for a couple of inches at 15 yards or so. *Wire rules prevent me from divulging the exact load, but the powder starts with a U and ends with a E. And there is a Q somewhere in the middle. +1 Just did a test on paper with chronograph last weekend. Heavier bullets also create higher impacts given the same velocity due to recoil. Then toss in the ultra light loads that some use and you will aslo get some incosistency in the mix as well. For me, a 125 gr. TCFP bullet with X gr. of trail boss (within mfg. published loads) in 357 cases with Federal Magnum primers gave and average of 730 fps. and printed about 2" low. 158 gr. RNFP bullet with X +.5 gr. of trail boss (still within mfg. published loads) in 357 cases gave 734 avg. fps yeilded 1.5" low at same distance. There was certainly more felt recoil......both groups through SASS Vaquero's and both guns hit in roughly the same place at the close distance. I have not filed the sights and probablly won't.....these are't target guns after all. My main purpose was to develop a more accurate stubborn knockdown load. FYI, my velocities turned out being quite a bit slower than what is published by the mfg....gun difference, chronograph difference, etc. etc., who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 When we shoot the low velocity loads that some of the cowboys seem to like, they shoot low some of the time. I'm thinking that the reason is that the weight of the bullet in the barrel stays in the barrel so long out at the end of the gun that it just weights down the gun so that it sags and ends up shooting low. Just wondering if anyone else has observed this? Handguns rise when shot due to the forces acting on the gun. The bullet is accelerated down the barrel and the gun is accelerated backwards. The proportional weight of the bullet versus the handgun means that the bullet will rapidly accelerate while the hundreds times heavier gun will only move a little. The heavier the bullet - the more closer the forces become, so for any given acceleration of the heavier bullet will impart more recoil into the handgun. Handgun barrels are above the center line of the hand/gun combination, so the forces are acting one or more inches above a pivot point (your wrist). The resulting torque is muzzle flip or muzzle rise, and is compensated for by the height of the sights. Factory sights come regulated for a certain bullet weight at a standard velocity, .38 used to be regulated for a 158 gr lead bullet at 800 f/s, Colt .45's for a 250 gr lead bullet at 900 f/s. That means that for a loading at that weight & velocity, the bullet will impact where aimed at 20 - 25 yds, depending on manufacturer. Some guns were regulated for 50 yards (1870's vintage Colt .45s). Changing bullet weight down can be compensated by removing height from the front; since the gun won't recoil as much the front sight doesn't need to keep the barrel pointed lower. It's a one way trip though - you can't change back up after you do that, so be sure you know what bullet weight you want to stay with. Bullet dwell time in the barrel has very little effect on point of impact, it's about forces acting in two directions. Hope this helps, Shadow Catcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 What this all boils down to is that you have to shoot YOUR loads in YOUR gun YOURSELF to determine point of impact. When you have shot enough of them to be sure what that point of impact is, then you can think about adjusting your sights, your loads or your shooting technique to bring the point of impact to the point of aim. Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam slocum Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hey Sam, just apply this formula. H x D x BS = bullet drop H = Hogwash D = drivel BS = well I think you know what that means Hey when are you, Sun and Wyatt gonna shoot with the Hogwash, I mean the Hotdog posse again. I miss you man!!! Nobody told me there was gonna be math... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Bullet dwell time in the barrel has very little effect on point of impact, it's about forces acting in two directions. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 F = M x A Force = Mass times Acceleration. It's just that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 And don't forget about sight correction formula......Remember to keep all measurements in the same units. (i.e. Inches) Amount of Error (High or Low POI) x Distance Between Front and Rear Sight ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = Sight Correction Needed Distance to Target For example: 2" Low x 6.875" Sight Radius / 288" (8 yds) = approx .048" removed from front sight or sight picture compensation to raise POI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pot SASS#55659 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Good job Sam! Got em goin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 lets see low horse power, slow speeds more horse power faster posibilities horse power to weight ratio ooops wrong place LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Good job Sam! Got em goin Ah ben thinkin da same thing CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 After a great deal of study on this subject and a careful review of the comments, I think I have come up with the real answer - Barrel Fatigue!. As it turns out, I had shot the rifle in an NCOWS match a couple of weeks age and they had the targets set way out to 20 or 25 yards. This caused excess strain on the barrel which caused it to sag and thus shoot low. I believe this to be a more common problem than generally recognized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I am in the camp that says go out and shoot a lot from various distances. You will figure out what works for you and will have fun doing it. When I am shooting I can't think fast enough to make a conscious decision. I just rely on experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 And then there is also the factor of the shooter anticipating the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 If ya throw you hand just right while you are shooting. you can also make it curve. I know you can. Seen it in a movie. I saw this happen in Arkansas a week or two ago. I know Dirty Dan pulled the triger on his rifle as he was swinging to the target and I saw the bullet curve on in and hit the long range target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chance Ramsay Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 What realy is C.S.+ B.S.= I didn't load my pistols so when I shoot them all shots look low. Chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pot SASS#55659 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Sam, in your studies you identified barrel fatigue and the ensuing barrel sag which resulted in low shots. I've hear some of the older shooters mention barrel droop. Would you think that is the same as the sag you mention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 If ya use Cialis when ya clean them, they'll shoot straight for up to 4 hrs........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 If they shoot straight for more than 4 hours, call a gunsmith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 If they shoot straight for more than 4 hours, call a gunsmith! Now that is funny right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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