Middlefork Bob, SASS #53945 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I am thinking about getting back into the BP side of the game. I used to shoot 44-40's and absolutely loved them. However growing up my dad always kept a colt 38-40 for home protection and he liked the concept of a smaller bullet and more powder but he never shot that gun that I can remember. My questions is would 38-40 be more, less, or equal recoil to the 44-40?? I know I would be going from a 200grn bullet in the 44 to a 180grn bullet in the 40. Would that mean the 40 would have that much more powder to increase the recoil noticeably? If recoil was equal I would probably go with the 38-40 just for nostalgia sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sabre Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 No worries, Mate. The 38-40 achieves the lower bullet weight with a necked down case, not by shallower seating or otherwise increasing powder capacity. Both cases were designed for 40 grains of powder (in original folded head cases). Same charge with lighter and reduced diameter slug would yield somewhat greater MV. I have no chronograph data, but my bet is on similar recoil. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Cornelius Gilliam, SASS#5875TG Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I shoot 38-40's with BP for almost every match I attend. I routinely neck down 44-40 cases to make 38-40 cases (easier and cheaper to find). Since powder charge weight/volume is the same, the only difference is the slightly reduced bullet weight (180gr vs 200gr) meaning the 38-40 will have slightly less recoil. In real use, they are nearly identical with a slight advantage for the 38-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Have you ever shot a .40 S&W? The original loadings for the .40 S&W duplicates the .38-40, right down to bullet diameter, weight, and muzzle velocity (from a 5-in. barrel???). The only difference was the use of a rimless semi-auto case at higher pressures rather than the larger, lower-pressure case of the .38 WCF round. The .44-40 will have a slightly heavier felt recoil than its .40 (.38) caliber cousin due to the heavier bullet. Significantly heavier? I doubt you can tell the difference, but you might. Everyone's perception and tolerance to recoil is very subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Silverfinger, SASS#3444 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 .....Occasionally, I shoot "Classic Cowboy" using 38/40 in both rifle and handguns - makes things a bit more simple as far as handloading. You may be able to achieve less recoil in the revolvers by using the lighter-weight bullets made for the .40 S&W (140 grains or so),and a modified powder charge. This will work in the revolvers, but may not feed in your rifle. Most 38/40 rifles will only reliably feed the 180 grain round-nosed-flat-point bullet they were designed for. It's a great caliber - good luck! FWIW, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I've got a friend who has had good luck with the 140 TC 40/10mm bullet in his 1873 and pistols in 38-40. Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I shoot 38-40's with BP for almost every match I attend. I routinely neck down 44-40 cases to make 38-40 cases (easier and cheaper to find). Since powder charge weight/volume is the same, the only difference is the slightly reduced bullet weight (180gr vs 200gr) meaning the 38-40 will have slightly less recoil. In real use, they are nearly identical with a slight advantage for the 38-40. How do you neck down a .44-40 to a .38-40??? Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Ziggy SASS 76870 Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Most of the notations for these cartridges (44-40, 45-70, 45-55, etc...) start with the bullet caliber, followed by the BP capacity for a full case. The "38-40" is different because the bullet size is 40 caliber (.401 diameter) & is preceeded by the powder capacity. The 38-40 cartridge can be used for WB too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 How do you neck down a .44-40 to a .38-40??? Rye Ummm... run it through a .38-40 sizer die. Same case, just neck it down. I love the caliber! I've got at least seven .38-40 rifles and three .38-40 Vaqueros. About five years ago, Sportsman's Warehouse carried Winchester .38-40 brass and discontinued it, so I called the warehouse and talked them into sending all the remaining stock to my store where I bought it all at nine dollars and change per bag. It's one caliber I shoot that I will never, ever run out of brass for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Okay makes sense...thanks, Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Howdy Despite what everybody says, the powder capacity of 44-40 brass and 38-40 brass are not the same. I've been loading 44-40 with Black Powder for a bazillion years, so when I started loading 38-40 this year for a Winchester Model 1873 made in 1887 I thought it would be a snap. Showed up at a match with the old rifle and it jammed on me while trying to lever in the first round. At the unloading table I had a heck of a time unloading the gun. I used my 44-40 Henry for the rest of the match. Just before lunch I tried running two rounds through the old girl and she bound up again, so I put her in my cart and finished the match with my Henry. I was stumped because I had already tested the gun out at the range and she worked fine. When I got the gun home, and started looking into what was wrong, I discovered that despite what everybody says, 38-40 and 44-40 have slightly different powder capacities. Without breaking the Wire rules on giving exact loading data, just let me say that my standard 44-40 load puts in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it compresses the powder by about 1/16". But it turns out that the 38-40 case, because of its slightly narrower neck diameter, has slightly less case capacity. Duh! Putting the 44-40 charge in caused the powder to sit just high enough in the 38-40 case that when the bullet was seated, it was compressing the powder a heck of a lot more than 1/16". So much more that the dead soft, pure lead bullets I was using were deformed as they tried to compress the powder. Turns out my .401 bullets were being squashed to about .410. No way they would seat all the way, they would not chamber the last 1/8", and that was preventing the bolt from closing all the way. The bullets I had used for my first outing at the range were a different design, so they had not mashed out enough to cause a problem. Here is a photo that shows, left to right, my 45 Colt load, 44-40, and 38-40. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/45colt44-4038-40_zps53d7a298.jpg This next photo shows one of my 38-40s with the squashed and expanded bullet on the left, and on the right is a round that has not been squashed because I throttled back just a hair on the amount of powder. Got the compression back to about 1/16". Yeah, I should have noticed how badly the bullets were misshapen, and yeah, I should have chambered some. That's what happens when you load up 150 rounds the night before a match. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/38-40goodandbad_zpsa6e35ecc.jpg The other thing to bear in mind is, 38-40s made by Starline and by WInchester are quite different. In this photo, the case on the left is a Winchester, the case on the right is a Starline. The case in the middle is a Winchester that has been fired in my WInchester. Notice how much further back the 'bottleneck' is set on the Winchester case as compared to the Starline case. That one will have even less case capacity than the Starline case. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/38-40win38-40win38-40starline_zps6fd8e696.jpg So if you are loading Smokeless, none of this matters at all. But if you are loading Black Powder, and are shooting dead soft, lead bullets, be aware that the case capacity of 38-40 is slightly less than the case capacity of 44-40 and may cause problems if the same powder charge is used. Be sure not to over compress the powder. Particularly with an old gun with a tight chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 I prefer da .38-40 0ver the .44-40 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, If you are going for the bottle-neck look ,,, get one that looks like a real one .... It's less likely to get crushed while loading ,,,,,,, or when stepped on .... And Not as common ,,,,,,,,,,,,, I like different .... Both are at their best when loaded with Black Powder .... I find the .38-40 a little easyer to use Smokeless Powder in .... Sides my Grandad never owned a .44-40 ,,,,,,,,,,,,, but he did own .38-40s.... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Most of the notations for these cartridges (44-40, 45-70, 45-55, etc...) start with the bullet caliber, followed by the BP capacity for a full case. The "38-40" is different because the bullet size is 40 caliber (.401 diameter) & is preceded by the powder capacity. The 38-40 cartridge can be used for WB too. Winchester came out with the 44 WCF (44-40) first. When they developed the .38 WCF (38-40) they called it that instead of the 40-40 to avoid confusion of the 2 different cartridges. It's never been a backwards number cartridge. Urban legend stuff. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog McGee Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Love my 38-40's (38WCF). A blast when shooting BP. LOTS of BOOM,FLAME and SMOKE!!!!!!!!!!! What more could you ask for!!! Thanks for the info Driftwood, whose bullet are you using? Looks great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I load original Winnies with .32WCF and .38WCF (.32-20 and .38-40). I have shot the .44WCF (.44-40) though not as much as some cowboys. I would likely never buy a .44WCF (unless it was a great deal) since it is ballistically so close in bullet weight, velocity and power to the .38WCFs that I already own. One caution with the .44WCF is that the original guns seem to shoot .430-.431" bullets and the more modern guns are made for the more common .427-.428" bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Thanks for the info Driftwood, whose bullet are you using? Looks great! The Big Lube 190 grain DD38-40. http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=ab4ea15a-a002-435f-a5a4-f9e9035a0082 One caution with the .44WCF is that the original guns seem to shoot .430-.431" bullets and the more modern guns are made for the more common .427-.428" bullets. Actually, it is the other way around. The Nineteenth Century standard for 44-40 was .427. I have two antique lever guns chambered for 44-40, a Winchester Model 1892 made in1894 and a Marlin Model 1894 made in 1895. Both barrels slug out at .427. Modern gun makers tend to use the same .429 barrels that they use for 44 Mag and 44 Special because it means they have less barrel sizes to have to stock. Most 44-40s coming out of Uberti these days have .429 barrels, including my Uberti 1860 Henry that I bought new a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Great info Driftwood, I just picked up a Colt in 38WCF, a 3rd gen and I'll be attempting to reload this cartridge. Thanks, Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middlefork Bob, SASS #53945 Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 I will concur the 44-40's i used to shoot all slugged a .429 Uberti 73 rifle and Great Western II revolvers. By the way I just took the plunge on a 73 Uberti rifle in 38-40 and ordered a pair of Cimarron model P's in 38-40. It will be fun to be back on the darkside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Howdy Driftwood, That link may not work on all computers. To get to the Big Lube 38-40 bullet detail page you need to paste www.biglube.com in your browser and click on the bullet mold line to get the mold menu, then click on the 38-40 or any of the mold designs on the menu to see the detail pages. FWIW, I shoot the 38-40 with Big Lube bullets over about enough FFFg Schuetzen to compress the powder 1/16". Shoots great, long and accurate. DD-MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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