Shooting Bull Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm going to piggy back off Creeker's thread in hopes of stimulating more conversation on how the Eldorado Cowboys can earn your business. First off, I want to eliminate EOT and Winter Range. I've never shot EOT but have been to Winter Range twice. It is far and away the best match I've ever been to for a variety of reasons but, it's also the National Championship. That's the reason I'm eliminating those two from this conversation. You HAVE to go to those matches if you want to be a National or World Champion. That brings me to Bordertown. Nobody HAS to go to Bordertown but, they sure do. That match booked solid eight days from when the applications were made available, why? It's not like Tombstone is the easiest location in the world to get to. So there has to be something else, what? Creeker and I have puzzled over this question for a while. Eldorado, the Nevada State Championship, is held the weekend after Bordertown and we figure anybody who didn't make it into that shoot could easily come to ours IF we offer the same sort of attraction they do. So, what is it? If you ask folks who have shoot Eldorado I'll bet my next paycheck that they'll tell you we're incredibly organized, we have fast fun stages, great banquet and awards (Disregarding Creeker's stand-up routine ) one of the easiest ranges to get to in the country and I doubt I need to tell you what attractions are a stone's throw away in Las Vegas. So there you have it, what will it take for us to get you to come shoot with us? (Note: telling Creeker and/or I to stay home isn't an option. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I would probably attend every year if you moved it 1500 miles ESE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Well, there is the fact that you and creeker would be there... For me, I look at distance, cost, and weather. Too far, too expensive a trip, or too hot and I won't consider it. For the record I'd posse with you boys any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 More Arizona & New Mexico Shooters mightl attend the Nevada event if you give more time between BT & your event. One Week is kinda short between two excellent events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 People go to Bordertown with ONE primary objective. To shoot flat out as fast as possible at CLOSE targets. It's fun, but not something that many people want to do at every match. However, in the overall scheme of things and the current state of SASS affairs, close and fast with few misses will always win out over slow and far with a lot of misses in shooter enthusiasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 With all due respect, not only is the match a good one but, it's in Tombstone. Nevada doesn't hold the same allure. I missed out on signing up two years in a row. But I'm going this year come hell or high water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 More Arizona & New Mexico Shooters mightl attend the Nevada event if you give more time between BT & your event. One Week is kinda short between two excellent events. But those aren't the folks I'm trying to attract. (Well, that's not entirely true. ) I'm looking more toward people who have the time and money to go to Bordertown but didn't get their applications in fast enough. For those folks, Eldorado is the PERFECT match. As Larson said, and I've heard other folks with the same opinion, Bordertown is a flat out drag race. While we don't claim to have targets quite as close as BT, ask anyone who's shot our matches and they'll tell you we certinly don't like walking very far to place our targets. We're normally on the ragged edge of the SASS recommended minimums as far as targets distances are concerned, sometimes even closer. Don't quote me on the exact number but I think we recently had our normal Saturday and Sunday monthly matches where we had a combined 40% clean shooters. And that's using some stages that will be in Eldorado 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I want to go. But it is always the week before our Regional. Don't give me much time to get back for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Well heck Philly, ya gonna just sit here and jaw about it, or ya gonna post a link to where we can find out about yer match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 Well heck Philly, ya gonna just sit here and jaw about it, or ya gonna post a link to where we can find out about yer match? Hey, talking is what I do for a living. http://www.eldoradocowboys.com/shoots/eldorado2013/ec2013.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm going to piggy back off Creeker's thread in hopes of stimulating more conversation on how the Eldorado Cowboys can earn your business. First off, I want to eliminate EOT and Winter Range. I've never shot EOT but have been to Winter Range twice. It is far and away the best match I've ever been to for a variety of reasons but, it's also the National Championship. That's the reason I'm eliminating those two from this conversation. You HAVE to go to those matches if you want to be a National or World Champion. That brings me to Bordertown. Nobody HAS to go to Bordertown but, they sure do. That match booked solid eight days from when the applications were made available, why? It's not like Tombstone is the easiest location in the world to get to. So there has to be something else, what? Creeker and I have puzzled over this question for a while. Eldorado, the Nevada State Championship, is held the weekend after Bordertown and we figure anybody who didn't make it into that shoot could easily come to ours IF we offer the same sort of attraction they do. So, what is it? If you ask folks who have shoot Eldorado I'll bet my next paycheck that they'll tell you we're incredibly organized, we have fast fun stages, great banquet and awards (Disregarding Creeker's stand-up routine ) one of the easiest ranges to get to in the country and I doubt I need to tell you what attractions are a stone's throw away in Las Vegas. So there you have it, what will it take for us to get you to come shoot with us? (Note: telling Creeker and/or I to stay home isn't an option. ) Why is Bordertown so popular? First it really is the really really big and really really really close targets. Many shoots try to duplicate it but none do. Second Bordertown has stages that fit the customer profile. If you look at the attendees you find that allmost half are over 60 years old. So no difficult sequence, no difficult targets, few if any stand and deliver stages but close shooting positions, i.e. no track meets, This years EOT got rave reviews for the stages. Remember the 2013 EOT range master was on the Bordertown board forever and is still the TG for Bordertown. I am not convienced the location matters that much because when it was held in Tucson it was just as popular. Personally I liked Tucson better but range issues required a change and it is still good. Edit: Just to make sure I am clear, we have really enjoyed shooting Eldorado over the years, but the number of major matches we shoot decines as we get older. combined with health issues at time of Eldorado. Eldorado continues to be one of the best State matches in the western US (our only experience base). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 For myself, if I can drive to the shoot in 6-8 hours (making it back Sunday in time to get to work on Monday), I'll consider going. From Albuquerque, you guys are about 6 hours too far. The tyranny of the geography of the sparsely settled West. Bordertown draws from all of Az (being their state shoot), Cali, and a little from NM and other border states. Your location could draw from Cali and Phoenix, but not much more for out of state, according to my "in my own bed by 10 PM" rule. (Yeah, one of these days I'll be retired - but not yet). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Eldorado (Nevada State Championship) is the FIRST weekend in October. Bordertown (Arizona State Championship) is the FORTH weekend of October These shoots are not back to back, nor is Bordertown the weekend before as stated in the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 Eldorado (Nevada State Championship) is the FIRST weekend in October. Bordertown (Arizona State Championship) is the FORTH weekend of October These shoots are not back to back, nor is Bordertown the weekend before as stated in the original post. Oops, looked at the calendar upside down. The original premis still applies though. For folks who have the time and $$$ to shoot Bordertown but didn't get their applications in fast enough, we want you to think about joining us for some world class cowboy action fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Philly, it is tempting.... distance wise, it's about 12 hours for me, doable in one day but I'm more comfortable keeping it around 8 hours driving a day... Weather wise, first week of October looks to be highs in the mid to upper 80s, still too hot for me, but doable.... Cost wise is where I'm having trouble this year. Typically I do one out of town match a year, and this year I've already done two, and have another one in September that I most likely will do. Talk about over budget This will hopefully be my daughters last year in college, so after that hopefully I'll be able to afford to travel to shoots a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Dancer, SASS #70118L Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Windy and I shot Eldorado for the first time last year and we were some of the first to sign up for 2013. I didn't even shoot it that well - ok, that's an understatement. I could have shot it better withOUT those blinders on! Folks, Eldorado is a GREAT match! Besides being well organized with focus on making it as fun as possible for the shooter, they have their awards ceremony AND banquet on Saturday night after the last day of shooting so anyone who needs to make it home for work on Mon has all of Sunday to get there! And lemme tell ya, that is one heck of a banquet! I don't recall having food that well done at recent weddings we've attended. The stages are easy, close, fast and FUN to shoot! Side matches were well run and included a shooting gallery to rival any! We've been told for years to get over to NV to shoot Eldorado and we finally made it. We're sold! Creeker - just keep doin' what you're doin' 'cause it's got us hooked! I think comparing shoots is tough business because there are so many variables - location, time of year, etc. and then there's marketing, word of mouth, stuff like that. Keep writing articles like the one written last year - had we not been signed up already the article alone would have been motivation enough. Can't wait to see all of you there! Now go get the app, write the check and get it in...then get yer butts over to NV the 1st week in October. P.S. AND ... in this economy, this match gives you more bang for your buck than most. Check it out! Sassy Dancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Just as an add on that hasn't been mentioned. Hotels rates are in the .40.00 - 50.00 per night range. Food is dirt cheap and plentyful Large amount of dry camping on the range for small fee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkeep Casey Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 In my "shooting" neck of the woods it seems like the shooting season really gets bumped up close together for the good weather of spring and fall. This creates a number of situations that require me to shoot one match or another match because the matches are just a week apart. My employer's generosity for time off only goes so far when I stack them too close together. Personally I have never traveled with guns via airplane, but it seems like Vegas would be an easy destination. Cheap flights, cheap hotels, and great night life! A great match would just be icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt Walker 45 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 As was stated earlier it's Tombstone, most of the time you can walk to downtown and back to your room. The town business people give shooters a break on items , you dress cowboy in town and blend in. The shoot location is great and the owners are happy to have us there, if it went back to Tucson I would stop going, the wives love to go so they can wonder the shops, go to benson too shop also. You run into the people in town that you are shooting with and can party with them and have a good time. These are just some of the reasons I like to go, if I get the chance over the next couple of years I will try the Nevada shoot to see how good it is too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I've shot Bordertown every year except one from it's beginning. A Great match. I shot El Dorado from 2003 to 2007 and again it is a Great match. The main reason that I stopped shooting El Dorado had nothing to do with the match or the people as the venue is excellent, the organizers do a great job and the stages and props are really fine. I stopped because the folks that I used to travel with stopped shooting. I need to get off my butt and get up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Bordertown; Ain't nothing like it. Simple as that. I'm not sure I'd want to shoot a match like that EVERY weekend, but for the one weekend a year that I can do it, I flat love it. It draws GREAT shooters from all over, so it's not just the numbers, but the quality. Like EoT this year, you always have the sense that the staff is REALLY trying to make sure that everyone has a good time. The trophies are terrific. then there's that match. It turns normal shooters into Supermen, and Supermen into gods. If you miss or "P" on a stage, you did it to you. It's a no-holds-barred, sit-down-shut-up-and-hold-on, adrenaline packed drag race, and it's a hoot. Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Philly, I shot Bordertown for the first time last year, I loved it. I was chomping at the bit for apps this year because it was the best match I have been to yet. I have heard Eldarado is amazing, and I have decided that I will shoot it in 2014 even if it means skipping BT. The problem for my wife and I is simply time and money. Between match fees, food, Hotel, "tourist" expenses, gas and other misc. expenses BT cost me over a grand last year, and I live in AZ..... I just can't afford to do that 2 in that short of a time period. Having shot with you and Creeker I know you guys put on a good match and believe Eldarado has potential to be amazing. That is why I am willing to gamble missing BT to try it next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Not going to talk about Bordertown --- it is the greatest and I love it. But, I have shot Eldorado a couple times. GREAT MATCH! I have been very impressed by what they provide for the relatively small entrance fee. It is simply the best value for a shooting match that I have been to. Great stages and props, free Food, awards, banquet, they even had an Ice cream truck drive up to the match and told everyone to just help yourself. now, that is really cool. Not sure why I don't go to Eldorado every year. Seems like the fall is really busy and I just don't travel to shoots as much as I used to when I shot with my son. I know that maybe didn't help you much But, one thing that might help --- there is a club in California that has gotten my email address and frequently sends me emails -- all of a positive nature talking about the club's upcoming shoot and some local jesting at local jesters. I have actually thought about going over there just to see and shoot with them. I think the lesson is: in marketing, politely keep it in their face -- if they see it often enough, they might buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I've shot EOT, props were ok, weather at the time was ok, walk from parking lot was long, waited all day to shoot 4 shages, expensive, took all week while motel bills piled up, the 20 possee members were great but herded thru like cattle getting their vacination. Oh ya, I knew right off there were way to mannnnny shooters much better than me and I was there for fodder. Ditto with WR, but weather was absolutely horrible and there was, hmmmm, hanky panky with the scoring. Shot Elderado, it was no better, no worst than a monthly,,,, about the same, but the banquet was the best I've attended. All were hundreds of miles away. As far as shooting and stages!!1 ,,,, about every local match matches the big matches I've attended. BTW, I didn't have to go far or spend very much money this year for Savage Sam to hand me my head back to me. He is awesome and a gentlemen. I had a wonderful time with the Germans as well, Really, past your immediate posse members, you really don't get to socialize with the other hundreds of pards. Now, I've notice special possess where they have requested each other...hmmmmm, they see each other every month, why would they group up at the big matches? I know. There is a game within the game. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 ...Ditto with WR, but weather was absolutely horrible and there was, hmmmm, hanky panky with the scoring... Blastmaster I'd appreciate it if you would explain this. I've headed scoring WR for the past five years. My crew is EXCELLENT and In those 5 years, I know of NO uncorrected errors. (we have averaged 2 errors per year out of some 60000 keystrokes. ) This last year there were 2 as well. Both corrected prior to the awards. Both caused by the posse scorekeepers not following the procedure outlined in the score book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt Walker 45 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 There is nothing that match directors can do about weather, any place you travel and stay is going to cost money for room and food. I plan on spending money to shoot out of town, it is the cost of any event you go to out of town. I go to shoot and have fun if I place that's just icing on the cake, I started shooting SASS for fun and I still look at it that way, if winning is the only way you have fun I think you are missing out, this is just my opinion as im not trying to cause hard feeling. I have never heard of any scoring "problems" not caused by posse members at any major match in the dozen or so years I have been shooting SASS. To me if I'm shooting I'm having fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chaps, SASS #5925 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Well.I USED to go to Stampede regularly in Jean, NV. How's that compare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chance Derringer, SASS #19985 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I've shot Bordertown at both Tucson & Tombstone and for me, Tombstone is the best location. The low priced hotel rooms are only 10 minutes from the range. I get to haunt the streets of Tombstone at night:-) Here is my top ten list of why I like Bordertown: 1. It's in Tombstone 2. The targets are BIG & close 3. I can shoot as fast as possible 4. I don't miss many targets 5. It's in Tombstone 6. It's a total time match 7. The town likes having us there 8. It is very well organized 9. No procedural traps 10. IT'S IN TOMBSTONE!!! PS. The Derringer Gang always watches the movie "Tombstone" before a big match:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 ...Ditto with WR, but weather was absolutely horrible and there was, hmmmm, hanky panky with the scoring... Blastmaster I'd appreciate it if you would explain this. I've headed scoring WR for the past five years. My crew is EXCELLENT and In those 5 years, I know of NO uncorrected errors. (we have averaged 2 errors per year out of some 60000 keystrokes. ) This last year there were 2 as well. Both corrected prior to the awards. Both caused by the posse scorekeepers not following the procedure outlined in the score book Which year was the flood and they threw out several stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Which year was the flood and they threw out several stages? Not exactly Hanky Panky when some Posse Marshalls refused to allow their shooters to engage certain stages due to unsafe conditions due to the unbelievable down pour, really deep (over knee high boots) standing water and mud, and almost freezing temps making even walking nearly impossible much less shooting. I managed to shoot all 12 stages and got sick as hell as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Not exactly Hanky Panky when some Posse Marshalls refused to allow their shooters to engage certain stages due to unsafe conditions due to the unbelievable down pour, really deep (over knee high boots) standing water and mud, and almost freezing temps making even walking nearly impossible much less shooting. I managed to shoot all 12 stages and got sick as hell as a result. I shot all 12 stages. Our PM abandon ship and didn't show on last day, or was that day two? Wet to the bone, cold and all that. The few of us left cowboyed up and did the best we could. They should have scored it as is,,, all twelve stages. If you didn't shoot, you got whatever score/time that would be.. Not cherry picked which stage to count. That's all that I asked but didn't get. Didn't blame the match because of the weather but how it was scored.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I shot all 12 stages. Our PM abandon ship and didn't show on last day, or was that day two? Wet to the bone, cold and all that. The few of us left cowboyed up and did the best we could. They should have scored it as is,,, all twelve stages. If you didn't shoot, you got whatever score/time that would be.. Not cherry picked which stage to count. That's all that I asked but didn't get. Didn't blame the match because of the weather but how it was scored.. I believe you are referring to 2006. Seven years ago. I shot that match. That's not a scoring decision. That's a condition decision. No one wanted to throw out any stages but clearly safety had to come first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I am going to try to make Eldorado this year, and may get a group of "Cowboys" together to come with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Well.I USED to go to Stampede regularly in Jean, NV. How's that compare? Stampede in Jean was a long time ago, there were a lot fewer annual shoots and Cowboy Action Shooting has changed since then. I don't know that the two are/ were ever comparable. But I can tell you what Eldorado is. Eldorado is about big, close targets and creative stages that while easy to navigate, are not completely simplistic or repetitive. Eldorado is about a full slate of side matches that are FREE to shoot - not about collecting a bunch of additional fees. Eldorado is about providing a professionally catered on range lunch after the Main Match shooting on Friday. Eldorado is about nice awards for the winners, while never forgetting that some will not win and they have to have fun too. Eldorado is about a "Formal" awards banquet at the Boulder City Country Club with AC, adult libations, carpeted floors and prime rib dinners. Most importantly - Eldorado is about the attendees. From the moment the steel is put away after the Top 20 shoot off on Sunday - our focus is on how do we do it better next year? Thats what Eldorado is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 I am going to try to make Eldorado this year, and may get a group of "Cowboys" together to come with me. Now THAT would be a hoot. I guarantee that you'll have as much fun shooting with us as I always have shooting with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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