Flattest shooting lever gun

[Smoked Fish , SASS # 52621]

What is the flattest shooting lever gun/caliber shooting cast bullets ?

 

I would "assume" the 45/70 will hang in there better than anything else.

 

So what about a 45/120 ? Do you get anything more out of the extra case length ?

I would wonder if perhaps you maybe get less. I know it depends on the strength of the action per maker and model [assume lever here for all] .

 

What about the 50-70/90/140 bunch ? Perhaps the lever action limits the pressure and the cast bullet limits the speed, so there would be no gain with these heavier bullets and extra room for powder.

 

Any one doing any gong shooting with a lever gun?

I saw on a video a guy with the name of Wind was shooting a Marlin 38-55 and hitting a gong at 800 yards. Crazy. The wind would play havic with the bullet, but on a calm day that shooting was impressive.

 

I am suspicious that the 45/70 will do just about as good as anything, but wanted to ask for other opinions.

There must also be a barrel length [24,26,30,32] that is optimum for the long range shooting. Beyond some length you really do not get anything. Any thoughts ?

 

Thanks for answering my other questions and for any info on this also.

Smoked Fish.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'd love to see a Lever Gun in 45-120

 

...and I'm not aware of the belief that the 45-70 is a "Flat Shooting" caliber.

 

Maybe...219 zipper...218Bee...hmmm...

[Widder, SASS #59054]

for information such as this, I would check out some reloading manuals.

 

some of them carry info like sight in distance and rise and fall of different bullet weights/velocity that is acheived during flight.

 

Some bullet weights at certain velocities in certain calibers will give you minimal rise/fall at a particular distance, which would be considered 'flat shooting'.

 

But change the distance and that same bullet might fall right off the map.

 

 

..........Widder

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

All bullets fall at the same speed.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

There is some physics involved in the answer. Shot from a level axis, all bullets fall at the same speed. Velocity determines how far the bullet travels during that fall time. There are a bunch of effects, lift over drag ballistic coefficient, etc. Flattest shooting lever rifle is probably a .22 Magnum. But for a definitive answer, you'd have to go to a comprehensive ballistics table.

 

Coffinmaker

 

PS: A .45 anything with lead bullets has the trajectory of a rainbow. You'd also have t specify at what distance.

[Big Jake1001]

In your question about Flattest shooting caliber in a Lever Gun, Winchester 1894 shooting a .25-35 caliber bullet. Think 30-30 necked down to a .25 cal.

.45-70 shoots like a Rainbow compared to even a Win 30-30. Don't get me wrong, but 45-70 are very accurate and can travel quite well buckin' the wind,

but at 1,000 yards might go 16 feet above line of sight before falling into the target.

A .22 Long Rifle will go up and down 4 inches at 100 yards. A .22 Mag will go .7 1/0ths of an inch at 100 yards.

Jake

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Savage 99 in 22-250 of course. No it doesn't have a hammer but ole Arthur was way ahead of his time

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Likely be the thirty-thirty for practical use on game.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Am I wrong in assuming cowboy guns and calibers?

If so, my picks are 38-55 or 38-56 or 40-65. Even the 30-30. I'd personally like a Marlin 1895 in 40-65.

But 45-70 will do the trick.

There's a lot more to it than to finding something that is "flat shooting". What bullets will stabilize well for given twist rates and a plethora of other details culminate to accurate, consistent shooting particularly when going 45 caliber and above and trying to reach the magical 1000 yard range.

Velocity isn't always your friend. Look at ballistics charts and see what happens as far as wind drift as velocity increases. What is good for the hunter and what is good for the long range target shooter aren't always the same. Range time with whatever gun is your greatest ally.

Hopefully John Boy will chime in.

[largo casey #19191]

How about the old 32/20 Largo Casey

[Three Foot Johnson]

I'd love to see a Lever Gun in 45-120

My Marlin .45-120 Trapper

 

 

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

32/40

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

32/40

 

Bingo! The caliber of choice for Schutzen!

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

If you are talking big bores the flat shooting guns of the day were the express rifles. Winchester did 45/110 and 50/110. This allowed for more powder but were usually loaded with a small bullet in the 300 or less range. The extra powder and smaller bullet shot flatter but were generally considered short range ( under 200yds or so).

If you are talking pistol cal leverguns the fav cal for the NRA leveraction Silhouette game is the 357m and 32-20. Loaded hot these two can shoot all 4 positions with little or no sight changes.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

The man said ...... WITH CAST BULLETS

 

Better figure velocity at about 2000 fps without gas checks. Not a lot more with them and usually less accuracy.

A 30-30 with a 150 to 170 gr bullet will serve you well.

[Snakebite]

Both the 33 WCF in a a 1886, and the 348 in a model 71 (86) using a Hard cast bullet will shoot flatter than any of the pre-1900 cartridges except for the one that would win this contest, which is the:

 

1895 Winchester in 30.06 caliber. I have loaded for them with Hard cast bullets for many years, and Any one of them will out shoot (flatter) ANY of the old BP express rifle cartridges.

 

 

Snakebite

[Cowboy Junky]

All bullets fall at the same speed.

Yep so it comes down to how far they can go in that same amount of time........or what is know as velocity.

[Smoked Fish , SASS # 52621]

Thanks for the many replies.

My context for this thread was gong shooting. I see I did not make that clear.

 

I know gong shooting is done [mostly] by the Sharps type rifle with a {falling block type} single shot action.

One is not going to compete with a Sharps type rifles using a lever action - or so I assume. [levers are less strong action]

I am wondering what caliber/gun[lever action] barrel length is doing the best for long range shooting.

I have assumed that , whatever caliber, the bullet would be maximized for long range shooting.

 

The distance would be from approx. 200 yrds to 1000 yrds. Probably a buffalo at 1000 yards.

I did not know that non gas checked bullets are possibly/porabably more accurate at distances than gas checked. Interesting.

I am thinking bigger calibers starting from the 30-30.

 

Does that clear the question at all?

Smoked Fish

[Snakebite]

I'm not convinced that non-gas checked bullets are more accurate than gas checked bullets. I've shot thousands of them. You can move them much faster. I've shot many of them at 1,000 yds, and had good results doing it. If you are playing a particular game/event, then just spell it out and folks can help you. Few matches that I have seen use both 200 yds and 1000 yds. 200 yds is not Long Range shooting. I don't know anyone who shoots a Lever gun at 1000 yds either. Just exactly what are you wanting to do?

 

Snakebite

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, if you are interested in long range rifle matches, here's a good place to start researching.

 

http://the_montanan.tripod.com/

 

You are making the common assumption that a flat shooting rifle will be the most suitable for long range target shooting. Rarely do the two equate to the same rifle and cartridge.

 

A heavy bullet is often used in long range shooting, as it can be more accurate at long range. Falling blocks, like the great Winchester 1885 Hi-wall rifles are sometimes the most accurate, loaded with something like 45-70 or 45-90 cartridges.

 

Mike Venturino's books on black powder rifle shooting are good references, too.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Long range shooting. Results are based on matching the bullet weight and shape to the rifles barrel characteristics.

 

If a 30-30 170 grain bullet and a 45-70 500 grain bullet have the same Ballistic Coefficient (drag or air friction) and muzzle exit velocity, the bullet drop will be the the same at the same distances.

 

Example:

30-30 170 gr with .318BC at 1370'/sec and a

45-70 405 gr with .318BC at 1370'/sec

will both have a drop of 134.7 feet at 1000 yards. Yes, the drop is in feet. . . (1616.7 inches)

 

Another issue I do not hear many talk about is the trajectory change when the bullet slows down and passes below the sound barrier.

 

Bullet flight is fairly flat while supersonic but the trajectory falls of dramatically once subsonic.

 

Here is a ballistic calculator that breaks the chart down including the sound barrier break.

 

These two bullets that I use as an example have the same flight characteristics. The difference is the wind penetration and the remaining energy when it reaches it's target..what ever the distance.

30-30 energy = 203ft.lbf @ 1000yd

45-70 energy = 483ft.lbf @ 1000yds

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

All bullets fall at the same speed.

Some just "slide sideways" a lot farther and faster than others while they are dropping.

 

Meaning that at a given target distance, faster slugs of course have less drop than slower ones.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Trailrider #896]

The so-called "Express Rifles" of the BP era utilized relatively light bullets at the maximum velocities attainable with BP. To get the most from them, the twist of the rifling was generally slowed fairly drastically, leaving them unsuitable for heavier bullets. As an example: the .45-90 WCF was loaded with a 300 gr. bullet, and the twist was 1-in-32", as opposed to the .45-70-405 or 500, which had a twist of 1-in-22". The difference was in the muzzle velocity, which was around 1425 ft/sec for the 300 grain .45-90, versus around 1315 for the 405 gr .45-70 slug. The problem is that the heavier bullets (per cross section, or higher sectional density) retain their velocities better at longer ranges, and are less affected by crosswinds. Think a tennis ball versus a badminton bird.

 

When you change to smokeless powder, the heavier bullet still maintains its velocity at longer ranges, but, of course, you can get higher velocites in the same size case (assuming safe pressures are maintained). When I shot .33 WCF with 200 grain bullets and a muzzle velocity of about 2200 ft/sec, I was outclassing .30-30-170's at 200 meters. Hitting those turkeys at 150 meters was still problematic for me, but pigs at 100 and chickens at 50 was NO problem. Those jacketed softpoints would literally back the chickens off the concrete!

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I shoot a 45-90 C Sharps 1885 out to 1200 yards pretty regularly. Others shoot a variety of cartridges from 40-65 to 45-110 with equal success. I have never seen anyone shoot a lever gun at that range. Certainly, the cartridges are capable of it. I think the design of the stock and lighter weight of the rifle would make it pretty brutal to shoot.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Savage 99 in 22-250 of course. No it doesn't have a hammer but ole Arthur was way ahead of his time.

Same rifle in .250-3000 (.250. Savage) would be my choice. Wish I still had mine.

[Middlefork Bob, SASS #53945]

With cast bullets I think I could open a can of you know what on anybody at 200 yards with my Marlin 336 in 32 special.

[John Boy]

 

What is the flattest shooting lever gun/caliber shooting cast bullets ?

Smoked Fish, are you asking to just ask or do you have a specific purpose for an answer such as Cowboy - just having fun, under 100yds plinking) - match target shooting at Mid and Long Range or hunting?

 

Why ask because ... it all depends on many factors such as bullet weight and ogive design, powder charge (smokeless or black powder) and the external ballistics of the bullet and of course the distance the round is being shot

 

I only have cowboy main match 45 Colt levers, a 22LR and a 30-30 lever so I can't really compare from experience. What I do know is - the 220 Swift is one of the flattest trajectories (0 MOA @ 200yds) but not a lever caliber. But for common lever calibers shooting distance ... my M94 Winchester loaded with the Ideal 311413 'Squab' speer point (169gr GC) bullet and smokeless powder will shoot with a flat trajectory out to 500 meters with accuracy (See footnote). Can't think of any other lever caliber from 20 up to 50 that will make the trip to 500m or out to 1000yds without serious MOA adjustment. Plinking range, ie 50 to 100, there are many flat calibers even the 500+gr bullet 45-70

 

So would appreciate a Why & Distance reply. Then folks can respond to your post more factually

 

Footnote: 0.438" @200m to 0.779" @ 500m sight adjustments. 500m accuracy = 5 shot 7" group with a Williams receiver peep sight and a fat pin head globed front sight

[Concho Billy]

I'd love to see a Lever Gun in 45-120

 

...and I'm not aware of the belief that the 45-70 is a "Flat Shooting" caliber.

 

Maybe...219 zipper...218Bee...hmmm...

Maybe by flat shooting, he meant it would knock the shooter flat........how big would the receiver and lever be on a 45-120 lever action?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I''ve really enjoyed the smaller calibers, 25-35 Winchester 1894 and the 32-40 Marlin. I've never tried them at real long ranges, heck 150-200 yards is long range for me Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Smoked Fish , SASS # 52621]

To answer a few questions:

I am thinking more of smokeless powder than black.

I am wondering how far you can , with some consistency, push a lever gun for distance shooting [up to 1000 yards ?].

I am wondering which caliber , barrel length, lever gun, would be best for the above use. [this is THE question]

There are probably several guns, calibers , that could be recommended. [just like Sharps shooters- gong shooters]

This is not plinking, but really not match either, unless some group wanted to start a gong shoot with lever guns rather than Sharps types. Sound interesting ?

Remember the example of Wind in my first post. 800 yards with a Marlin 38-55. Impressive. There probably was no wind.

Are there better lever guns than the Marlin or are there better calibers [45-70] than the 38-55? Are there better calibers than the 45-70 ?

I am under no illusion that a lever gun will compete with a Sharps type [falling block type] rifle.

I am interested in stock lever guns, bigger calibers, old calibers., lead bullets

Hope this helps clear up the question. Thanks

Smoked Fish

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Both the 33 WCF in a a 1886, and the 348 in a model 71 (86) using a Hard cast bullet will shoot flatter than any of the pre-1900 cartridges except for the one that would win this contest, which is the:

 

1895 Winchester in 30.06 caliber. I have loaded for them with Hard cast bullets for many years, and Any one of them will out shoot (flatter) ANY of the old BP express rifle cartridges.

 

 

Snakebite

Snakebite has it right. M95 in 30-06...........

[Griff]

Here's the thing, long range accuracy is not dependent on the action type. The same factors apply to a levergun as they would to a bolt, single shot or semi-auto. All the debates over what is the best long distance cartridge will still apply. Then add, can it be chambered in a levergun?

 

And if you ask, what is the most accurate "traditional" levergun cartridge? Even if you get some agreement on what constitutes a "traditional levergun caliber", you'll get almost as many answers as responses... because there will be some folks who agree. If I were to theorize, (because I don't own either), an 1876 in .45-60 would probably be as good as a .45-110 in an 1886... with black powder, but choose an 1886 in .45-60, especially if you plan on smokeless, as the smaller case will be more effecient burning smokeless than the largely unused capacity in that -110 case.

 

 

Snakebite has it right. M95 in 30-06...........

 

Maybe, but then again, a BLR in several of it's calibers will run away from that -'06!

[tumbleweed tess]

Buy a 45-90 on the 86 platform and go shoot.

[Chili Ron]

Wow Oops I mean Howdy,

You didn't get an answer ya darn near got a text on exterior ballistics.

Around these parts your question has to be exact.

But there sure is a lotta great info on this page.

I was gonna say .250-3000 until that pard mentioned the M95 in 3006.

Maybe I should print all this off and discuss it with some pards that don't

git to this wire much....they got jobs....

Great question terrific answers.

Ya know tho, I could do without this autocorrection of my carefully constructed

misspellings. What fun is that??????????????????????

Im not a grammarian ya know.

Best

CR

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

Both the 33 WCF in a a 1886, and the 348 in a model 71 (86) using a Hard cast bullet will shoot flatter than any of the pre-1900 cartridges except for the one that would win this contest, which is the:

 

1895 Winchester in 30.06 caliber. I have loaded for them with Hard cast bullets for many years, and Any one of them will out shoot (flatter) ANY of the old BP express rifle cartridges.

 

 

Snakebite

 

I think that is the clear winner. 30-06 works fine on cast and with the box magazine you can load a higher bc cast, thus less drop.