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Muleskinner_Pat

Dropped Holster

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It's finally come to this...a new low in SASS...the "Wardrobe Malfunction" rule...how appropriate.

 

If the goal is to safely finish a gunfight as quicly as possible, and no rule has been vilolated the OF COURSE the shooter should be allowed to safely recover and continue the stage of fire.

 

How does it look? If I have the clock, a shooter grabs the belt off the ground maintaing muzzle awarness; stages and draws 1st pistol, holsters; 2nd pistol, holsters then I'm giving YEEEEE HAAAAAWS and his/ her time.

 

Next shooter....& I really don't care where your belt is unless you come to the line with a shotgun bra. That's a Red Line item.

 

IMHO we spend way too much time projecting unsafe BS and not enough time training to complete the gunfight with safe muzzle awareness.

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Not withstanding PWB opinion, the Shooters Handbook, R.O. 1 Book, Beartrap got it, Bart Solo got it, Branchwater Jack got it, Cole Younger Requlator got it, Brother King got it.


D.D.D. I made this FLOW CHART that might help you;


FLOW CHART


STEP 1; Safety Rule #1; Treat every gun as if it is always loaded.


Reject rule; Do not proceed.


Accept rule; Go to Step 2.

 


STEP 2; Safety Rule #2; Never point the muzzle of a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.


Reject rule; Do not proceed.


Accept rule; Go to Step 3.

 


STEP 3; Ammunition used in SASS Matches have enough power to penetrate through gun cases, gun rugs and carts to cause sufficient injury or death to the human body.


Reject rule; Do not proceed.


Accept rule; Go to Step 4.



STEP 4; Firearm safety rules should be observed as soon as the participant enters club property.


Reject rule; Proceed to Steps 4a and Step 4b.


Accept rule; Go to Step 5.


STEP 4a; Firearm safety rules only apply when;


1. After the gun is removed from it’s carrying case, rug, cart or holster.


2. It applies only when on the firing line; i.e. loading table to unloading table.


3. It does not apply to any activity prior to going to the unloading table. All firearms are presumed to be empty before reaching the loading table and therefore can not be a risk to particpants.


4. I’m a safe shooter and the rules should only apply to new participants.



STEP 4b; If you accept any of the rules listed in STEP 4a you need to attend a NRA certified firearms safety course and visit a major hospital emergency room to view gunshot wounds.



STEP 5; A properly holstered handgun with the hammer down on a empty chamber or fired cartridge that remains secured in the holster is as safe as a firearm that is in the same condition and is stored in a case, rug or cart.


Reject rule; Do not proceed. Obtain and study books on firearm designs and learn their mechanical features and safeties.


Accept rule; Proceed to STEP 6.



STEP 6; The rulebook trumps personal opinions.


Reject rule; Go start your own shooting sport.

 

Accept rule; Proceed to STEP 7.



STEP 7; It is not possible to have a rule that covers every situation that may occur during a match. Quit trying to find a reason to penalize a shooter for anything you disagree with.


Accept all the above steps; You got it right! Let’s have some fun

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It's finally come to this...a new low in SASS...the "Wardrobe Malfunction" rule...how appropriate.

 

If the goal is to safely finish a gunfight as quicly as possible, and no rule has been vilolated the OF COURSE the shooter should be allowed to safely recover and continue the stage of fire.

 

How does it look? If I have the clock, a shooter grabs the belt off the ground maintaing muzzle awarness; stages and draws 1st pistol, holsters; 2nd pistol, holsters then I'm giving YEEEEE HAAAAAWS and his/ her time.

 

Next shooter....& I really don't care where your belt is unless you come to the line with a shotgun bra. That's a Red Line item.

 

IMHO we spend way too much time projecting unsafe BS and not enough time training to complete the gunfight with safe muzzle awareness.

Common sense..

 

Thanks...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Bro King;

"It's finally come to this...a new low in SASS...the "Wardrobe Malfunction" rule...how appropriate."

 

Lets hope it does not come to that... I agree with your sentiment.

 

I also do not want to see any direct rule dictating how low you can be "Hung".

 

Snakebite

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Thanks Snakebite, now the people in the surrounding offices are wondering why I'm laughing! How low you can be hung, LOL.

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:ph34r: While this thread seems to have developed a life of its own, please understand that we who were involved were not trying to find a way to penalize the shooter. We were, in fact, looking for a way out of doing so, but were unaware of the "holstered trumps dropped/uncontrolled guns" ruling.

My erroneous SDQ ruling was overturned by higher authority (apparently a good thing) and the shooter was given a reshoot and went on to win his category. We had dinner together at the banquet that evening, and it was cordial.

BTW, he was so far ahead of closest competitor in class he would have won regardless, but THAT fact doesn't negate my error.

 

The OP was made as a means of discussion regarding shooters maintaining control of guns and perceived safety. I think we have adequately debated the issue, and in a (mostly) productive and civil manner. I feel it a shooter's responsibility to maintain control of their guns (long OR short) but the rules state such in a way that seems confusing to me. Regardless, the rules are the rules.

 

Style/manner of wearing holsters doesn't/shouldn't enter into it, as I previously mentioned, and for me, it didn't.

 

I stand educated through the participation of all who have contributed to this discussion, and thank you.

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If your belt buckle breaks and holsters hit the ground, whether you wear it high or low, the result is the same.

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I think the crust of the original post is that Muleskinner was uncomfortable with loaded guns (holstered or not) on the ground pointing at him and the crowd, and he was concerned and brought it up here.

 

Loosing control due to breakage is always accidental, however many of us at the Cal state Championship who saw this for the first time KNEW this was going to happen, I just didn't think it would take only 1 week.

 

I've made many a mistake, but I ain't going to make that one.

Wear your holsters where ever you like as long as your'e having fun, but safety IS the main concern.

 

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I honestly think that the only logical answer here is that guns are safe in the holsters as long as the holsters remain safely on the shooter.

 

 

Just my humble opinion....

 

-tex fiddler

now this makes sence to mee tooo

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Thanks for the link Allie! I needed a good chuckle. As a high school teacher I see kids 'saggin' their pants all the time. In our school it's a violation that gets you sent home, or someone in the administration will zip tie a couple of belt loops together so the pants stay up. Some kids try to sag so low you can actually see the bottom of their underwear! I think it's hilarious. They don't do it in my class because I laugh at em and mock their choice of underwear.

 

I never thought I would see a saggin cowboy! But, I wouldn't make a call against him for it. I would call him for wearing his shotgun belt too high, I'm surprised no one mentioned that.

 

If your students knew where the style started and what it meant, they might not be so eager to present themselves that way.

 

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If your students knew where the style started and what it meant, they might not be so eager to present themselves that way.

 

 

 

You got that right. It started in prison. A signal to others that they was, well. You can figure it out.

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This whole discussion has gotten out of hand, and there are many misrepresentations of what I was originally trying to say.

I know the shooter involved, and he is a good shooter. I never thought he was unsafe, and couldn't care less where he decides to wear his gunbelt. I was only trying to give the people reading the post the background of what had happened.

 

Many of you seem to think that because it is in the SASS Rulebook, it was crafted in stone at the same time as the Ten Commandments. Just because the SASS Rulebook says it is OK doesn't necessarily mean it is safe. The rules are written by humans, who despite their best of intentions, are still only human.

When I read the comments of some of the people here, I sort of wonder what they are thinking.

Several have stated that if the guns came off while still loaded, it is OK to pick them up and shoot them.

How does that fly with the rule that says if I drop a shotgun shell on the ground, I can't pick it up?

Well - lets see. If I bend over to pick up a shotgun shell, my crossdraw may come out and fall on the ground, or my muzzles might sweep someone behind me. Wasn't that the purpose of the dropped round rule when it was first implemented? If not, then why is it a safety penalty? I don't know anyone who wants to take the time to bend over and pick up a round, but it was ruled unsafe a long time ago and a safety penalty assigned to it. If bending over to pick up a round is unsafe (and believe me, I am not arguing that it is) why is picking up loaded guns off the ground safe? Can anyone just give me a common sense answer to that OTHER THAN "Because it says so in the rules book"?

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...STEP 6; The rulebook trumps personal opinions.

 

Reject rule; Go start your own shooting sport.

 

...

Just because someone questions a rule is not justification for rudeness (telling them to start their own sport).

 

How many times has the rule about leaving an empty shell on the carrier of a long gun been discussed here and on the TG Summit Agenda? Several. Should everyone proposing a change in that find another sport. I think not.

 

Opinions about rules should not be the basis for calls at a match; but, they can be discussed here so we can all learn or propose changes.

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

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Sorry, but tying to make a case to DQ someone because their belt buckle breaks and their holsters fall to the ground just doesn't make sense to me.... UNLESS the guns come out of the holster/s. In that case, the gun would no longer be a part of the holster package and would be considered a dropped gun, for which there are already rules that address such a situation. Same with any ammo in the loops on the holster. There must be some point where the line is drawn... in this case it is the holster.. the gun is either in it or out of it. As I pointed out, this came out of the Cross Draw "WARS" were some Zealots declared war on any shooter using a Cross Draw who didn't do a complete "About Face" before drawing or re-holstering. Defining the gun as safe if the muzzle was in the holster, not cocked or down on a live round pretty much ended that BS. It also helped to put a stop to the guys who were always trying to make a case that someone's gun was pointing at them while it was in the holster... (duh... the 30 degree rule). That same gun which is in the holster, and safe, is all of a sudden on the ground and in the holster. What has changed? Nothing. In the many years that I worked with the ROC and other committees, the one thing that I learned was that few changes were a stand-alone issue. It seems that they always have an effect upon something else that we don't immediately see. There are many rules that were put into place because of some rare situation (like this), or because one shooter did something that someone else didn't like. Or better yet...... because Roy, Gene or Hoppy wouldn't do it.


The first thing that you learn in "Protest" School, is that hanging the word "Safety", or "It's for the Children" on what ever you want done, will increase the chances that it will happen. I don't give a Rats Ripe Rump if they make YET another rule to penalize the broken belt buckle or the "Butt Plug" type holster, because it will simply not happen often enough to worry about.

 

 

 

Snakebite :P

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I don't like the call, but that's OK. I realize you can't please everybody.

So, if "in the holsters" means safe, then let's finish what that means.

Here's a few questions that come to mind:

 

- Can the holster-safe, loaded revolvers be picked up and fired?

 

- What if they fall in mud and maybe clog a barrel?

 

 

- What does "in the holsters" actually mean when a holster rig is dropped on the ground? You know that when a revolver moves partially out of the holster, that will become an issue.

 

-tex fiddler

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Well since the guns are not "Dropped" guns, I would say that they could be picked up.

 

As for the maybe clogged barrel or maybe bent or maybe this or maybe that... I'm sure not going to even attempt to define every possible "what if" that someone can think of. If it happens to you, and you think that shooting the guns would be unsafe, then you ought not do it. If you are one of the ROs the next time it happens, and you actually think that the guns are not safe to shoot, then you ought to stop the shooter.... in fact, it you would be obligated to do so.... if it turns out that you are wrong, then the shooter would get a restart.

 

I'm done with this one. If the ROC or the WB wants to pursue it.... then let them go for it.

 

Snakebite

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And you have to also realize, that by definition, the pistol, in a holster, on the ground by whatever means does not meet the definition of a dropped firearm...

 

ROI Page 29

  • Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

by definition it is not a dropped firearm because the pistol was never in the shooter's control.....

They most certainly were in his control when in his holsters and on his hip.

When they fell, they were out of his control. My situation with the way he wears

the holsters is that it INCREASES the probability that the holster/belt will fail. The increased stress on the belt when

worn in this fashion is most probably what caused the buckle to break. The stress is caused because the belt is not around an immobile part of his body but around his legs.

If there is no penalty for the holsters falling than the shooter is willing to accept the additional risk involved. He might not if there was a penalty.

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Joe, you're right. It should be better said that as long as the pistols remain in holster, they are where they are intended regardless of where those holsters end up.

 

While I may or may not personally agree with it, as an RO, it is the call that I would make until informed of a ruling otherwise.

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Just because someone questions a rule is not justification for rudeness (telling them to start their own sport).

 

 

 

Just Allie Mo

 

There is nothing rude about telling someone that if they believe their personal opinion supersedes the rules of a organization they belong to they would better off starting their own organization.

 

For example there is another organization that has done that; NCOWS.

 

Another organization that created their own shooting sport when SASS refused to is Cowboy Mounted Shooting Association.

 

It is part of what makes the American experience unique is the willingness to try something your own way if you have the courage and ability.

 

su·per·sede

/ˌso͞opərˈsēd/
Verb
Take the place of (a person or thing previously in authority or use); supplant: "the older models have now been superseded".
Synonyms
supplant - replace - substitute - displace

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There is nothing rude about telling someone that if they believe their personal opinion supersedes the rules of a organization they belong to they would better off starting their own organization.

 

For example there is another organization that has done that; NCOWS.

 

Another organization that created their own shooting sport when SASS refused to is Cowboy Mounted Shooting Association.

 

It is part of what makes the American experience unique is the willingness to try something your own way if you have the courage and ability.

 

su·per·sede

/ˌso͞opərˈsēd/
Verb
Take the place of (a person or thing previously in authority or use); supplant: "the older models have now been superseded".
Synonyms
supplant - replace - substitute - displace

 

True - there have been many times here on the Wire when someone states that they don't like this or that emphatically about the rules/ dress guidleines / the way a match is run / etc they have been asked to start up their own sport or such.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Before this thread get too far off what we need, will someone please tell me exactly what "in the holsters" means after the rig hits the ground:

 

- Both pistols 100% in the holsters?

- One pistol 100% out of the holster?

- One pistol 50% out of a holster?

- Two pistols still at least 1/2" in the holsters?

- One pistol at least 1" from fully in?

- Or what?

 

-tex fiddler

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Hi Tex,

 

In the glossary, I found the following. "Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged." From that I would infer that the revolver is in the holster until the muzzle clears the mouth of the holster or is no longer in contact with the prop where it was staged.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Allie,


it seems to me that "Revolver in hand" and "Revolver on the ground" are not the same.

 

However, given the way this thread has gone, no outcome would surprise me.

 

I just think we need a ruling for "in the holsters" when they are on the ground.

 

-tex fiddler

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Hi Tex,

 

In the glossary, I found the following. "Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged." From that I would infer that the revolver is in the holster until the muzzle clears the mouth of the holster or is no longer in contact with the prop where it was staged.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

That seems like a reasonable inference to me.

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perhaps a broken belt buckle by nature is (equipment failure)


therefore: different than loosing control of your holsters (slip past yer hinny) (not worn correctly etc)


but then again


maybe not


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