32-20 Loading Troubles... HELP

[Major Art Tillery]

I have been loading some 32-20 rounds for a Marlin 32-20 Cowboy, but am having trouble getting a good crimp. Twice in the past week I had a round that failed to chamber because the bullet pushed back in case. What I use: Starline Brass, RCBS Cowboy Die set, Badman Bullets .314 diameter, and a lee factory Crimp Die. I stopped using these rounds to try and crimp tighter, but just can't seem to get it done. Do I need a larger diameter bullet? Any info would be great. Circle up the wagons and Help me PARDS!

 

Major Art Tillery

[Ramblin' Rose SASS #2811]

Don't know if this will help but Mad Dog was having a similar problem, he shoots 32-20 black powder in a 73 and tried Desperado Bullets. They make a bullet with a crimp groove and that seems to have solved his problem. He loads on a Dillon 550.

 

Hope this helps.

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

I don't load 32-20's but had the same thing happen with 38 special's till I ran all of my rifle rounds through a Lee factory crimp die.

 

It is worth a try.

 

http://leeprecision.com/factory-crimp-die-32-20.html

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

The groove diameter should dictate what bullet diameter you use! After that the factors that regulate neck tension come into play. Looks like thats pretty well covered in terms of basic quality tools. Heres a thought though, Starline being pretty stiff brass I wonder maybe if judicious annealing of the case mouth might be the answer. And no, standing them up in water isn't necessary. Twirl the case in your fingers until you see the last 1/4 inch of the neck turn that bronzy/blue then drop and let air cool. Beware cause there is a threshold between somewhat tolerable heat and burning the holy bejesus out of your pinkies!!! Do a few cases and try it out. Report back please!

[Painted Filly]

Sent you a PM

 

Painted Filly

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

I ran into that a few years ago, I tried different brass, dies, bullets and a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Nothing worked for me, I finally sold the rifle. I hope you get a good answer and share it. Good Luck.

[Oklahoma Dee]

I run a dillion 650 and load 38 specials , I also use the Lee factory crimp die, I changed over to it the last 3-4000 rounds. I have noticed that no matter what bullet type is used, be it with or with out a crimp groove, I am getting more rounds that do not have a strong enough crimp on the bullet and allow the bullet to push into the case . These cases are star-line new, once fired, and multiple fired cases.

 

Visual inspection of each round seems to catch several since then.

 

Check the Lee Factory crimp die for lead and grease buildup inside it. Seems to build up pretty fast. I now check it every 2-300 rounds. Kinda of a pain. But the number of bad crimps are dropping off.

 

I am toyin with the idea of going back to the dillon crimp die, as I never had this problem before. Plus it is easier to clean it.

 

OkDee

[Capt. Augustus #6390]

I used Remington brass and never had a crimp problem with the .32-20, but I heard of other people having a problem. In fact there was an article about it in the SASS newsletter. I looked at the brand bullets you are using, which one are you using. They show two weights. The article I read recommended a bullet similar to the 100 grain, which has a band in front of the crimp.

[Two Dot, 14911]

The Starline brass is so short that I had to crimp it on a single stage press with the factory crimp die. It would not crimp properly on my 550.

[Roger Rapid]

I've been reloading 32-20s for a scazillion years and they can be fussy. First of all, I'm surprised that you can get .314" bullets to work. I'm running my 32-20 lead through a .311" resizing die and this helps prevent compressed or damaged brass. It also give me a good snug press into brass that was sized/shaped in RCBS dies. As long as you have a bullet with a well shaped cannalure - and you get the end of the case to fall where it belongs in the cannalure, then you should be able to crimp it there with almost any of the crimping dies, and get a good tight fit where the bullet can't be knocked back into the case. ...RR

[Major Art Tillery]

I used Remington brass and never had a crimp problem with the .32-20, but I heard of other people having a problem. In fact there was an article about it in the SASS newsletter. I looked at the brand bullets you are using, which one are you using. They show two weights. The article I read recommended a bullet similar to the 100 grain, which has a band in front of the crimp.

I am loading the 115 grn Bullets. Maybe I should try the 32s they have in .313 100grn?

[Roger Rapid]

I don't think you'll find any noticeable difference between 115g and 100g unless the configuration or depth of the cannalure is different. ...R

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

I was having the same problem with my 32 20 loads recently. I compared my reloads with some factory loads and found I wasn't crimping my loads nearly as much as the factory loads. So I set the crimp die down to give the same crimp as the factory loads and things seem fine now.

 

By the way, the factory loads had a lot of crimp on them. The brass was Starline.

 

SCG

[Fordyce Beals]

I load mostly straight wall cases, I always like to see some case tension on the bullet as well as a good crimp. When the decaping pin has a expander button on it, you can get more tension on the bullet by reducing the expander button diameter. Chuck it up in a drill and file or emery some diameter off.

 

I like to see some evidence like a bulge in the loaded case diameter at the bullet so I know that the case is stretched and holding the bullet as well as a good crimp. Then bullets can't move inside the case to a lower over all cartage length.

 

This may be what the original poster has happening.

 

Fordyce who also utilizes "a full powder charge under compression will also keep the bullet from moving into the case under recoil or compression in the magazine."

[Seldom Seen #16162]

I have reloaded many thousands of 32-20 using RCBS Cowboy Dies and the same 115 gr. style bullet. Contrary to rumor the bottleneck 32-20 is not hard to reload.

 

I am curious as to why you are using .314" bullet and how you are seating it? The expander die in my set is .312" and I use .313" diameter bullets.

 

My suggestion is to try .313" sized bullets and roll crimp into the crimping groove on the bullets. I also have never bothered to trim the o.a.l. of my brass and had never had a issue with bullet setback.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

"Fordyce who also utilizes "a full powder charge under compression will also keep the bullet from moving into the case under recoil or compression in the magazine.""

-----------------------------

This statement is only one reason why loading data is not allowed on this forum.

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This statement is TRUE if the powder is black powder.

This statement is FALSE and dangerous if the powder is smokeless.

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The statement does not specify.

Anyone not familiar with powders or new to reloading can use this general information not knowing that it is for a specific type of powder. Not good.

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I apologize for picking this post. It is not personal. There are many postings in this forum that give information that is incorrect or incomplete than can be dangers if used. There are many postings made that are not directly related to the original post. This thread went from crimping issues to powder charge. There are threads that ask about loading data for smokeless but there is always the bp comments tossed in. This also goes the other way. Someone asking about bp gets information on smokeless.

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Adding comments not directly related to the original question is distracting and can confuse the issue.

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Another issue is a lot of loading used in cas is below manufacturer's published data. Manufacturers spend big dollars to test their loading data to make sure it's safe for all firearms. Yes they have to satisfy lawyers and have testing data to show how they arrived at their loading charts. But to arbitrarily down load to get lower velocities and recoil below published data can be unsafe The reloader who publicly shares this information and it is used by another is at possible legal risk should something go wrong.

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The rest of the information in that post does address the crimp issue.

I have done the reshaping of expanders.

 

CH

[Fordyce Beals]

"Fordyce who also utilizes "a full powder charge under compression will also keep the bullet from moving into the case under recoil or compression in the magazine.""

-----------------------------

This statement is only one reason why loading data is not allowed on this forum.

-

This statement is TRUE if the powder is black powder.

This statement is FALSE and dangerous if the powder is smokeless.

-

....

-

The rest of the information in that post does address the crimp issue.

I have done the reshaping of expanders.

 

CH

CH

No offence taken, I forgot that some people get their reloading data from random sources (like me?) but I never meant to fill the case with fast burning smokeless powder like P. O. Ackley did to test to failure the various action types.

Fordyce Beals

[Major Art Tillery]

I have reloaded many thousands of 32-20 using RCBS Cowboy Dies and the same 115 gr. style bullet. Contrary to rumor the bottleneck 32-20 is not hard to reload.

 

I am curious as to why you are using .314" bullet and how you are seating it? The expander die in my set is .312" and I use .313" diameter bullets.

 

My suggestion is to try .313" sized bullets and roll crimp into the crimping groove on the bullets. I also have never bothered to trim the o.a.l. of my brass and had never had a issue with bullet setback.

I will try the other Bullets... I have them for the 32 h&r mag. But when I ordered the 32-20 Bullets from badman Bullets they come .314... So that is why I tryed em. I have loaded hornady 32 xtp Bullets for a varmit round and had no issues. Thanks for your info pard.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Fordyce Beals,

Sent a PM.

Unrelated to this topic.

Information on a BP annual match coming up next month.

Not that far from you.

 

CH

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

I have been using 32-20 in both rifles and pistols since I started CAS about 20 years ago. I don't keep count but I must have loaded a couple of hundred thousand rounds or so over that time period.

 

I found that Starline brass is shorter by quite a bit than other manufacturers like RP or WW. I measured an RP case at 1.310" and a Starline at 1.275".

 

When the neck length is considered, think of the shoulder of both being in the same place as measured from the rim, the RP case has .045" more neck length to grip the bullet than the Starline.

 

I found that in my rifles, particularly the '73 but also the Marlin and Winchester '92, the Starline brass would let the bullets back into the case in maybe 5% of the rifle rounds. When using RP brass, I had no problems at all with bullets backing into the case.

 

Another problem when loading using a Dillon 550 and 32-20 dies is that some manufacturers dies are too long for the shoulder to be set back far enough to chamber the round in some guns. I use Redding dies and had to turn about .075" off the base of the sizing die and set it all the way to the shell plate to get the round to chamber in all of my guns. I believe the problem is specific to the Dillon 550 because the shell plate is a little thicker than other manufacturers. I've heard that folks have better luck with the RCBS Cowboy dies but I don't have any experience with them.

 

Shortening the sizing die and setting the shoulder back some on the 32-20 has the effect of making a longer neck and giving more neck friction. That coupled with a heavy crimp will solve the problem most of the time.

 

I use 115 gr bullets sized to .313.

 

I've also found that when the brass gets old and worn (maybe 15 shots) the crimp problem gets worse and the brass has to be relegated to pistols.

[Barrelhouse Bob, SASS#22663]

First, trim all brass to the same length. Then use a bullet that has a driving band forward of the crimp groove. Be sure the dies are adjusted so the crimp is in the groove and the driving band is forward of the crimp. You now have a load that will not allow the bullet to slide into the case. I load Remington, Winchester and Starline brass all mixed together with this method and never experience problems with the over all length changing.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Just a thought on the "while you're at it" march...

 

Pull a loaded round to see what dia. the .314 bullet is after you've loaded it.

[Roger Rapid]

Earl Brasse... Excellent point. In my previous post when I mentioned .311" sizing for 32-20, I had no problems seating .313" bullets, my problem was getting the cartridges to seat nicely in my pistol without forcing them into the cylinder as a result of the expanded neck of the cartridge. (Sorry I failed to point that out.) ...R

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Roger,

 

Yes, R-P brass was too thick, switched to Winchester (thinnest) & chambered/worked fine. Hadn't tried Starline but I hear it is between the two in thickness.

 

 

Major,

 

Is it possible that after loading "x" number of rounds that lead shavings/lube bits have accumulated in the seating die & allowed the bullet to be seated deeper/ enough to miss the crimp groove? You might try inspecting all rounds crimps.

 

If you have any of the cases that the bullet slipped into, measure the length of the brass & also its' thickness at the case mouth to see if something is out of spec.

 

Check to see if you are getting enough crimp,see if you can get it to crimp more. If you're using a progressive machine try to crimp a few on a single stage press & see if it crimps more than your progressive machine, it may not.

[Major Art Tillery]

Going to try some of the points I have gotten from you all here. Will report back.

[Tom Bullweed]

I load .32WCF (.32-20) for original 1873, 1892 and a Colt Bisley (ca. 1907). I use 100-115 grain bullets from Oregon Trail Or Meister sized to .312. These work great over slightly-less-than-factory W-231. I use three-stage dies from Lee on a single-stage press and put the crimp in the groove to the point where it cannot catch a fingernail. I have never had a bullet set back in the case. My cases last 8-10 loadings before the start to split. I use Remington or Starline brass.

Keep at it. This is a great round.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

FWIW;

Lee FCD's need to be cleaned often. They also wear out if not properly maintained. If you loaded 3-4000 rounds and not cleaned the die, or adjusted properly it may be ruined beyond repair.

[Major Art Tillery]

My lee die is brand new, got it because of problems getting a good crimp with the rcbs set. I toyed with the rounds a bit more tonight, fighting with seating depth... Thinking I may have it fixed. Going to shoot some tomorrow and see. I hope to finish off these Bullets I have, then switch to the .313 Bullets.

[Major Art Tillery]

I load .32WCF (.32-20) for original 1873, 1892 and a Colt Bisley (ca. 1907). I use 100-115 grain bullets from Oregon Trail Or Meister sized to .312. These work great over slightly-less-than-factory W-231. I use three-stage dies from Lee on a single-stage press and put the crimp in the groove to the point where it cannot catch a fingernail. I have never had a bullet set back in the case. My cases last 8-10 loadings before the start to split. I use Remington or Starline brass.

Keep at it. This is a great round.

I think it is a great round too! Really hoping to get it to work. I too am using w-231 for a powder behind a 115grn bullet. I will get the problem fixed... To stubborn not too. Thanks for the info.