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'73 mishap on a stage


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I was ROing on the final stage yesterday at a local match for a fellow RO and he sent the first rifle shot downrange from his Uberti '73. It did not sound or look right, especially when his rifle forearm flew off in splinters.

 

We stopped and made sure he was ok, he was, and visually inspected the rifle before sending him to the unloading table for a more thorough look.

 

It appears he may have had a high primer, the only explanation we can come up with right now. The entire tube full of ammo blew out at the first shot.

 

I have not seen or heard of this happening before and understand this is why we use RNFP bullets,

 

The shooter is a long time experienced SASS member/reloader.

 

Be careful out there.

 

Rev

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I didn't get a picture as it was the last stage and I finished with the posse as RO as he was putting things away. I did find a lot of shaved lead in front of the stage as if someone had dumped a bunch of silver shavings and a couple of wood slivers from the forearm. He will give the rifle a good going over but thinks the gun itself is ok, will just have to replace the loading tube and forearm.

 

I'm thinking it was 45 LC.

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Off the top of my head I would say a high primer wouldn't do it......because the RNFP bullet would be no different than seating a primer in the press.,,,,, Did he leaver the gun after the first shot? Or did it blow when he shot the first round?

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Wonder if the shooter inspected the primer end of his rounds. I agree with Cowboy Junky on the RNFP - and I've even seen shooters at a regular range load and shoot RN .38s in a tubular magazine and shoot them safely (which I both advised them of AND I moved several ally's away!). However, a damaged primer - one that has ruptured and was pressed in cockeyed during the primer insertion - is a major hazard, especially if the primer's anvil is sitting cockeyed, partially exposed, etc. Regardless, that's one heck of a scare and the shooter is super lucky. The forearm probably played a big role in saving his left hand. Wow... RR

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Off the top of my head I would say a high primer wouldn't do it......because the RNFP bullet would be no different than seating a primer in the press.,,,,, Did he leaver the gun after the first shot? Or did it blow when he shot the first round?

 

It fired on the first shot and opened the lever for the next but did not close the lever.

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I am new toi CAS and plan on using a '92 shooting .38 Special RN bullets. I was not aware that we had to use RNFP bullets. Many of the guys that I deer hunt with have used lever action rifles with RN bullets for many many years without a mishap. Should I be rethinking my approach?

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Speculation....

 

Trying to, as my ole pard Widder would say, "be the boolit", I think maybe a very high or sideways primer got into a high speed collision with the front-most edge of the carrier as it tried to shove the round back into the tube during the normal cycling process, "chopping" the primer in the process. That would put the round that started the chain fire as rearmost in the tube, NOT the one in the elevator, but yeah buddy, once it fired out of battery it's gonna take em all with it. Had the rifle been a Henry, they'd be calling the shooter "stumpy" from here on out.

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I am new toi CAS and plan on using a '92 shooting .38 Special RN bullets. I was not aware that we had to use RNFP bullets. Many of the guys that I deer hunt with have used lever action rifles with RN bullets for many many years without a mishap. Should I be rethinking my approach?

Judge Lewis

In a tubular magazine under recoil, the base of the shell is getting slammed into the projectile of the round behind it. With round nose flat point lead, and a properly seated primer, the lead will never contact the primer as the flat point will contact the case. With a full round nose, the very tip has the potential to contact that primer.

 

I'm sure others can explain it better, but there ya go. IMO you should use RNFP or trucated cone in tube mags.

 

 

AJ, I was kinda thinking the same thing, and if there was one cartridge, the one on the carrier that didn't detonate, that would seem to support that.

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Judge Lewis... Welcome to CAS! For your own safety and for the safety of those around you, stay away from round nose bullets in a tubular magazine. While there is a possibility that a reasonably blunt-nosed RN bullet might not ignite a primer in front of it, the risk is too great. Yes, do use RNFP for your tubular magazine loads. And, of course, RNFP work just as well in your pistols. .RR

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Adirondack Jack - I agree it probably wasn't a round in the elevator that caused the problem - it if was, it probably would have either blown the sideplates off or at least given them a good bulge. And the front of the carrier is rather smooth/flat - interested to know your thoughts on how the carrier might have ignited the primer - or what part of the carrier did it? (I'd love to see pictures of this damaged gun.)

 

Grizzly Dave - I've always wondered about the rounds in tubular magazine at the moment of recoil. Seems to me that the rounds would be somewhat cushioned by the tubular magazine's spring at the moment of impact (the gun going backwards on impact and the rounds in the magazine complying to the laws of intertia and basically staying in place - i.e., seemingly "moving forward") until the spring pushes them back against carrier or stop again. ???

 

...RR

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Judge Lewis: welcome to the CAS life and this little fire that we call the forum.

My .30-30 cartridges are called round nose on the ammo box, but they have slight flats on the bullet tips. I believe that this is common.

 

LFN and RNFP are the most commonly used bullets in CAS. Even though our rifle recoil seems slight, it may be enough to cause primers to detonate in the mag if the bullet has anything but a flat nose. For your safety and the safety of your fellow cowboys, use only flat nosed bullets.

 

Reloading information is best obtained from your local cowboys that are safe and consistently good shooters. Even this internet-thingy has its downfalls. Your local shooters have worked out the bugs and will want to share competitive AND safe reloading information.

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Judge Lewis

In a tubular magazine under recoil, the base of the shell is getting slammed into the projectile of the round behind it. With round nose flat point lead, and a properly seated primer, the lead will never contact the primer as the flat point will contact the case. With a full round nose, the very tip has the potential to contact that primer.

 

I'm sure others can explain it better, but there ya go. IMO you should use RNFP or trucated cone in tube mags.

 

 

AJ, I was kinda thinking the same thing, and if there was one cartridge, the one on the carrier that didn't detonate, that would seem to support that.

 

Recoil? With SASS loads? Using RNFP bullets is good advice just to be extra safe. However, there ain't enough recoil in our SASS rifles to set off a primer.

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I am new toi CAS and plan on using a '92 shooting .38 Special RN bullets. I was not aware that we had to use RNFP bullets. Many of the guys that I deer hunt with have used lever action rifles with RN bullets for many many years without a mishap. Should I be rethinking my approach?

 

With RNFP bullets SO easy to get. And feeds so well in our rifles.

 

WHY even take a chance???????

 

I just looked at 3 different brands of 30-30 ammo. Everyone has a flat point.

 

This is one reason that one company came up with new bullet for lever guns with a plastic pointed tip.

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Recoil? With SASS loads? Using RNFP bullets is good advice just to be extra safe. However, there ain't enough recoil in our SASS rifles to set off a primer.

You obviously dont shoot with some of the Fellers I shoot with....

The ground shakes, the noise makes most of the posse run and hide and the recoil looks like it would knock over a full grown buffalo.

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You obviously dont shoot with some of the Fellers I shoot with....

The ground shakes, the noise makes most of the posse run and hide and the recoil looks like it would knock over a full grown buffalo.

 

Yep, I haven't seen very many "Gamers" (damn I hate that term) using Goex.

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I was ROing on the final stage yesterday at a local match for a fellow RO and he sent the first rifle shot downrange from his Uberti '73. It did not sound or look right, especially when his rifle forearm flew off in splinters.

 

We stopped and made sure he was ok, he was, and visually inspected the rifle before sending him to the unloading table for a more thorough look.

 

It appears he may have had a high primer, the only explanation we can come up with right now. The entire tube full of ammo blew out at the first shot.

 

I have not seen or heard of this happening before and understand this is why we use RNFP bullets,

 

The shooter is a long time experienced SASS member/reloader.

 

Be careful out there.

 

Rev

 

 

It fired on the first shot and opened the lever for the next but did not close the lever.

 

 

This part is not clear. Are you saying the rifle action blew open or the shooter opened it?

If it blew open this sounds like a possible "out-of battery detonation". The round exploding out of battery sets off the one below it and so on.

 

Is this a short stroke gun?

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This part is not clear. Are you saying the rifle action blew open or the shooter opened it?

If it blew open this sounds like a possible "out-of battery detonation". The round exploding out of battery sets off the one below it and so on.

 

Is this a short stroke gun?

 

The shooter opened the action, the action was not blown open. I think AJ has a good handle on what probably happened. I was talking with a couple others at the shoot this morning and they thought the carrier may have had a big part to play in it. It has been short stroked and did find it to be a 357/38 not 45 as I first thought.

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Having experienced the infamous "Henry Blow-up" I can tell you that there are a number of things that can cause magazine detonation. A couple that may be overlooked here are a rough or slightly rusted mag. tube which will or could cause the cartridge column to stick and then slam. This can set off a primer which will in turn set off others. When my little episode occured, it was a follower slipping and setting off the column. The biggest contributor in my case was the RNFP bullet profile was actually not as flat as one would expect. The flat tip was actually slightly convex. On close examination the tip of the bullet was visibley higher in the center of the flat spot than at the edge. Several thousandths to be clear on the description and that higher center was in direct contact with the primer of the cartridge in front of it. The combination of a mistake on the part of the shooter and a poorly designed bullet led to an accidental magazine explosion.

 

Look closely at your bullet profile. If that flat point isn't flat, fix it in whatever way you see fit. In my case I changed suppliers, and added a harsh lesson to my memory bank.

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Blackwater Desperado, would your experience lead you to use a stainless steel magazine spring also? Good point on checking bullet design and reloading procedures.

 

Things like this get everyone's attention and makes us a little more safety conscious to prevent it from happening to anyone else.

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Blackwater Desperado, would your experience lead you to use a stainless steel magazine spring also? Good point on checking bullet design and reloading procedures.

 

Things like this get everyone's attention and makes us a little more safety conscious to prevent it from happening to anyone else.

 

Yep! The stainless spring, and at least twice a year, clean and polish the inside of the magazine tube!!

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"Look closely at your bullet profile. If that flat point isn't flat, fix it in whatever way you see fit. In my case I changed suppliers, and
added a harsh lesson to my memory bank."

 

On several new lightweight bullets I have seen the tip is flat. However the bullet has so much taper the flat isn't sitting on the brass head of the case in front of it. It is sitting directly on the primer.

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I saw that on a thirty-two bullet. OOOOOOOOOHHHH!!! :ph34r::o

 

Some thirty-eights are close to that way too. I saw a picture one time of a .38 magazine with a cut-away. The cartridges didn't all line up straight in the tube! Some of the cartridges were skewed and the edge of the flat point was resting in the middle of the primer!

 

Could be crucial!! :unsure::ph34r:

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In my 17 years of cowboy shooting, I have seen a variety of guns self distruct. Winchester pumps, side by sides, revolvers, Henry rifles, and 73's.

 

Somewhere there is a reason for each one. But in reality, it is rare when the actual fault is definativley found.

 

Lots of speculation and good guesses but, no real proof.

 

Bad loads, objects in the barrel, squibb round in the barrel, high primers, faulty metal, shots out of battery, operator error, etc.

 

The bottom line is when it happens, it is always unexpected. And, it is potentially dangerous.

 

We do get complacent because these events are rare, until they happen.

 

Always be careful when reloading, shooting and maintaining your firearms.

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Here's my Theory (I too would love to see close clear pics of the gun parts, especially the front face of the carrier).

 

Normal cycling of a toggle link, gun goes like this. A round is let into the carrier, and the second round tries to follow. The carrier rises and cuts off the second round, pushing it back into the mag tube. That s what the "ramp" cut into the face of the carrier does. But suppose the round that is trying to enter the carrier along with the round just fed has a high primer, and suppose especially in the instance of a .38 caliber '73, where the rounds sit sorta nose down, butt high in the over-large mag tube,the face of the carrier itself scrapes along the back end of that round as it is shoved forward, and catches on a high or sideways primer (Yes, my 650 has inserted primers sideways, and I have discovered them at the LT) and essentially guillotines the back of the primer, setting it off. Alternately, debris such as a small stone might have made it's way into the action and been forced against the primer as the carrier shoved the round forward. Either instance could be aggravated by a gummy mag tube loaded with powder fouling and accumulated stray bullet lube which happens over time as we all have loaded rounds with gobs of hard lube stuck to em and probably do so more often than we think. This "goo" can cause the follower and/or rounds in the tube to resist moving smoothly, adding to resistance of the round from moving easily forward. A sliver of lead from a round with a shaved bullet (inadequate bell in loading) hanging off the side can do this as well). In any event, I suspect perhaps a round moved back as is normal in the process, and failed to smoothly move forward, and one way or another, a high or sideways primer got set off. Alternately, any round in the tube could have a primer detonate if sideways or high, and the column stuck and failed to shuck forward as the round partially in the carrier failed to be moved smoothly forward in the normal loading cycle. That shucking, a moving forward a distance equal to the carrier length minus loaded round length is normal, but t has to go on unobstructed and with no foreign crud in there or you end up with the column of rounds essentially in an end to end "vise".

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I had a round explode in the action of my Uberti 66 many years ago, using 38 Spl ammo with round nose bullets. That was in 1968. I saw the same thing happen with a 66 in 45 Caliber a few years ago. In both cases, the tab (shell stop) on the back of the loading ladle was missing. My theory is the shell stop failed, allowing the entire cartridge column to slam backward, causing a primer detonation. In my rifle, the side plates were bulged out, but fortunately the magazine tube contained the force of the explosion, so the forearm remained intact. The 66 in 38 caliber magazine tube was made from thick wall aluminum tubing. The 45 caliber Uberti 66 used a regular steel magazine tube, which blew out, splintered the hand guard, and injured the shooters hand. I strongly suspect failure of the shell stop is the cause of these mag tube explosions.

 

Let me ask this: Have any or our SASS shooters ever heard of, or seen a mag tube explosion with a Uberti 73? The 73 has a different style shell stop, which is much less prone to failure than the shell stop on the 1866. I've been on the wire for 13+ years now, and I don't recall ever seeing a thread about a 73 shell stop issue. And for that matter, I don't remember ever seeing a thread about a mag tube explosion in a 73.

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The rifle in the OP is a '73 in .38/.357! No mention of a broken shell stop. The 1860 Henry replicas have no shell stop, but the usual cause of magazine detonation with them is the follower being released incorrectly or sticking and then slamming into the cartridge column when released.

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You obviously dont shoot with some of the Fellers I shoot with....

The ground shakes, the noise makes most of the posse run and hide and the recoil looks like it would knock over a full grown buffalo.

Do the rounds exceede the maximum SASS rifle velocity or damage targets?

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I believe that Adirondak Jack has the right of it. I've used round nose 158gr bullets in my .38s for CAS since 1985 in both pistols & levers; and Remington makes a single 150gr factory load, a Round Nose. Now, mind y'all, there are some VERY different shapes that are CALLED round nose, so yes, caution is warranted, but paranoia is not.

 

If you want to see the relationship any two rounds and lay them flat on a table, bullet nose to cartridge base... Scare yourself silly.

IMG_0619.jpg

Not the best of photos, but take your favorite bullet and lay 'em out like that. Carefully inspect how the nose sits against the base... At the top is a Remington factory 150gr RN, middle is a Sierra 150gr FP, and at the bottom is a Federal factory load 150 gr FP. Each of them have some contact with the brass base and the primer... Similarily, so to will and other cartridge loaded in the same fashion... be it a straight wall or bottleneck.

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... The 1860 Henry replicas have no shell stop, but the usual cause of magazine detonation with them is the follower being released incorrectly or sticking and then slamming into the cartridge column when released.

Yep.

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I'm with AJ & Griff as well it was something mechanical.......that why I asked the question. If it was recoil it would have happened right at the shot......it happened when he opened the lever so it wasn't a recoil detonation it was too late for that.


Plus there isn't any recoil in any SASS gun relatively speaking.....I understand it’s fun to make the gamer jokes an all.....but even a 45LC loaded up stout has little recoil compared to a 30-30, 45-70, 444 etc........that's where you have to start to worry about rounds in the tube.


And he was shooting RNFP’s to boot.

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