What's the call Gunfighters and Rules Gawds?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Jasper,

You make my very point---even after reading all of these opinions you would have shot it the same way some of the folks on here say is WRONG! and in this match you would have gotten a procedural <and just a guess here you would not see why and not be very happy about it>

I DO NOT disagree with Pale Wolfs opinion, but he also stated that the opinion that 'with each pistol' means the first pistol or first 5 shots IS NOT in the rule book.

It seemed pretty clear and straight forward to me too, just like it did to you!

Okay, tell us all how you intended to shoot the stage in question.

 

Phantom

[Tracker Mike SASS #38824]

Same here...after one too many "P"s for cocking for that 6^thshot.

 

+1 Same here for exactly the same reason .....

[Krazy Kajun]

Although I've read most of the post, my original and conculsive reply to Phantom's question in his OP is: NOPE!

 

I like the way Buck D. Law phrased it in his post #55 stating that the GF can only shot those targets in a sequence that is AVAILABLE to other shooting categories.

 

Of which I would have alternated each shot in this manner:

L1

R2

L3

R4

L4

R4

L4

R3

L2

R1

 

Just my way of thinkin!

 

..........Widder

Widder, that there shootin' crosshanded is where I'd trip up, switchin' leads and such. Gotta admire those funfighters...er uh gunfighters...a surly but smart bunch!

 

Kajun.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Krazy:

 

Actually, if you lead off with the left pistol on the left target, its a very simple shooting sequence.

 

OR, you could lead off with the right hand on the right target and have the same results, except in reverse.

 

Different styles work for different style GFer's and the one above would be the simplest for me.

 

Ifn ya ever decide to shoot GF, ya got one of the Worlds Best down in your neck of the woods: Easy Rider.

 

Best regards good friend.

 

 

..........Widder

[Anvil Al #59168]

Although I've read most of the post, my original and conculsive reply to Phantom's question in his OP is: NOPE!

 

I like the way Buck D. Law phrased it in his post #55 stating that the GF can only shot those targets in a sequence that is AVAILABLE to other shooting categories.

 

Of which I would have alternated each shot in this manner:

L1

R2

L3

R4

L4

R4

L4

R3

L2

R1

 

Just my way of thinkin!

 

..........Widder

 

That's the order I had in my head for it as GFer also.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm still trying to understand why a few folks had such a bitter stance on this stage.

 

We want a good fair match. We don't have an "Anti-Gunfighter" agenda...that's just silly.

 

Perhaps a couple of PM's got confused...but that should have been clarified before the posse shot the stage. We had folks that could make a clarification within a minute...still a bit puzzled I guess...but then, as one shooter said, "I'm just an A**hole"...

 

[Pit Bull Tex]

Phantom was you recognized as a A$$ hole sat, night.I did not think so.I enjoyed shooting that stage no matter how I shoot it.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Phantom was you recognized as a A$$ hole sat, night.I did not think so.I enjoyed shooting that stage no matter how I shoot it.

Nope...just one of the Gunfighters thought I was an A-Hole for the way the stage was written and how I handled it...oh well...

[Most Wanted]

Phantom, I coached baseball for 16 plus years and ended many a debate by pulling out the rule book. Yes the baseball rule book is thick but it is also very clear(for the most part). If I pulled the book and all parties involved read the rule there was never any further debate. This is an ongoing problem with the SASS rules. There are too many threads like this one that words like, "imply" , "assume" , "interpretation" and "opinion" come into play. I feel as a sanctioning body SASS should follow these threads and other debates and make the necessary changes to the book. I have read other posts where shooters have created their own Miss/P flow charts and made notes in their rule books based on comments made on posts. If they can do it so can SASS. Yes you can get a ruling online but that won't help that day. I have heard a lot of SASS vet shooters say the rules don't need clarification and yet have seen them make the wrong call. You will NEVER erase all the gray area but that shouldn't be a reason not to try. Good luck with future matches. You deserve a pat on the back not a kick in the rear. Thats my nickel's worth, but some will say it's a plug.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Please see post #68.

 

[Most Wanted]

I read this entire thread and did see that. I hope it gets past discussion and into print. Thanks for your help on this and other rule related matters. The clearer the book the easier your loading table routine.

[BJT]

Phantom,

 

The only thing more irritating than a man with the courage of his convictions is the same man when he is right. I have faith you ain't giving up either quality. Keep em honest.

 

BJT

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

It ain't shootin' Gunfighter that's hard. It's decipherin' stage writing that is.

 

1) Determine if stage instructions are requiring two distinct 5 shot strings or a 10 shot sequence.

 

2) Confirm #1 by seeing if it passes the "squaw grip" test.

 

Just to show how different people "visualize" differently. I would have shot this sequence as 3 single taps with two double taps followed by three single taps. I would lead with my right hand to the left #1 target.

 

For me: My fastest gun out of the holster for the first shot. Locating both pistols on target 2 & 3. Moving both pistols to end target for two almost but not quite double cock double taps allowing left gun to float back to #3 target while last shot of double tap is "ringing", then finishing with each gun on targets 2 & 1.

 

Were I to lead with the same gun on the same side, I would put myself(emphasis on Me no one else) into a "P" trap between shots #7 & #8. #7 would be my left hand on a right end target with my cocked right gun hanging out to the right and aimed at the end target when the #8 shot would need to go to the #3 target. Knowin' me, I would pull the trigger, nail the end target, and see Buffalo Dick doin' a dance while singin' "Max gotta P".

 

Then again, based on transisitions or following movement or target size or target placement I would do it completely different!

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Oh yeah, good stage Phantom.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

3, 2, 4, 1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 3, 2.

 

pb

[Anvil Al #59168]

3, 2, 4, 1, 4, 1, 4, 1, 3, 2.

 

pb

 

Did not think about that. Nice

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

or 4, 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 4, 1 that way most of the shots are closer together

 

 

pb

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

or 4, 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 4, 1 that way most of the shots are closer together

 

 

pb

Yup +1 Actually 1, 4, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 1, 4

 

Since I shoot my left gun first.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I can never think of ways to shoot stages.The ways all of you cowboys say it can be shot,I never think of.When one way is listed I have to pick up my guns and shoot at tape on the wall.Wish My brain worked like a real GUNFIGHTER.I like Creeker's way the best. I know I can't shoot like him but wish I could think like him.

[Dubious Don #56333]

You have four pistol targets in front of you and these are the pistol instructions:

 

At Beep - With each pistol, engage each pistol target with at least 1 shot.

 

Can you shoot it: P1,P1,P2,P2,P3,P3,P4,P4,P4,P4 ?

 

Thanks!

Phantom

 

Pretty good stage; I can think of a half-dozen ways to shoot it correctly and it is VERY GF-friendly! Directions are simple and clear. The only people who seem to have a problem are those that start with the well can I...the description doesn't SAY I can do... people read way too much into a stage. THe above stage has no order, no prohibition against double or even tripletaps so...you can do those. ANY shooter, one-handed, two handed can do EXACTLY that. What's so different about gunfighter?......................wait for it.....................here it comes....................NOTHING!!!!!

 

All'a y'all git that left/right stuff outta yer haids. Left/right does...not...matter. Alternating...does...not...matter...I can shoot three out of the left then three out of the right and....here's the key, as long as I follow the STAGE instructions, not "well, he shot it this way" or "you have to shoot it the way a two handed shooter does...BOLLUX!

 

I'll add this issue to the EoT ROC agenda for discussion to see whether additional clarification might be added to the GF regs.

 

Please, no more rules.....what could be clearer, GF's shoot it the same way everybody else does.....pretty simple to me.....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Please, no more rules.....what could be clearer, GF's shoot it the same way everybody else does.....pretty simple to me.....

 

I hear that from time to time from spotters,

"Creeker, I don't want to spot for you. I have trouble with faster gunfighters"

I always tell them,

"You spot for other fast pistol shooters. I can't do anything they can't do. Just watch the targets - not how many pistols are out at a time"

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

 

Please, no more rules.....what could be clearer, GF's shoot it the same way everybody else does.....pretty simple to me.....

 

If anything IS added, it will likely just be a short addition to RO2 example regarding the "1st 5 shots/2nd 5 shots" conversion that must be done...that is obviously NOT clear to everyone (including some GF's and RO's)...if it was, I doubt this thread would have hit the Wire...let alone gone to 3 pages.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Same here...after one too many "P"s for cocking for that 6^thshot.

yup

I did that at my own state championship once upon a time

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Same here...after one too many "P"s for cocking for that 6^thshot.

 

What I try to do to avoid that is to consciously cock just one pistol for the first shot, then back to my usual double-cocking for the next four..

 

I don't like shooting split pistol strings as double duelist, makes me feel even slower than I already am.

[ELI BLUE,SASS#53766]

When I explained this stage to my posse I asked the only GF how he would do it and he responded "I have to shoot it just like any of you one handed shooters would, just like it is written." He did and went on to place 2nd in senior GF. Phantom wrote and Plum Creek hosted one the finest matches I have attended in years. If you attended this match and did not enjoy it, it's your own D*** fault.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

When I explained this stage to my posse I asked the only GF how he would do it and he responded "I have to shoot it just like any of you one handed shooters would, just like it is written." He did and went on to place 2nd in senior GF. Phantom wrote and Plum Creek hosted one the finest matches I have attended in years. If you attended this match and did not enjoy it, it's your own D*** fault.

Thanks Eli...and thanks for your service as a PM.

 

Phantom

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

L1, r2,

l3, r4,

l3, r4,

l3, r4,

l1, r2

 

Just my thought as I walked the stage.

[Wyatt]

or 4, 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 4, 1 that way most of the shots are closer together

 

 

pb

 

+1

 

Next time I practice I'm gonna try that one and 4, 2, 3, 1, 3, 1, 4, 2, 4, 2

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Some of the Gunfighters posting here should brush up on the category rules.

[Hawkshaw Fred SASS #36811]

 

Pretty good stage; I can think of a half-dozen ways to shoot it correctly and it is VERY GF-friendly! Directions are simple and clear. The only people who seem to have a problem are those that start with the well can I...the description doesn't SAY I can do... people read way too much into a stage. THe above stage has no order, no prohibition against double or even tripletaps so...you can do those. ANY shooter, one-handed, two handed can do EXACTLY that. What's so different about gunfighter?......................wait for it.....................here it comes....................NOTHING!!!!!

 

Well after reading 97 yes 97 posts it seems that there is STILL no consensus on this issue. While it is "Perfectly clear" to some <with these stage instructions> that a double tap is legal it is equally as clear to some that it is not! Two TGs, who are ROIIs and top shooters, spoken to in person, had opposing views on this question as well. It IS ambiguous enough that Pale Wolf is looking at a clarification in the rule book. I will no longer argue or debate WHICH is right or wrong. I will only say that from reading this thread for two days and the wide difference in opinions from across the country on this matter, that the rule and stage instructions were both open to too much interpretation.

 

Phantom, I will not rise to your bait. You refused to discuss this issue with at least one shooter, at the match where it WOULD matter, so I will politely refuse to debate it with you here AFTER the match where neither your NOR my opinion make any difference in the stage, or outcome of the match. The only FACT that I would interject is that your co-range officer told you PRIOR TO the match that the wording on this stage was problematic, yet it was not changed.

 

As for you being an A**hole that seems to be a matter of opinion too, also open to interpretation.

[Pit Bull Tex]

In my head I just tried to do what the stage said with each pistol engage each pistol target with at least one round.Maybe down the road I will learn.No GF did that.Hope I learn.Possum HELP.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Having tried to follow this thread I am convinced that I am just not smart enough to shoot gunfighter, so I am not going to try.

 

And while you guys are at it, could you go ahead and figure out a way we can make fusion power really work?

 

For scoring purposes, it seems such an easy thing to remember that every category must shoot the stage in a manner available to any other category. No other category could have shot this stage description in the manner the OP suggested without earning a "P".

 

Whether Phantom is an A-Hat or not is not really relevant and I would join him in any shoot any where any time. There is simply no more dedicated, passionate SASS member in the roster.

 

OY!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

 

 

Pretty good stage; I can think of a half-dozen ways to shoot it correctly and it is VERY GF-friendly! Directions are simple and clear. The only people who seem to have a problem are those that start with the well can I...the description doesn't SAY I can do... people read way too much into a stage. THe above stage has no order, no prohibition against double or even tripletaps so...you can do those. ANY shooter, one-handed, two handed can do EXACTLY that. What's so different about gunfighter?......................wait for it.....................here it comes....................NOTHING!!!!!

 

Well after reading 97 yes 97 posts it seems that there is STILL no consensus on this issue. While it is "Perfectly clear" to some <with these stage instructions> that a double tap is legal it is equally as clear to some that it is not! Two TGs, who are ROIIs and top shooters, spoken to in person, had opposing views on this question as well. It IS ambiguous enough that Pale Wolf is looking at a clarification in the rule book. I will no longer argue or debate WHICH is right or wrong. I will only say that from reading this thread for two days and the wide difference in opinions from across the country on this matter, that the rule and stage instructions were both open to too much interpretation.

 

Phantom, I will not rise to your bait. You refused to discuss this issue with at least one shooter, at the match where it WOULD matter, so I will politely refuse to debate it with you here AFTER the match where neither your NOR my opinion make any difference in the stage, or outcome of the match. The only FACT that I would interject is that your co-range officer told you PRIOR TO the match that the wording on this stage was problematic, yet it was not changed.

 

As for you being an A**hole that seems to be a matter of opinion too, also open to interpretation.

Funny that you say it was you that I was referring to...I didn't mention any names.

 

No, the wording was NOT problematic prior to the shoot. It was a bit fuzzy to ONE PM at the walk through...couldn't change the shooter's book at that point. Get your fact correct.

 

You asked if you could do the sequence, I told you no. You wanted to talk about it...I explained that you can not shoot a 5 shot string that Non-GFers couldn't...you keep argueing (like you are doing here), until I finally had to simply say NO...and then I left. What would YOU DO???? Stand there and wait till you ran outta breath and fainted???

 

I NEVER called you names...I did say to one official that we'll need to do better on the walk throughs and with our stage descriptions...We don't like conflicts like these. Shame on YOU for thinking we do...and for spreading a bunch of bad words...threats of NEVER coming back...just becuase you didn't get your way.

 

Once a decision is made for one shooter, I had to be consistant. Even if wrong...I couldn't let you do the string in a way that others were told they couldn't (3 or 4 other shooters). YOU WOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS!!!!!!

 

Go run a match...see how you do.

 

Phantom

[twelve mile REB]

The thing is with the wording the revolvers “we don’t shoot pistols” have been separated and required to be thought of individually.

With: sperative or tending to separate.

Each: considered individually.

So if we separate and consider each revolver individually as the stage description requires. Then (1L1R,2L2R,3L3R,4L4R any other engagement for the remaining rounds is legal). Can the two handed shooter shoot this sequence? Certainly, and probably most did shoot (r1,r2,r3,r4 any other/r1,r2,r3,r4 any other) the only difference is that they CHOSE to shoot one revolver at a time. As Pale Wolf stated “The order which firearms are used is irrelevant” and “it is the order of target engagement “ is entirely correct each revolver in the above case engaged the targets in the correct order and the correct sequence. Unless the stage description so states the shooter can not be required to shoot double duelist or duelist. Nor does the wording imply first five rounds and second five rounds. What it does say is shoot the revolvers separately and individually. Considered separately the 1-1,2-2,3-3,4-4-4-4 conforms exactly to the stage instructions as written. Of course any changes during the walk though would change or modify the above.

12

[Anvil Al #59168]

If you really understand GFer rules.

 

The stage as written was not a problem.

 

Could it be worded a little better. Yea. But if you understand GFer rules. There should not have been a problem.