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What's the call Gunfighters and Rules Gawds?


Phantom, SASS #54973

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OK, Phantom. Now that we see you understand this, let's visit the rule about staged pistols.

 

SHB, page 20, bullet point #7

 

7. Revolvers are returned to leather after the shooting string.

 

SHB page 21, bullet point # 6

6. Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered) with hammer down on a spent case or empty chamber at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., "move to next position and set gun on table or prop"). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

By the way, I think you and the whole crew did a wonderful job, Even if you did p*** me off at the very end. :blush:

 

There is a specific EXCEPTION to that in the GF regs:

 

 

 

Stage design may allow a competitor shooting Gunfighter Style to stage or restage revolvers between target sequences. If the stage scenario requires the use of another firearm between the revolver sequences or the shooter’s hands are otherwise constrained (e.g., rolling the dice between revolver sequences), the revolvers must be drawn and shot one at a time unless they can be safely staged rather than holstered. In this case, both revolvers may be employed at the same time for the first five rounds, safely restaged, and then employed at the same time again for the second five rounds.

 

REF also “Stage Conventions” – #8 – SHB p.20 / RO1 p.14

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Like Possum Skinner, Pale Wolf and so many others have said. No, No, and No.

 

As a gunfighter the first 5 shots regardless of which pistol they come from comprise the "first pistol" of a scenario. And the second 5 shots comprise the "second pistol".

 

I shot this match and I alternated pistols left pistol and then right pistol for all 10 shots. I shot the targets in this order 1,2,3,4,4 followed by 4,4,3,2,1.

 

This was a great match. You all did a GREAT JOB !!!

 

BTW, clarifications and other "details" that come out during a walk through are often not heard or remembered the same way by all. I would humbly suggest they be written on the copy of the stage that stays at the stage during the match so everyone sees the same thing.

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Like Possum Skinner, Pale Wolf and so many others have said. No, No, and No.

 

As a gunfighter the first 5 shots regardless of which pistol they come from comprise the "first pistol" of a scenario. And the second 5 shots comprise the "second pistol".

 

I shot this match and I alternated pistols left pistol and then right pistol for all 10 shots. I shot the targets in this order 1,2,3,4,4 followed by 4,4,3,2,1.

 

This was a great match. You all did a GREAT JOB !!!

 

BTW, clarifications and other "details" that come out during a walk through are often not heard or remembered the same way by all. I would humbly suggest they be written on the copy of the stage that stays at the stage during the match so everyone sees the same thing.

 

A most EXCELLENT suggestion!!

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I don't partictularily care for such a narrow interpretation of the SHB p.13

 

 

The Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario.

when there is no sequence specified. But, an imaginative GF'er could have shoot it thusly: (Using Red for Left pistol and Blue for Right pistol):

 

1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-and the last two shots on any target of the shooter's choosing. It might have a bit cumbersome for a GF'er, but a squaw-grip shooter, duelist or double-duelist could also have shot it in that same sequence. But need not have... so why should the GF'er be limited to only shooting in a sequence a 2-handed shooter can shoot? Again, in stage instructions or scenario that give no set sequence.

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There is a specific EXCEPTION to that in the GF regs:

 

 

 

REF also “Stage Conventions” – #8 – SHB p.20 / RO1 p.14

 

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. My mention was of an entirely different stage, that had instructions that I feel were in direct contradiction of SASS rules.

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I don't partictularily care for such a narrow interpretation of the SHB p.13

 

when there is no sequence specified. But, an imaginative GF'er could have shoot it thusly: (Using Red for Left pistol and Blue for Right pistol):

 

1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-and the last two shots on any target of the shooter's choosing. It might have a bit cumbersome for a GF'er, but a squaw-grip shooter, duelist or double-duelist could also have shot it in that same sequence. But need not have... so why should the GF'er be limited to only shooting in a sequence a 2-handed shooter can shoot? Again, in stage instructions or scenario that give no set sequence.

 

Griff,

Unless one of your last two shots were on target 4, you earned a "P". You are still reading it as "first pistol...second pistol...". That's not really the way it works. It's "first 5 shots...second 5 shots..."

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I don't partictularily care for such a narrow interpretation of the SHB p.13

 

when there is no sequence specified. But, an imaginative GF'er could have shoot it thusly: (Using Red for Left pistol and Blue for Right pistol):

 

1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-and the last two shots on any target of the shooter's choosing. It might have a bit cumbersome for a GF'er, but a squaw-grip shooter, duelist or double-duelist could also have shot it in that same sequence.

Not without risking a "P" (see post #41)

 

But need not have... so why should the GF'er be limited to only shooting in a sequence a 2-handed shooter can shoot?

Because the GF regs say so.

 

Again, in stage instructions or scenario that give no set sequence.

There IS a "set sequence" in the OP.

 

Did you get my reply to your PM??

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Having tried to follow this thread I am convinced that I am just not smart enough to shoot gunfighter, so I am not going to try.

 

And while you guys are at it, could you go ahead and figure out a way we can make fusion power really work?

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NO!!!!! A gunfighter CANNOT shoot the stage in a way the other shooters cannot. A two-handed shooter would get a "P" every time shooting it that way. When a scenario says, "first pistol.....second pistol.....", we HAVE to take it to mean "first 5 shots..... second 5 shots....."! This is a VERY misunderstood rule, but it is not complicated. However, it does get over-thought and made complicated.

 

Pit, you did NOT have to shoot it double-duelist, although that is a perfectly legitimate method. I would have shot it, R2,L1,R4,L3,R4,L3,R4,L1,R3,L2 just to see if the counters' heads would explode.

 

BUT, as simple as the scenario was, it should have been re-worded for clarity.

 

Possum

+1

 

 

Some of the Gunfighters posting here should brush up on the category rules.

 

 

If you are going to shoot GFer. Know GFer rules.

 

There is no first pistol 2nd pistol. It's first 5 shots, 2nd 5 shots.

 

 

 

Just as long as ALL calls was made on ALL shooters that got it wrong. Then I am good to go.

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I am just dumb.After I talk to Phantom,I did not have a problem shooting the stage.I have not shot GF that long.I may not have been the one that Phantom was talking about but if I was I am sorry if it was a problem.I try to learn as much as I can at shoots.

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Gunfighters always follow the shooting sequence. It matters not which pistol the round comes out of. I would have shot it 1-2-3-4-4 and 4-4-3-2-1

 

I double cock and I change leads often as necessary during a sequence. More than once, I have left the spotters in a huddle scratching their heads.

 

Watch the targets, not the pistols.

 

+1 As another double cock, I would have done the same sequence.

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I am just dumb.After I talk to Phantom,I did not have a problem shooting the stage.I have not shot GF that long.I may not have been the one that Phantom was talking about but if I was I am sorry if it was a problem.I try to learn as much as I can at shoots.

Tex - you were fine...no worries my friend.

 

;)

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You have four pistol targets in front of you and these are the pistol instructions:

 

At Beep - With each pistol, engage each pistol target with at least 1 shot.

 

Can you shoot it: P1,P1,P2,P2,P3,P3,P4,P4,P4,P4 ?

 

Thanks!

Phantom

 

 

 

I don't partictularily care for such a narrow interpretation of the SHB p.13

 

when there is no sequence specified. But, an imaginative GF'er could have shoot it thusly: (Using Red for Left pistol and Blue for Right pistol):

 

1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-and the last two shots on any target of the shooter's choosing. It might have a bit cumbersome for a GF'er, but a squaw-grip shooter, duelist or double-duelist could also have shot it in that same sequence. But need not have... so why should the GF'er be limited to only shooting in a sequence a 2-handed shooter can shoot? Again, in stage instructions or scenario that give no set sequence.

Griff,

Unless one of your last two shots were on target 4, you earned a "P". You are still reading it as "first pistol...second pistol...". That's not really the way it works. It's "first 5 shots...second 5 shots..."

 

 

 

See comments below.

 

Not without risking a "P" (see post #41)

 

But need not have... so why should the GF'er be limited to only shooting in a sequence a 2-handed shooter can shoot?

Because the GF regs say so.

 

Again, in stage instructions or scenario that give no set sequence.

There IS a "set sequence" in the OP.

 

Did you get my reply to your PM??

 

Yes, I did, and understand the issue much better. However, I didn't read the sequence in the OP as part of the stage instructions, but rather, a question as to whether that sequence would be legal under the rules. Maybe Phantom can clarify (I wasn't there and have NO dog in this hunt, as I don't even shoot GF all that often, but several folks I time do... and want to be sure when I make a call. This is what I read as the stage instruction for the pistol:

"At Beep - With each pistol, engage each pistol target with at least 1 shot." No sequence, as the next line seemed to be a question... and while I now understand that double tapping your way thru it would NOT meet the requirements of the instructions for any BUT a GF'er, it becomes illegal for a GF'er to shoot in that particular sequence. However, with the assumption that there was no sequence in the stage instructions, again, WHY wouldn't the sequence I gave meet that instruction. For either a GF, Duelist, 2X-Duelist or Squaw Gripper such as Phantom!

 

Ok, as modified, (and how I originally wrote it out), the following meets the criteria for any style shooter and the stage instructions as understood: 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-and one of the last two shots on target 4, the other on any target of the shooter's choosing. As shot with that sequence, whether you look at it from a 1st pistol/2nd pistol standpoint or left/right pistol, each pistol has engage each target at least 1 shot. I'd contest a "P".

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See comments below.

Yes, I did, and understand the issue much better. However, I didn't read the sequence in the OP as part of the stage instructions, but rather, a question as to whether that sequence would be legal under the rules. Maybe Phantom can clarify (I wasn't there and have NO dog in this hunt, as I don't even shoot GF all that often, but several folks I time do... and want to be sure when I make a call. This is what I read as the stage instruction for the pistol:

"At Beep - With each pistol, engage each pistol target with at least 1 shot." No sequence, as the next line seemed to be a question... and while I now understand that double tapping your way thru it would NOT meet the requirements of the instructions for any BUT a GF'er, it becomes illegal for a GF'er to shoot in that particular sequence. However, with the assumption that there was no sequence in the stage instructions, again, WHY wouldn't the sequence I gave meet that instruction. For either a GF, Duelist, 2X-Duelist or Squaw Gripper such as Phantom!

 

Ok, as modified, (and how I originally wrote it out), the following meets the criteria for any style shooter and the stage instructions as understood: 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-and one of the last two shots on target 4, the other on any target of the shooter's choosing. As shot with that sequence, whether you look at it from a 1st pistol/2nd pistol standpoint or left/right pistol, each pistol has engage each target at least 1 shot. I'd contest a "P".

And you have been correct and should not have been awarded a P if shot as you mentioned (one hit on 4 and any other target).

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Pale Wolf, since I am one of the shooters at the tip of this issue and the one you replied to, I STILL do not understand how shooting the double tap with the stage instructions that were given is a "P". I KNOW you replied and I have found that the gunfighter must shoot the stage EXACTLY as a two handed shooter does---HOWEVER as soon as the GF draws his second revolver while still having a loaded revolver in his other hand IT IS NOT THE EXACTLY SAME. When a scenario calls for an 'alternating sweep' and a GF uses both guns at the same time--it is not EXACTLY the same.

 

Secondly I have been through the SHB ROI and ROII and can find no reference to the information you quoted for me: 'He must mentally change "with each pistol" or "with 1st revolver...then with 2nd

revolver" instructions to "first 5 shots...next 5 shots".' Can you please tell me where to find this quote?

 

HAD the instructions stated "with first revolver" or "WITH first 5 shots" there would be no issue, but they DID NOT. NOR would there have been an issue if it had said "No double taps" but it did not.

 

I agree that a GF cannot double tap when the stage instructions say 2 identical sweeps or two sweeps of any kind BUT THIS WAS NOT SWEEPS it was a simple round count.

 

In this instance the term "each pistol" DOES NOT imply first pistol then second pistol any more than it implies must be shot double dualist. If the term each pistol is to mean one then the other; exactly when CAN a gunfighter shoot in the questioned manner. If he must shoot a scenario EXACTLY as a two handed shooter does then the gunfighter goes away and has to become a double dualist, because any time a GF is shooting two revolvers at the same time it IS NOT EXACTLY the same. I don't think this is the intent or desire (with some exceptions of extreme GF haters) of most anyone in the sport.

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Hack Shaw, while the wording might be different, the term "With each pistol" still translates to first five, second five for the gun fighter. Lets try to simplify the thought process.

 

The instructions say each of the four targets must be engaged at least once, with each pistol. However the non gunfighter chooses to do that, and satisfies the requirements, would be your first five shots. Because the rules state that a shooter may not reholster a pistol with the intent of drawing it again for more shots, the pistol must be shot dry before being returned to leather. So the non gunfighter draws his/her first pistol, and engages the 4 targets at least once each, with one target getiing two engagements. They then reholster, or not, and bring the second revolver to bear. They may shoot the targets again in the same order, or backwards, or double tap a different target. It doesn't matter, so long as each of the 4 targets is engaged at least once, with one target engaged twice.

 

The gunfighter comes along and has to comply with the same instructions. If they choose to shoot it double duelist, then it is pretty straight forward. If they choose to shoot it gunfighter, then first five shots have to comply with the same instructions that the non-gunfighter was charged with, same with second five shots.

 

Does this clear anything up for you Hank?

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One way to look at it is that whether you are GFer or not, the ten bullets have to hit the same targets in the same order. Except for the fact that there is no pause between shots 5 and 6, a spotter should not need to know if he is spotting for a GFer or not. When stage instructions give you some leeway in choice, that makes a difference for all shooters, but the GFer still needs to hit the targets in the same order as allowed for a non-GFer. It does not matter which barrel each bullet comes out of.

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A gunfighter does not have to shoot targets in the same order that another shooter has (or will), but they must shoot the targets in an order AVAILABLE to other shooters. Ten pistol shots are a shooting string just like ten rifle shots are a shooting string.

 

Today I shot a stage where instructions said to shoot targets 1 and 2 at least once with first pistol shoot target 3 with second pistol five times. (Yes, it is a fairly common error for a stage writer to say "with first pistol, etc.") While every other shooter shot their first five rounds either 1-2-2-2-2 or 1-1-1-2-2 or another variation with only one target change, I shot 1-2-1-2-1 which is four target changes. The targets were spaced fairly close together and for a gunfighter it made sense. If I had been shooting two handed or duelist, I'd have shot it like everyone else. If other shooters had wanted to shoot it like me, they could have. The order was available to them...if they'd lost their minds. :)

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Gooby,

 

My question to you again is WHERE do I find in SHB ROI or ROII that 'with each pistol' translates into two 5 shot sequences? I have NO ISSUE with following a rule---IF it is the same rule EVERYONE follows and it is where EVERYONE can see it and IS a RULE NOT just an opinion.

 

Hank

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Pale Wolf, since I am one of the shooters at the tip of this issue and the one you replied to, I STILL do not understand how shooting the double tap with the stage instructions that were given is a "P". I KNOW you replied and I have found that the gunfighter must shoot the stage EXACTLY as a two handed shooter does---HOWEVER as soon as the GF draws his second revolver while still having a loaded revolver in his other hand IT IS NOT THE EXACTLY SAME.

When a scenario calls for an 'alternating sweep' and a GF uses both guns at the same time--it is not EXACTLY the same.

It is the order of target engagement with shots fired that IS the same...the order in which firearms are used is irrelevant.

In an alternating sweep (let's say 10 shots continuous alternating on two targets from the left):

a NON-GF must shoot it 1-2-1-2-1 / 2-1-2-1-2

A GUNFIGHTER must engage the targets in that SAME ORDER: 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 ...

The only difference being that the NON-GF alternates with a single revolver; then switches revolvers mid-sweep...

target engagement order is exactly the same for both shooters.

A GF would likely shoot the LEFT target with the LEFT pistol...RIGHT target with the RIGHT pistol.

 

In the OP, shooters using any shooting style have the SAME options re: order of engagement...as long as they put 5 shots on the 4 targets with the 1st five shots; then 5 shots on the 4 targets with the 2nd five shots.

"With each pistol" implies TWO back to back (NOT simultaneous) 5-shot strings on the four targets.

 

Secondly I have been through the SHB ROI and ROII and can find no reference to the information you quoted for me: 'He must mentally change "with each pistol" or "with 1st revolver...then with 2nd revolver" instructions to "first 5 shots...next 5 shots".' Can you please tell me where to find this quote?

It's not stated in any of the rules...it is the most commonly used method of explaining how a GF must comply with the requirement to "...shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario."

That applies when the "sequence" refers to target engagement...but NOT to the order in which the revolvers must be used to do so ...which is why GF shooters are allowed to shoot GF-style even when the stage instructions specify "first pistol...second pistol" or "left revolver...right revolver" (see previous ref to "Stage Conventions")

 

HAD the instructions stated "with first revolver" or "WITH first 5 shots" there would be no issue, but they DID NOT. NOR would there have been an issue if it had said "No double taps" but it did not.

I agree that a GF cannot double tap when the stage instructions say 2 identical sweeps or two sweeps of any kind BUT THIS WAS NOT SWEEPS it was a simple round count.

Round count was FIVE shots "with each pistol" on the four targets (i.e. two consecutive "5 on 4"s)

 

In this instance the term "each pistol" DOES NOT imply first pistol then second pistol any more than it implies must be shot double dualist. If the term each pistol is to mean one then the other; exactly when CAN a gunfighter shoot in the questioned manner. If he must shoot a scenario EXACTLY as a two handed shooter does then the gunfighter goes away and has to become a double dualist, because any time a GF is shooting two revolvers at the same time it IS NOT EXACTLY the same. I don't think this is the intent or desire (with some exceptions of extreme GF haters) of most anyone in the sport.

See first comment above.

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Phantom - no good deed goes unpunished - you did well - that is such a GF friendly stage.

Your instructions were clear enough and any GF should have known how to shoot it.

 

Agree with Pale Wolf - everyone not just gunfighters should take the ROI and ROII classes

 

I would have considered shooting it 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 if I were double cocking or altenating - starting with left pistol.

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Actually only a gunfighter is confined to "not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver

sequence." I'd venture to guess it is because a gunfighter is the only one who might be tempted to do so (when a split pistol stage presents itself.)

 

I don't recommend it for non gunfighters (if for no other reason than it is slow), but if a shooter were to pull their first pistol, shoot four, holster and pull their second gun, they could shoot their second gun, then come back to their first gun to finish the pistol string.

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Gooby,

 

My question to you again is WHERE do I find in SHB ROI or ROII that 'with each pistol' translates into two 5 shot sequences? I have NO ISSUE with following a rule---IF it is the same rule EVERYONE follows and it is where EVERYONE can see it and IS a RULE NOT just an opinion.

 

Hank

 

The only example given in the rules regarding "...same sequence..." is in the RO2...page 10.

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Abilene,

I sure hate it when it gets interpreted like that! At the SW regional last year (or the year before) there was a stage that a gunfighter had no less than THREE very knowledgable, very experienced shooters interpret scenario wording that way. He was told had had to shoot it double duelist. He was so frustrated he almost quit gunfighter.

I ran into that alot in my travels through many states shooting as a gunfighter

its like you said: it is pretty simple, AND very over thought

target order is just like any category, and many folks dont know that gunfighters do NOT have to alternate shots any more

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I am not much on setting pistols down just because of the time factor and the must think factor. I usually shoot split pistol stages double duelist.

 

Same here...after one too many "P"s for cocking for that 6thshot. :blush:

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Phantom - no good deed goes unpunished - you did well - that is such a GF friendly stage.

Your instructions were clear enough and any GF should have known how to shoot it.

 

Agree with Pale Wolf - everyone not just gunfighters should take the ROI and ROII classes

 

I would have considered shooting it 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 if I were double cocking or altenating - starting with left pistol.

Red, I AM a current ROI & II but like Pale Wolf said It is NOT IN THE RULE BOOK ANYWHERE! So that leaves it open to interpretation and from this thread alone there are a number of interpretations and opinions on this issue. But the ONLY FACT is "It is NOT in the rule book anywhere". <referring to 'with each pistol' meaning first 5 shots then the second five shots>. Like I said I have no problem with a RULE but as opinions differ widely I do have a problem with enforcing opinions.

ROII Page 10 DOES state that "Shall engage the targets in EXACTLY the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario" NOWHERE in the in this scenario did it say first pistol or first five rounds if so then this would be a moot point. But if this is such a hot controversy it appears that the RULE needs to be clarified for ALL <since there are several differing opinions> or maybe we ALL needs to take a course in proper stage writing; as I was taught not to read anything into a stage that isn't there, and CLEARLY eith each pistol meaning first 5 shots is NOT there!(at least NOT in the rulebooks anywhere).

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No...a GF shooter must engage the same as any other shooter regarding the shooting order.

 

In regards to the above quote by Pale Wolf Brunelle, I believe he has forgotten more about the rules than most people know. So if he says it I believe it. I don't read the rules with a fine toothed comb because I shoot for fun and don't really care if I get a procedural. However, some people like to be exact and rules are made for a good reason and to make the judging easier and equitable. After reading the original poster's comment the only thing to say is it wasn't explained well enough or well-written enough. I would have said YES as the answer until I read the answers of people who take pride in knowing the rules. But I would also make the comment "this ain't rocket science" so why make it that way. I would have shot it L1R1, L2R2, L3R3, L4R4, L4R4. I shot each pistol in the same sequence as a two-handed shooter would have shot it, I just shot it with two pistols in the air at the same time. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. Please repeat where that is wrong. My head hurts enough already from reading all the preceding comments.

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Jasper,

You make my very point---even after reading all of these opinions you would have shot it the same way some of the folks on here say is WRONG! and in this match you would have gotten a procedural <and just a guess here you would not see why and not be very happy about it>

I DO NOT disagree with Pale Wolfs opinion, but he also stated that the opinion that 'with each pistol' means the first pistol or first 5 shots IS NOT in the rule book.

It seemed pretty clear and straight forward to me too, just like it did to you!

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I guess my head don't hurt enough. Until I recognized that a 2-handed shooter or duelist/double duelist couldn't double tap it and meet the stage instructions, it seemed logical to shoot it in that manner. However, once that was pointed out;

 

• When a stage calls for 10 revolver rounds in a single sequence or the use of only one revolver for the stage, the Gunfighter may draw both revolvers and engage the targets. The Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario.

Since, according the the abbreviated instructions, a 2-handed or duelist shooter would NOT be able to complete the instruction by double-tapping the targets, as they would run out of bullets in the first gun on target 3, by inference, the gunfighter cannot use that sequence to complete the instruction. Simply stated, because a gunfighter double tapping each target, also cannot reach target # four with his first 5 shots.

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You have four pistol targets in front of you and these are the pistol instructions:

 

At Beep - With each pistol, engage each pistol target with at least 1 shot.

 

Can you shoot it: P1,P1,P2,P2,P3,P3,P4,P4,P4,P4 ?

 

Thanks!

Phantom

 

Although I've read most of the post, my original and conculsive reply to Phantom's question in his OP is: NOPE!

 

I like the way Buck D. Law phrased it in his post #55 stating that the GF can only shot those targets in a sequence that is AVAILABLE to other shooting categories.

 

Of which I would have alternated each shot in this manner:

L1

R2

L3

R4

L4

R4

L4

R3

L2

R1

 

Just my way of thinkin!

 

..........Widder

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