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Nate Kiowa Jones #6765

AMMO CONSPIRACY

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Based on the Congressional testimony last month, the most recent GAO audit of ammo supplies held by DHS, and ATK's (the parent company of Federal Cartridge Co.) just-released statement, what Tarheel Rifleman says is correct. There has been an RFQ (Request For Quote) from DHS for UP TO 1.6 billion rounds of various calibers of ammunition used by the various departments under the DHS umbrella. RFQs are the Feds way of locking in prices when purchasing ammo in bulk and over multiple years. Actual numbers delivered have been in very small quantities so far. Somewhere along the lines of single digit percentages of the amount requested. And, the total DHS itself projects to actually buy is in line with their purchases over the previous five years. I don't smell any conspiracys here.

 

ATK states that the vast majority (95% or more by their reckoning) of the ammo they are producing is for the civilian marketplace. They categorically deny that they are ignoring the civilian maker in favor of government contracts. They say that demand has simply outstripped their ability to supply. Again, nothing here raises the bovine by-product alarms.

 

In light of all these factors, I have to conclude that it's us hoarding and panic-buying that is the root cause of these shortages. Once the panic stops and the hoarders stop over-buying, manufacturers should be able to eventually catch up. If we all just calm down, this too shall pass.

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Just industry 'scuttlebutt' that likely as not has some basis in fact.But I can't say definitively

The old "Where there's smoke, there's fire" argument. From a friend of an associate. And it's on the internet. And it's anti-government. From an FFL.

 

With provenance like that, who needs facts?

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This is the point where discussion usually slips into argument and then into name calling.

 

In the old days it was hard to gin up support for a conspiracy without facts. So far I haven't heard any facts supporting the alleged conspiracy, but that doesn't seem to be stopping anybody from claiming a conspiracy exists. I guess we have entered a post fact world.

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This is the point where discussion usually slips into argument and then into name calling.

 

In the old days it was hard to gin up support for a conspiracy without facts. So far I haven't heard any facts supporting the alleged conspiracy, but that doesn't seem to be stopping anybody from claiming a conspiracy exists. I guess we have entered a post fact world.

 

 

I think I'll invest in some tin-foil hats. :)

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Anyone who thinks that the feds don't influence the market in any area in which it makes large bulk purchases is being naive. This goes for ammo as well as any other commodity. Given that the federal agents claim to use several times more practice ammo than our military does, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the current administration is attempting to manipulate the market to limit ammo to private citizens.

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Anyone who thinks that the feds don't influence the market in any area in which it makes large bulk purchases is being naive. This goes for ammo as well as any other commodity. Given that the federal agents claim to use several times more practice ammo than our military does, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the current administration is attempting to manipulate the market to limit ammo to private citizens.

Problem is, your conspiracy theory falls apart. First the ammo companies selling the gvmt ammo say the percent is not abnormal. Second it does not explain non gvmt calibers being in short supply. Lastly it does not explain extreme shortage od 22 ammo.

 

 

If you still have doubts, read what the editor of the NRA American Rifleman May edition has to say. It is not the government, it is shooters buying a lifetime supply of ammo.

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Actually, I did not allege a conspiracy, but merely made an observation on the Feds role in the marketplace. However, if the ammo companies are either producing or gearing up to produce ammo for the gvmt, that could easily explain the shortage of non- gvmt calibers, including .22. If the ammo companies are working 24/7 producing ammo, where is it all going? I am not seeing any ammo coming into my gun shop or the big box stores either.

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Actually, I did not allege a conspiracy, but merely made an observation on the Feds role in the marketplace. However, if the ammo companies are either producing or gearing up to produce ammo for the gvmt, that could easily explain the shortage of non- gvmt calibers, including .22. If the ammo companies are working 24/7 producing ammo, where is it all going? I am not seeing any ammo coming into my gun shop or the big box stores either.

At least two large ammo companies with the new basic ordering agreements say their gvmt business is no more than in the past and likely less in the future. They should know more than internet rumors. Did you read what the NRA says who is at fault, fellow shooters buying lifetime ammo supplies?

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"We have found the enemy, and it is us." Nah, it's Bush's fault.

 

 

 

Time to bury this dead nag.

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At least two large ammo companies with the new basic ordering agreements say their gvmt business is no more than in the past and likely less in the future. They should know more than internet rumors. Did you read what the NRA says who is at fault, fellow shooters buying lifetime ammo supplies?

I have no intention of getting into a back-and-forth with you. You can believe whatever you want. BUT, without citing your sources for the above statement about "large ammo companies", your statement is no more than an "internet rumor." Boon Doggle is right, time to move on to more productive issues.

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I have no intention of getting into a back-and-forth with you. You can believe whatever you want. BUT, without citing your sources for the above statement about "large ammo companies", your statement is no more than an "internet rumor." Boon Doggle is right, time to move on to more productive issues.

Instead of moving on, I suggest we stop internet conspiracy theroies with facts.

 

Here are examples of what large ammo companies are saying

 

http://www.hornady.com/support/availability

http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx

 

Most ammunition companies have posted equivalent statements.

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Totally agree GC. I have had NO problem buying all the ammo I need from my two suppliers. This internet rumor nonsense is just that!

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It's like a stampede, once the cattle get spooked it takes a while for them to run themselves out of steam.

 

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I've read this thread with interest, and tired to take in , objectively, the views and opinions of those who site "Facts" about this and that. I originally stated that the American people (the Hoarders) were indeed purchasing more ammo than they needed or would use, and I am glad that they are doing so... I also stated that the gov't was buying more than it needed... even after this discussion, I am not convinced otherwise..........but the REAL object of the post was this:

 

"....this administration is the most untrustworthy and Un-American that I've ever seen."

 

If anyone believes for a minute that this administration would not do or say ANYTHING that would help it to achieve it's goals, then IMO, that person is naive. I don't believe that this line of thinking is anywhere near being a Conspiracy Theorist. If the American People.... from Left to Right, don't wake up soon and find some common ground to rally support for the common good, then we are in for a very long dry spell.

 

Snakebite

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Speaking of dead horses...anybody watch the Derby?

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Well said Snakebite. It is becoming increasingly clear that in this administration the ends justify the means and it will do almost anything in pursuit of its anti-gun agenda. After the election, I, as well as many others, bought ammo. However, I don't consider myself a hoarder, but rather a prudent purchaser.

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I have talked to a few people at places that sell ammo here in CT. They do get shipments in. But people are buying all they can when it does come in. Thus if your not there when it comes in it is sold within hours.

I have seen plenty of 22lr ammo for sale at rediculous prices. These are the profiteers who buy up most of it just to keep the supply low so they can sell at these prices.

The other reason for the shelves being bare is due to the fact that firearms were flying off the shelves so fast. These people also are buying ammo when they can find it. One of our local gun shops had sold over 20,000 guns in the months of March and April due to all the supposed laws going thru.

With all this panic buying there has to be shortages. I can't even find a new Rossi 92 for anywhere near the price I would have paid in March.

That's why I am going to wait til things calm down before I get into shooting. I can't afford the price wanted now.

People need to stop panicking and settle down.

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The facts are the DHS is arming itself at a alarming rate.

 

In addition to the 1.6 billion rounds of small arms ammunition previously commented on they have also purchased 2,700 Mine Resistant Armor Protected Vehicles (MRAP).

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/obama-dhs-purchases-2700-light-armored-tanks-to-go-with-their-1-6-billion-bullet-stockpile/

 

 

The DRUDGE REPORT reported today that the DHS has released a market survey asking companies if they can provide 2 million bullets within 30-60 day period.

 

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-seeks-millions-more-rounds-of-ammunition/

 

The DHS has attempted to explain away the 1.6 billion round purchases as training and duty needs over a five year period. But why does the DHS need armored cars to patrol American cities and additional 2,000,000 rounds of ammunition within a 60 day period?

 

As a student of history it is easy to see that we are reliving the same events that occurred in the 1850's with now, as then, the major issue being States rights vs. Federal authority. History records that the final straw that split the Union was Lincoln being elected President. If the Republicans field another non-conservative candidate in 2016 and the results being determined in 3 key states electorial colleges will it be the final straw that will split the Union again?

 

No doubt that these are very troubling times and the fence sitters will soon have to choose which side they will be on.

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Anyone who thinks that the feds don't influence the market in any area in which it makes large bulk purchases is being naive. This goes for ammo as well as any other commodity. Given that the federal agents claim to use several times more practice ammo than our military does, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the current administration is attempting to manipulate the market to limit ammo to private citizens.

Where do you get that the DHS claims to use more then the military?? That is practice and carry and is a little over 1000 rounds per person.

 

Most of us here shoot more than 1000 rounds a year easy in practice. If I go to every match my local club has I'll shoot 4000+ rounds in matches alone each year. If my SASS number were truly indicative of the number of cowboy shooters thats 1.9 billion rounds in the same period if everyone shot the same number of rounds in SASS alone. I think in reality we're probably more like .6 billion though but that doesn't count practce rounds either. Add in all the other shooting sports and hunters and I think WE use more than DHS ever would.

 

I'm just taking a swag since I'm not sure what the USAF, Army or USMC yearly accessions are but just doing pistol ribbon quals is some where around 10.8 million rounds a year or 54 million in a 5 year period. That's just for ribbon qualifications assuming no reshoots. As a former Navy small arms instructor for helicopter aircrews some of our regular qualification shoots would be in excess of 9 million in the same period. That does not include what the ships use in small arms or what SPECOPS uses. I can assure you that the SEALS shoot VAST amounts of ammo yearly. I believe the DoD yearly ammo allocation is 1.8 billion rounds or 9 billion rounds in 5 years.

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Where do you get that the DHS claims to use more then the military?? That is practice and carry and is a little over 1000 rounds per person.

 

Most of us here shoot more than 1000 rounds a year easy in practice. If I go to every match my local club has I'll shoot 4000+ rounds in matches alone each year. If my SASS number were truly indicative of the number of cowboy shooters thats 1.9 billion rounds in the same period if everyone shot the same number of rounds in SASS alone. I think in reality we're probably more like .6 billion though but that doesn't count practce rounds either. Add in all the other shooting sports and hunters and I think WE use more than DHS ever would.

 

I'm just taking a swag since I'm not sure what the USAF, Army or USMC yearly accessions are but just doing pistol ribbon quals is some where around 10.8 million rounds a year or 54 million in a 5 year period. That's just for ribbon qualifications assuming no reshoots. As a former Navy small arms instructor for helicopter aircrews some of our regular qualification shoots would be in excess of 9 million in the same period. That does not include what the ships use in small arms or what SPECOPS uses. I can assure you that the SEALS shoot VAST amounts of ammo yearly. I believe the DoD yearly ammo allocation is 1.8 billion rounds or 9 billion rounds in 5 years.

 

But why does the DHS need armored cars to patrol American cities and additional 2,000,000 rounds of ammunition within a 60 day period?

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Just a "thought".........you can't find .22LR either.....are the Fed's buying that up too?

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I can't answer the armored car question unless they are buying them for some kind of rapid response teams.

2M rounds doesn't seem that much to me. Maybe lessons learned shooting from the Boston Bombers?

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Can't find anything but shotgun loads with any regularity.

Locally people are lining up at Bass Pro, Walmart and Gander Mtn when the trucks come in and buying as it's delivered. Some of it not even making it into the store.

 

Not so much the feds as it is civvies hoarding and panic buying.

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But why does the DHS need armored cars to patrol American cities and additional 2,000,000 rounds of ammunition within a 60 day period?

 

 

I haven'ty seen any patrols. Have you seen any patrols?

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Good point about Cowboy Action Shooters using more ammo per capita than the Gov't folks.... but keep in mind that "Shooting" is our prime and main objective. It is what we do every week end. No doubt that the other gun games use a good deal of ammo too. I doubt that the average gun owner shoots as much ammo in a year as we do in a week... in fact, much less than that even. On the other hand, our Gov't people, and LEOs have... or should have something other than shooting as their main objective. Dealing with people is the major part of their job, and using "People skills" should be the first line of approach, the point of a gun should be the last. Knowing how to use a gun is certainly an important part of all Law enforcement and Gov't enforcement agencies, but we need to make sure that we keep up the training in all areas of dealing with the public... not just in the area of shooting. Fortunately the USA does not use "Shock Troops" against it's own citizens. I still do not see the need for such a high emphasis on firepower inside our country..... the military, YES, but we are not fighting a war against our own citizens.

 

Snakebite

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I still do not see the need for such a high emphasis on firepower inside our country..... the military, YES, but we are not fighting a war against our own citizens.

 

Snakebite

So what does FEMA need with all those coffins?

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It snowed here Friday and was miserable Saturday so the annual I was going to shoot was cancelled. Bored I went to my local Brass Pro to shoot a few rounds. Before going in to the range, I talked to a couple of guys behind the counter. They told me that they are still receiving ammunition, but it is being snatched up as fast as it comes in. On Saturday they got a surprise shipment of 22. It was all gone within 2 hours. All of the sales were to civilians. Apparently the doomsday prep crowd is hording 22 LR as fast as it shows up.

 

I don't think we have anyone to blame but ourselves for the current shortage.

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"Apparently the doomsday prep crowd is hording 22 LR as fast as it shows up."

 

Dang! I wish I'd been there when they came in. I gave one of Grandsons a nice Remington 581. He said he could not find any 22 ammo, so I gave him several boxes. I forgot to "Hoard" on 22 RF...

 

Snakebite

 

sb

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It snowed here Friday and was miserable Saturday so the annual I was going to shoot was cancelled. Bored I went to my local Brass Pro to shoot a few rounds. Before going in to the range, I talked to a couple of guys behind the counter. They told me that they are still receiving ammunition, but it is being snatched up as fast as it comes in. On Saturday they got a surprise shipment of 22. It was all gone within 2 hours. All of the sales were to civilians. Apparently the doomsday prep crowd is hording 22 LR as fast as it shows up.

 

I don't think we have anyone to blame but ourselves for the current shortage.

 

Bart, just for your information, you have "doomsday preppers" and you have "preppers", and there is a MAJOR difference between the two! But I totally agree that between the two of them I'm sure that they are taking huge amounts of ammo off the shelf's.

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I haven'ty seen any patrols. Have you seen any patrols?

 

Well since you are a Federal Agent where are those 2,700 armored vehicles beign kept and what is their purpose?

 

And yes I do see armored cars in use in large cities on the news regularly.

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Well since you are a Federal Agent where are those 2,700 armored vehicles beign kept and what is their purpose?

 

And yes I do see armored cars in use in large cities on the news regularly.

 

 

Well, if you see them on the news, then you know where they're being kept. Oh, wait! "The News" always gets it wrong, doesn't it? So those armored cars aren't really armored cars. Or are they? And their purpose? Why, to fire off all that DHS ammo and fill all those FEMA coffins, of course.

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i'm putting money aside and waiting til fall when people need to buy kids school clothes and shotgun shells.

But since they spent their money (and running up their credit card bill) hoarding all that ammo, powder, and primers, some (probably a lot) will be selling it at reasonable prices. Come Chistmas time, it will probably be the same thing, and especially January 2014 when the Christmas credit card payments are due.

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Well, if you see them on the news, then you know where they're being kept. Oh, wait! "The News" always gets it wrong, doesn't it? So those armored cars aren't really armored cars. Or are they? And their purpose? Why, to fire off all that DHS ammo and fill all those FEMA coffins, of course.

 

 

 

Well B.B. you may be right.

 

It has been widely reported that the Department of Homeland Security (through the U.S. Army Forces Command) recently retrofitted 2,717 of these ‘Mine Resistant Protected’ vehicles for service on the streets of the United States.

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/obama-dhs-purchases-2700-light-armored-tanks-to-go-with-their-1-6-billion-bullet-stockpile/

 

It seems that the Department of Homeland Security is using 16 military-style, mine-resistant ambush protected vehicles for use during "high-risk warrants," according to an official spokesman.

 

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3#ixzz2SWvgfnbo

 

So that leaves 2,701 vehicles.

 

Here this report should help you;

 

Seems we have all been taken in by a Internet hoax. I sure my Senators and Representative in D.C. sure feel silly.

 

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41713_Fact_Checking-_Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks

 

But wait someone forgot to tell Ross Feinstein, a spokesman for DHS.

 

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130305-dhs-acquires-2-700-mraps

 

Worse the DHS own news service got suckered in.

 

"RT now reports that DHS has acquired over 2,700 MARPs to be used on missions inside United States."

 

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130305-dhs-acquires-2-700-mraps

 

But we should relax. It's just for use on the really bad guys....

 

Feinstein said “[The vehicle] is used in the execution of high-risk warrants — including drug trafficking, smuggling, and contraband.”

 

Wow. To think there are so many violent pards out there with Federal arrest warrants that 2,717 armored vehicles are needed.

 

But how that can be…it is all a big elaborate hoax.

 

 

 

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Bart, just for your information, you have "doomsday preppers" and you have "preppers", and there is a MAJOR difference between the two! But I totally agree that between the two of them I'm sure that they are taking huge amounts of ammo off the shelf's.

What is the difference?

 

Hoarding is a sign of fear. It might be fear of something tangible. When I was a pup America was threatened with nuclear war. People built fall out shelters and even my folks stored food and water under a heavy table in the basement. I remember practicing "duck and cover" in school. We didn't hoard, but we did prepare. Know what happened? Nothing. The Russias weren't as suicidal as we thought. The same for Y2K. Nothing. We saw Y2K coming years ahead of time. Our programers got to work and fixed the problem.

 

Fear can also result from something totally unreal. That is what I think is happening here. We are getting older and the world is changing so we are just talking ourselves into being afraid. I have seen nothing in the current world that is remotely as scary as nuclear war with Russia or as well documented as Y2K. Probably something will happen in the future. The earth might have an unfortunately close encounter with a metor or there might be an earthquake in New Madrid, but I see no reason to live my life in fear. I wish others agreed.

 

As to the DHS acquiring 2700 bomb resistant vehicles, I think they were military surplus built for Iraq and Afganistan. Let's see how many are actually deployed. I don't think a lot of people realize just how big the DHS is these days.

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What is the difference?

 

Hoarding is a sign of fear. It might be fear of something tangible. When I was a pup America was threatened with nuclear war. People built fall out shelters and even my folks stored food and water under a heavy table in the basement. I remember practicing "duck and cover" in school. We didn't hoard, but we did prepare. Know what happened? Nothing. The Russias weren't as suicidal as we thought. The same for Y2K. Nothing. We saw Y2K coming years ahead of time. Our programers got to work and fixed the problem.

 

Fear can also result from something totally unreal. That is what I think is happening here. We are getting older and the world is changing so we are just talking ourselves into being afraid. I have seen nothing in the current world that is remotely as scary as nuclear war with Russia or as well documented as Y2K. Probably something will happen in the future. The earth might have an unfortunately close encounter with a metor or there might be an earthquake in New Madrid, but I see no reason to live my life in fear. I wish others agreed.

 

As to the DHS acquiring 2700 bomb resistant vehicles, I think they were military surplus built for Iraq and Afganistan. Let's see how many are actually deployed. I don't think a lot of people realize just how big the DHS is these days.

You asked, "What is the difference"?

Get out your Webster's Dictionary and look it up. That will give you a good start. Then do some research, you'll figure it out!

Research is always fun. Enjoy it.

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