What's the call?

[Blackwater 53393]

Let me start out by saying that this has happened to me on a couple of other occasions, but last weekend at a big match, it happened again and the RO had some question about it. He's a good friend and a great shooter and RO. We discussed the matter in a friendly manner and there was the thought that THIS would be a great item for a Make The Call thread.

 

I was shooting the last stage of the match when my last pistol locked up after the first shot. I pulled out my knife and knocked the wedge out, pulled off the barrel and slid the cylinder forward to clear the jam, reassembled the pistol and finished the stage clean. In all of this I was extremely careful to keep all parts of the gun pointed safely down range.

 

The question here is in removing the cylinder you may have to get the hammer to half cock. Also the cylinder is still capped on four chambers. In effect it could be said that the shooter, (me) might be sweeping himself with a loaded gun, i.e. my hand might cover a one or more capped chambers.

 

The Frontiersman category rules say that the cap and ball shooter is to be given extra latitude in handling the pistols due to their unique problems and characteristics.

 

Some of you rules experts, (PaleWolf) chime in here and give us some insight.

 

Edit: I've only done this when I'm trying to clean a stage or in the other cases trying to shoot a clean match.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I am not sure if there is a rule against it but I think that removing a capped cylinder from the frame creates a safety issue. If it were to be dropped the likely hood of a cap being ignited is just too high in my opinion.

[Blackwater 53393]

I actually never romove the cylinder. I just slide it up the arbor far enough to get the pieces of the cap out of the way, then slide it back and reinstall the barrel. Shoulda' said so in the OP.

[Dubious Don #56333]

When a 'reg'lar' shooter fixes a malfunction say, by physically turning the cylinder do his or her fingers get in the front of the cylinder? Yes. I ain't never seen one yet called on this so you should be ok in this respect.

 

The gun was kept downrange. Good-O. Whilst the gun is apart, it ain't a gun and 'sweeping ones' self, if there even is such a penalty is MOOT.

 

Fiddle with it, stick knives and such in there to clear the caps, fine. Take the barrel wedge out, move the barrel forward but not off...well, I think I could live with that, I could even live with...I think...the barrel coming off, the cylinder stays on the frame and the shooter is carefully clearing the gun while ensiring the LOADED cylinder CANNOT fall....hmmm, That I'd have to see first.

 

Taking a capped cylinder completely off the frame...not on my stage, not while I am the RO. Sorry.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Shooter does not earn a penalty for "sweeping himself." A rules review right here a week ago pointed that out again. Sweeping someone in the rules always calls out that they must have swept someone ELSE.

 

If the C&B pistol was handled in a safe manner, muzzle never broke 170, then there is NO CALL.

 

It really does not matter if "a loaded cylinder COULD have been dropped", if the cylinder was NOT dropped, then it was handled safely. Would you call a "loaded pistol COULD have been dropped" on a cartridge shooter just because a shooter had the pistol in one hand as he drew it? Of course not.

 

Good luck, GJ

[McCandless]

no call... experienced cap n' ball shooter, makes a well rehearsed and safe repair on the line, facing downrange. Safely completes the course of fire, without breaking the 170 or any other rule, and has a clean match.. done and done.

[Curly Red Ryder]

I am not sure if there is a rule against it but I think that removing a capped cylinder from the frame creates a safety issue. If it were to be dropped the likely hood of a cap being ignited is just too high in my opinion.

A capped cylinder falling is considered as a cartridge falling and is declared dead. So it seems the capped cylinder alone (tripped from the revolver) has to be considered as a spare cartridge and if you are sweeping yourself with ths cylinder it should be a no call.

[Noz]

One of the many problems cap and ball shooters have with ROs that do not understand the guns.

Continue to march, Desperado!

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

A capped cylinder falling is considered as a cartridge falling and is declared dead. So it seems the capped cylinder alone (tripped from the revolver) has to be considered as a spare cartridge and if you are sweeping yourself with ths cylinder it should be a no call.

Actually, a capped cylinder is a loaded gun and is called as such.

 

In this case, I'd say "no call".

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Actually, a capped cylinder is a loaded gun and is called as such.

 

In this case, I'd say "no call".

 

If that is so, why is retrieval of a dropped loaded (charged & capped) cylinder only a MSV ... vs a MDQ for a dropped loaded firearm?

 

 

 

Minor Safety Penalties

• ...

• Retrieving a dropped "dead" round, or a dropped loaded cylinder.

RO1 p.24

[Blackwater 53393]

Thanks fellers! I'd hate to think that I'd crossed the line on something like this. I could have declared a malfunction and gained about forty-five seconds, but it was just too much fun to complete the stage and shoot it clean. I was NOT having great match, competitionwise so style points seemed the way to go!!

[Krazy Kajun]

Thanks fellers! I'd hate to think that I'd crossed the line on something like this. I could have declared a malfunction and gained about forty-five seconds, but it was just too much fun to complete the stage and shoot it clean. I was NOT having great match, competitionwise so style points seemed the way to go!!

You got style BD....you definitely got style. It's always fun to shoot with you on a posse....just never know what will happen and when it does it's just another day in the park for you....great attitude and great fun.

[Cowboy Junky]

That's what happens when folks use these OLD outdated firearms.......they need to get the new stuff from the 1870's.......lol

[Dang It Dan 13202]

This, for me, brings up two things that I think SASS has dead wrong.

 

First, sweeping yourself with a firearm, loaded or not, is a MDQ in any other action sport. I don't think anyone would argue that pointing a gun at any part of our body is a good idea. Having to accommodate reholstering the gun is the only difference between us and say IPSC, USPSA, Etc because they are not allowed to reholster until the end of the stage and the gun is cleared. So beyond that one aspect I have always believed that putting our hands, fingers, arms in front of the muzzle of the gun would one day result in a serious accident and perhaps a serious law suit.

 

Second, I agree that a shooter should have the opportunity to fix a jamb or malfunction on the clock, but when someone whips out a screwdriver and starts actually working on the gun, I have to wonder if that should be allowed, no matter what kind of gun they are shooting. I think we have all seen folks use screwdrivers from time to time on a stuck carrier, but I have also seen folks use the butt end of knives as hammers, bang the gun on a prop, and in one event, I saw a guy whip out a squib rod and bang a squib back into the cylinder of a pistol so the cylinder would spin. All this in the name of what? - a piece of wood.

 

If the OP had the cylinder slightly out of place in the frame of this gun, and had hit one of the caps, he would have effectively been holding a grenade in his hand. He is putting himself and the TO and everyone around him in danger. Again for what? - a clean match ribbon.

 

Not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but I think safety should come first and statistics show that one out of every 10,000 unsafe acts results in an injury. So this can go on for a while before someone gets hurt.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Regards,

[Noz]

I know it is an inconvenience for a lot of shooters to have cap and ball pistols on their posse. Loud noises and nasty smells.

For the vast majority of us, we know what we are doing, leave us alone.

We are slow and we stink and we love what we do.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I know it is an inconvenience for a lot of shooters to have cap and ball pistols on their posse. Loud noises and nasty smells.

For the vast majority of us, we know what we are doing, leave us alone.

We are slow and we stink and we love what we do.

Folks that don't think that doing this "Fix" on the stage is a good idea don't think that way because they don't understand C&B.

 

And I hope you are kidding when you say that non-C&B shooters consider them inconceniences.

 

So come on, speed, smell and loving what you do has nothing to do with whether it's an acceptable practice...or safe.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Actually, a capped cylinder is a loaded gun and is called as such.

In this case, I'd say "no call".

+1. On both comments.

[Grizzly Dave]

Never shot Cap and Ball in CAS, but have a bit just plinking years ago.

 

As Pale Wolf pointed out, a loaded cap and ball cylinder is considered the same as a cartridge if dropped according to the rules.

 

My question is this, and for mainly the cap and ball shooters....

Do you consider a capped loaded cylinder to be more of a danger to go off if dropped than a cartridge? In my limited experience I would think yes, but that's why I'm asking the question.

 

FWIW, I enjoy shooting on a posse with C&B shooters, and could not care less if they are slow.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

I've seen folks pull a screwdriver to work on smokeless Marlins when cartridges get hung up in/around/over the carrier. Seems about the same to me

 

cheyenne

[Griff]

Shooter does not earn a penalty for "sweeping himself." A rules review right here a week ago pointed that out again. Sweeping someone in the rules always calls out that they must have swept someone ELSE.

 

If the C&B pistol was handled in a safe manner, muzzle never broke 170, then there is NO CALL.

 

It really does not matter if "a loaded cylinder COULD have been dropped", if the cylinder was NOT dropped, then it was handled safely. Would you call a "loaded pistol COULD have been dropped" on a cartridge shooter just because a shooter had the pistol in one hand as he drew it? Of course not.

 

Good luck, GJ

+1.

I am not sure if there is a rule against it but I think that removing a capped cylinder from the frame creates a safety issue. If it were to be dropped the likely hood of a cap being ignited is just too high in my opinion.

 

"Woulda, coulda, or shoulda," are all shades of "PC". Often misinterpreted as "Politically Correct", but in fact is "Public Cowardice." While actually jacking out a live round and LETTING it hit the ground in whatever fashion it could possibly, conceiveably land in, is just a matter of course, but let a cap n' ball shooter purposefully remove a capped cylinder and set it down on a table or prop safely, somehow becomes an unsafe act, simply because it "could" have been dropped is about as nonsensical bit of logic as I've seen. Doin' the same with a loaded cartridge cylinder is just as unsafe, is it not? We all want to be as safe as possible. But, risks are a daily event... they include the physical loading of ammo, including handling of bullets primers and powder, and after assembly, carrying it from loading area to storage area, carrying it to car, driving car to range, putting ammo in loading blocks, then putting ammo into the actual guns they will be fired from... yet we seem to do all this with a rather cavalier attitude; maybe we give a nod to safety, . But... let a cap n' ball shooter handle a capped cylinder and it all of a sudden becomes an accident looking for a place, as the time has arrived.

One of the many problems cap and ball shooters have with ROs that do not understand the guns.

Continue to march, Desperado!

+1.

 

Actually, a capped cylinder is a loaded gun and is called as such.

 

In this case, I'd say "no call".

 

If that is so, why is retrieval of a dropped loaded (charged & capped) cylinder only a MSV ... vs a MDQ for a dropped loaded firearm?

 

RO1 p.24

 

Folks that don't think that doing this "Fix" on the stage is a good idea don't think that way because they don't understand C&B.

 

And I hope you are kidding when you say that non-C&B shooters consider them inconceniences.

 

So come on, speed, smell and loving what you do has nothing to do with whether it's an acceptable practice...or safe.

Unfortunately, that sometimes is the case. Certainly not all, but it's far more prevalent that most non- C&B'rs might imagine.

[Fingers McGee]

Thanks fellers! I'd hate to think that I'd crossed the line on something like this. I could have declared a malfunction and gained about forty-five seconds, but it was just too much fun to complete the stage and shoot it clean. I was NOT having great match, competitionwise so style points seemed the way to go!!

You've always got style BW, clearing the jam & continuing the stage just proved it. Nothing wrong with the way you handled it.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

 

and, a capped cylinder isn't a hand grenade any more than a cylinder full of cartridges is.

[T-Bone SASS #36388]

well now, lets change things up a bit. The shooter after removing the barrel and cylinder in hand was told to STOP. Shooter says NO "I can do this, done it at other match's''. Again shooter was told to stop. Shooter continues to rotate cylinder in hand/capped and while cocking the hammer to get things back in time,,,,, then replaces the barrel and continues to shoot.....It all happened in 100 seconds or so. My problem was as RO the shooter did not follow RO instructions at any time during the problem. If RO would of been wrong in this call a re shoot would be in order. I was not driving this car just seating in the back seat....BUT.... I could of been the first person to the scene of the accident.... I still stand with my first call after the words "STOP". SDQ or Match....

[Kid Drover]

Hey Blackwater,

 

Just don't get your fingers in front of that 10 Gauge you shoot! It make my favorite hat maker (oh yea, and the Best Around)......fingerless! Here is to safe shooting! YEE-HAW!

 

KCD

[Captain Bill Burt]

well now, lets change things up a bit. The shooter after removing the barrel and cylinder in hand was told to STOP. Shooter says NO "I can do this, done it at other match's''. Again shooter was told to stop. Shooter continues to rotate cylinder in hand/capped and while cocking the hammer to get things back in time,,,,, then replaces the barrel and continues to shoot.....It all happened in 100 seconds or so. My problem was as RO the shooter did not follow RO instructions at any time during the problem. If RO would of been wrong in this call a re shoot would be in order. I was not driving this car just seating in the back seat....BUT.... I could of been the first person to the scene of the accident.... I still stand with my first call after the words "STOP". SDQ or Match....

ROI page 13 #3

 

Cease Fire!" or "Stop!" If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator will immediately shout "Cease Fire!" or "Stop!" The shooter is to stop firing or moving immediately. Failure to heed this command is serious and may result in a Match Disqualification.

 

If I called stop in error obviously I owe the shooter a reshoot. If I call stop and the shooter tells me no (whether I was correct in making the call or not) I'm going to call a MDQ and let the shooter appeal or not as he sees fit.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Ruhhh roooooh.... whole different story now. You know I love ya big man, but STOP is STOP and the RO is the boss. You gotta STOP and let the rule fall where it may.

 

Procedurally speaking it seemed fine as I read the whole thread just looking for when we were gonna hear the rest of the story as seems to always happen of these WTC topics.

 

Otherwise, I've held the clock before and watched someone doing exactly what the shooter did in this example while being vigilant for the rule that any part that hits the ground is the same as the gun hitting the ground in my book. MDQ would be my call in that instance because the 'gun' is loaded and you're tinkering with a loaded gun. If a part hits the ground then you take your $50 and go protest my call.

 

If I'm RO and call STOP same deal....I'd rather LIVE with being wrong.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

For the T-Bone variation, although it is the shooter's stage, it is the responsibility of the RO to get the shooter safely through the stage. If the RO believes something, anything, the shooter is doing is UNSAFE, he is REQUIRED to stop the shooter. And the shooter is REQUIRED to obey the call "CEASE FIRE" or "STOP" or something else similar but understandable.

 

Then you can sort out whether the RO understood the safety of the situation or whether the shooter was doing just fine and should be given a reshoot. That is where a Range Safety Officer or a Match Director would probably be consulted.

 

If the shooter disregards a Cease Fire or Stop command from the RO:

 

From the RO I handbook:

“Cease Fire!” or “Stop!” If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator

will immediately shout “Cease Fire!” or “Stop!” The shooter is to stop firing or moving

immediately.Failure to heed this command is serious and may result in a Match

Disqualification.

Good luck, GJ

[Griff]

Gotta vote with "STOP", means for the shooter to stop, immediately desist with whatever activity is going on... otherwise a MDQ is in order. Shooter and RO can discuss what was happening off the clock, and a decision reached for a reshoot or let score stand... However, it is often a judgement call as to whether a shooter can make a repair on the line, safely... and mostly, it's ONLY the shooter than can really judge whether he's (she's) capable. Which would be the determining factor whether a reshoot is in order.

[Blackwater 53393]

Okay, I will concede that the RO made a comment, The comment was something to the effect that I couldn't tear down the pistol on the line, to which I replied that I had done it before at other matches, and of course I could. There was never an actual comand to "Stop" or "Cease Fire". Had there been one I would have stopped. The Ro and I discussed it afterwards, cordially, and no call was made. I hope there are no hard feelings between the RO and myself, certainly there are none on my part. Had I been told to stop or to cease fire, I would have done so, and likely wouldn't have questioned it further. This was done only to preserve a clean stage, of which I'd had very few for this match. As to the hammer being cocked repeatedly, that was done while the cylinder was out of battery, (slid up the arbor) the pistol was firmly locked up until the cylinder was slid forward.

 

The discussion that followed and my question here are all a part of the learning process that I feel we need to continue for the good of the sport and to keep us all informed and working together.

 

There was, and is no intention on my part to "set out" or offend or belittle or mislead anyone. If I did, I respectfully and publicly apologize here.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...

 

There was, and is no intention on my part to "set out" or offend or belittle or mislead anyone. If I did, I respectfully and publicly apologize here.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Shooter does not earn a penalty for "sweeping himself." A rules review right here a week ago pointed that out again. Sweeping someone in the rules always calls out that they must have swept someone ELSE.

 

If the C&B pistol was handled in a safe manner, muzzle never broke 170, then there is NO CALL.

 

It really does not matter if "a loaded cylinder COULD have been dropped", if the cylinder was NOT dropped, then it was handled safely. Would you call a "loaded pistol COULD have been dropped" on a cartridge shooter just because a shooter had the pistol in one hand as he drew it? Of course not.

 

Good luck, GJ

I never stated that a call should have been made just my opinion of how safe the act was. Care to explain why there is a penalty for coming to the line with a cartridge revolver with a live round under the hammer, I mean if it does not get dropped then it was handled safely right.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

+1.

 

"Woulda, coulda, or shoulda," are all shades of "PC". Often misinterpreted as "Politically Correct", but in fact is "Public Cowardice." While actually jacking out a live round and LETTING it hit the ground in whatever fashion it could possibly, conceiveably land in, is just a matter of course, but let a cap n' ball shooter purposefully remove a capped cylinder and set it down on a table or prop safely, somehow becomes an unsafe act, simply because it "could" have been dropped is about as nonsensical bit of logic as I've seen. Doin' the same with a loaded cartridge cylinder is just as unsafe, is it not? We all want to be as safe as possible. But, risks are a daily event... they include the physical loading of ammo, including handling of bullets primers and powder, and after assembly, carrying it from loading area to storage area, carrying it to car, driving car to range, putting ammo in loading blocks, then putting ammo into the actual guns they will be fired from... yet we seem to do all this with a rather cavalier attitude; maybe we give a nod to safety, . But... let a cap n' ball shooter handle a capped cylinder and it all of a sudden becomes an accident looking for a place, as the time has arrived.

+1.

 

 

RO1 p.24

 

Unfortunately, that sometimes is the case. Certainly not all, but it's far more prevalent that most non- C&B'rs might imagine.

There is a difference between cautious and cowardice. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS A CARTRIDGE.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

I guess the lesson here for me anyway. Make sure TO understands C&B operations.

I guess pulling out a Redwing screwdriver, to work on cartridge guns, on the firing line is still fine.

I believe it was Rowdy Yates did some research on C&B. Research included chain firing and such, very informative.

 

Just the take from my saddle.

 

 

Smokestack,

 

What is the difference between a cartridge and a loaded and capped cylinder?

 

 

edited for question.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I guess the lesson here for me anyway. Make sure TO understands C&B operations.

 

I guess pulling out a Redwing screwdriver, to work on cartridge guns, on the firing line is still fine.

 

I believe it was Rowdy Yates did some research on C&B. Research included chain firing and such, very informative.

 

Just the take from my saddle.

 

 

Smokestack,

 

What is the difference between a cartridge and a loaded and capped cylinder?

 

 

edited for question.

I guess weight would be the most obvious difference.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I guess the lesson here for me anyway. Make sure TO understands C&B operations.

 

I guess pulling out a Redwing screwdriver, to work on cartridge guns, on the firing line is still fine.

 

I believe it was Rowdy Yates did some research on C&B. Research included chain firing and such, very informative.

 

Just the take from my saddle.

 

 

Smokestack,

 

What is the difference between a cartridge and a loaded and capped cylinder?

 

 

edited for question.

Wouldn't the cylinders act as little barrels...where as a cartridge basically goes Pop!

 

Hmmmm...

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Wouldn't the cylinders act as little barrels...where as a cartridge basically goes Pop!

 

Hmmmm...

bingo!

You could not pay me enough to throw a loaded and capped cylinder up over my head and let it hit the ground but I would do this all day long with cartridges. I guess that makes me a coward.