You make the call?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Probably not with the crossdraw, but he surely did with his shotgun at about 22 seconds! Exuberance sometimes gets the best of even good shooters.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Posted later: Gotta remember, the shooter is "on the firing line" from leaving the loading table to arriving at the unloading table. The 170 rule applies during ALL that time.

[Huntingtoys]

What about the fact that he turns and is almost at 90 before holstering the right pistol

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

What about the fact that he turns and is almost at 90 before holstering the right pistol

That's not an issue at all.

 

Fillmore

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Probably not with the crossdraw, but he surely did with his shotgun at about 22 seconds! Exuberance sometimes gets the best of even good shooters.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

To me it looks like he finished shooting, held it muzzle up and turned to walk down the line to retrieve his rifle. No way would I call that.

[Two Spurs]

based upon this video only,,,,,,, they can be decieving at times

I say, yes, the 170 rule was broken, as the barrel :: while still amost level :: was swung around to far,

before going into a pointed down fashon

Interesting. I also looked at it and the first thing I noticed is that the pistol was pointed at the camera/everyone at the loading table. Seems all the discussion is going beyond the first breakdown and focusing on the second- which I find is interesting.

 

As pointed out, the TO probably won't see THAT part of it because of where he's standing. He certainly WOULD NOT see the secondary angle of it pointing at his foot/leg/whatever per the freeze-frame. Seems the only thing that could realistically be called would be breaking the 170 toward the loading table.

 

....More coffee.......

[riverview rattler]

To me it looks like he finished shooting, held it muzzle up and turned to walk down the line to retrieve his rifle. No way would I call that.

 

 

 

 

He does a spin move, turning the wrong way with shotgun...when he is between the shotgun and the targets down range...well he has certainly broken the 170.

 

I've seen it called before, at major matches...a tough pill to swallow, but you have to remember that the rules are different on the firing line because we’re dealing with loaded guns.

 

 

 

 

[John E. Law]

 

 

 

He does a spin move, turning the wrong way with shotgun...when he is between the shotgun and the targets down range...well he has certainly broken the 170.

 

I've seen it called before, at major matches...a tough pill to swallow, but you have to remember that the rules are different on the firing line because we’re dealing with loaded guns.

 

 

 

 

If that shotgun call were made on me I would certainly be putting up my money to challenge it. I, in no way, am seeing him break the 170 with the shotgun,

 

JEL

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

If that shotgun call were made on me I would certainly be putting up my money to challenge it. I, in no way, am seeing him break the 170 with the shotgun,

 

JEL

If the shotgun is pointing straight up, the 170 has been broken. In the video, it looks like the barrels are pointing straight up and looks like he breaks the 180 at the end of the string.

 

Fillmore

[John E. Law]

It's a tough angle to see but it looks to me that he opens the shotgun before picking the barrel up. He shoots his last two, opens and shucks them as he lifts it straight up and strarts towards the rifle. Yes the barrels are straight up and the action is open.

 

the rules say:

 

RO1 Appendex A, Range Safety Rules Pg15 Sec 2

Long guns will have their actions open with their chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage. Chambers and magazines must be empty and actions open for all firearms transported at a match. Muzzle direction is important between, before, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to "sweep" the other participants between stages, or when moving the firearms from the gun cart to the loading tables. The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally "up" and slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification.

 

 

 

 

Up, open, and empty is as safe as it gets. The rules say "generally" not "must be".

 

JEL

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

yes, he broke the 170 with pistol, NO he din't with shotgun!

 

If a club was that contentious about the sg I wouldn't shoot there!

 

still say a cross draw shouldn't be called a straight hang! I bet it wasn't intended that way!

 

I'll go back in my hole.....for now.....

 

cpbc

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

All this hoorah is why we should have adopted my Natural Draw concept years ago when I first proposed it and still should do so immediately post haste if not sooner.

 

Hoss I hope you got it that a shooter can not receive a penalty when sweeping his/herowndangself at any time. The penalty is only invoked for sweeping other folks.

 

Zach, there is nowhere near 60000 active SASS shooters. Maybe half that. No more than 50000 world wide if you include all CASers even those who are not in SASS.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Geeze guys,

 

I dunno. If we are going to get this picky about things we are going to have a lot of very long days on the range and we most likely will not be popular at the end of it either.

 

The gun is in control. I never see the muzzle at any point. And, if he doesn't do what he does, he can't reholster - ever. Would I make a Federal case out of this, no. Would we have a discussion after the match, yes. I would bet that 99.9% of the folks on the range would never look twice at this.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Geeze guys,

 

I dunno. If we are going to get this picky about things we are going to have a lot of very long days on the range and we most likely will not be popular at the end of it either.

 

The gun is in control. I never see the muzzle at any point. And, if he doesn't do what he does, he can't reholster - ever. Would I make a Federal case out of this, no. Would we have a discussion after the match, yes. I would bet that 99.9% of the folks on the range would never look twice at this.

 

Hey Dan. I think this forum is a great place for discussion, even if things get ridiculous at times. Duece posted this to cause discussion which it did. No one gets hurt and we can hash out all different scenarios. I think this makes us, who are involved and interested, better tenders of the rules. This helps our clubs, fellow shooters, and the sport.

Your input is important and welcomed and I agree, at the range on shoot day, things are different. Kinda like the traveling rule in the NBA.

 

 

 

Fillmore

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

No Call on the Shotgun, it was officially put out via PWB that the vertical 170 does not apply while proceeding to and from the firing line. Only while actually engaged in the stage. The shooter had fired his last round for the stage. While moving to and from the firing line, MUZZLE UP is considered safe. The post was called COMMON SENSE approach to the 170.

 

[Grizzly Dave]

The NITS sure are gettin' picked.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

The NITS sure are gettin' picked.

On the shotgun. YES

 

Stan

[riverview rattler]

If it’s true that one can break the 170 on the way to the unloading table…then I have seen some bad calls, not saying that I like it, but I all ways understood that the rules were more stringent from LT thru ULT, one can drop a gun a foot before the loading table or a foot from the ULT on the way to his gun cart..and it’s a no call, doing the same on the line is a SDQ. A shooter coming to the line with the hammer up on his rifle…a SDQ even though there is no round chambered or on the carrier…it’s harst but the rules are more stringent on the line.

So…I’m not trying to argue, just want to make the correct call on this.

I’ve seen shooters end with their long gun and turn back to the line, and get called for a SDQ because they turned the wrong way (meaning if they were moving to right….shot… and turned again to the right putting the gun between himself and the posse instead of keeping the gun between himself and the stage.

So is the stage complete when the last firearm is empty? And one is free to proceed to the ULT in a safe manner…muzzle up but not down range?

Just would like it clarified…want to make the correct call, that’s all.

[Blastmaster]

IMNSHO!!! The shooter in question performed good gun ( as it goes)) handling as far as SASS rules apply!!

 

The TO should be replace immediately!! But that is for another post.

 

Blastmaster

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

 

 

 

If it’s true that one can break the 170 on the way to the unloading table…then I have seen some bad calls, not saying that I like it, but I all ways understood that the rules were more stringent from LT thru ULT, one can drop a gun a foot before the loading table or a foot from the ULT on the way to his gun cart..and it’s a no call, doing the same on the line is a SDQ. A shooter coming to the line with the hammer up on his rifle…a SDQ even though there is no round chambered or on the carrier…it’s harst but the rules are more stringent on the line.

 

So…I’m not trying to argue, just want to make the correct call on this.

 

I’ve seen shooters end with their long gun and turn back to the line, and get called for a SDQ because they turned the wrong way (meaning if they were moving to right….shot… and turned again to the right putting the gun between himself and the posse instead of keeping the gun between himself and the stage.

 

So is the stage complete when the last firearm is empty? And one is free to proceed to the ULT in a safe manner…muzzle up but not down range?

 

Just would like it clarified…want to make the correct call, that’s all.

 

 

 

Howdy Pard,

 

Here is a link to the original post. Check it out for yourself

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172250&hl=%2Bapplication+%2Bof+%2Bthe+%2B170%BA+%2Brule

[riverview rattler]

Howdy Pard,

 

Here is a link to the original post. Check it out for yourself

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172250&hl=%2Bapplication+%2Bof+%2Bthe+%2B170%BA+%2Brule

 

That is helpfull...Thanks!

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Well... I am the shooter in that video, just to give a little context this video was taken a long time ago when I first started shooting CAS. This was not at a match it was just a couple of guys at the range with a timer. There was no RO. The guy behind the bench was just staying in the shade while he ran the timer. The holster is worn in a way which puts the entire pistol to the left of my belly button and it is a straight hang. I can't argue with the still frames, the gun definitely breaks the 180 in this video. However I can not see where I swept anyone including the camera person. I am not saying that makes a difference but some are saying I pointed the gun at the camera. I don't see that.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Interesting. I also looked at it and the first thing I noticed is that the pistol was pointed at the camera/everyone at the loading table. Seems all the discussion is going beyond the first breakdown and focusing on the second- which I find is interesting.

 

As pointed out, the TO probably won't see THAT part of it because of where he's standing. He certainly WOULD NOT see the secondary angle of it pointing at his foot/leg/whatever per the freeze-frame. Seems the only thing that could realistically be called would be breaking the 170 toward the loading table.

 

....More coffee.......

There was no loading table.