You make the call?

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Does the shooter in this video break the 170 with his cross draw?

[Wyatt]

Close........so No

[Mustang Gregg]

Sorry, Deuce.

 

I can't open it from my laptop.

 

MG

[Captain Bill Burt]

It looks like the muzzle of his gun is pointed back towards himself as he holsters it, so I say yes, he broke it. Without the benefit of 'instant replay' that's a call I don't think I could make during a match.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

uhhh.....yeah.......where is the barrel of the first gun pointing when it's about 8 inches above the holster?.......at the shooter himself. This type of technique is the most common 170 violation I see with crossdraws. Usually the shooter's body obscures it from the view of the TO.......doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Stan

[Wyatt]

The build of the shooters has a bearing on reholster and the angle he creates. A similar reverse angle can be created when holstering some strong side firearms that are more to the side than the front.

 

I remember a topic that covered angles and hovering over the holster several years ago.......but then I'm old

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

uhhh.....yeah.......where is the barrel of the first gun pointing when it's about 8 inches above the holster?.......at the shooter himself. This type of technique is the most common 170 violation I see with crossdraws. Usually the shooter's body obscures it from the view of the TO.......doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Stan

We're you able to asses that watching the video only once?

[John E. Law]

When I first watched it I thought it was tough call based on the camera angle, but after reading Stan's post and re-watching the video a clear yes.

 

JEL

[Bullwhip Karl]

Where is the RO? Is the TO also the RO? Why is he so far away?

[Blastmaster]

RO wasn't within arms length for safety,coaching, and observing the shooter and so forth. Seemed to be a shooting bench between the two.

 

Oh, that wasn't the question.

 

Close call about the sweeping question.

[travelin kid #51083]

Where is the RO? Is the TO also the RO? Why is he so far away?

Because he fears the shooter? (tongue in cheek)

 

I stopped and paused it many times between 2 and 3 seconds, also between 5 and 6 seconds, judgement call says yes, but camera angle makes it hard to tell for sure...

there is on way tthe RO would have been able to make the call from his safe vantage point.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

We're you able to asses that watching the video only once?

Yes sir...... While you can sweep yourself.....you can't break the 170 while doing it.

 

Stan

[Seldom Seen #16162]

My call is we should not use a camera shot from one angle to make a decision.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Even if the 170 is broken, it's not a penalty if it's a straight hang holster worn as a crossdraw.

 

Fillmore

[Oklahoma Dee]

Very interesting.

 

That cross draw holster is really hanging straight down, by appearances. The shooter should have the ability to pull and holster the revolver into it with no penalty.

 

Tough call.

 

OkD

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Even if the 170 is broken, it's not a penalty if it's a straight hang holster worn as a crossdraw.

 

Fillmore

Thank you , was waiting for someone to reference that. Also this is meant to be an educational thread. We can't use video evidence and this is not meant to incriminate a shooter. It's a unique video in the fact that we get to watch it at a angle not often seen.

[John E. Law]

These last few 170 threads are why I prefer IPSCs 180 rule. Much easier to call.

 

JEL

[Dubious Don #56333]

Nope shooter does a border shift, barrel goes from down range to holster smoothly. Stop action, it's pointing THROUGH the holster, not at the shooter. No call.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Very nice Deuce, I see your earning your keep on the RO Committee.

 

KK

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Even if the 170 is broken, it's not a penalty if it's a straight hang holster worn as a crossdraw.

 

Fillmore

Yes it looks to be a straight hang holster.......I'm pretty sure that PWB has stated that even straight hangs can't go past the 180.....which the fellow in the video did do.....

 

Stan

[Griff]

NO. It's a straight-hang holster, ergo the gun HAS to break the 170º plane in order to enter the holster. However, if viewed from the front, is the holster to the right of the shooter's belly button? Might not be legal from that standpoint. IMHO, it's a poor choice of holster as worn. If it was worn around to the left more... or nearer the left hip, what would be your call... using the same holstering technique.

 

It is also necessary to note that during the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from "straight hang" holsters and the ability to retrieve and return vertically staged double-barreled shotguns without penalty.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, Deuce.

I can't open it from my laptop.

MG

 

Click on the "desktop" version, it's set on "mobile".

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Well, looks like a newly discovered legal outfit for B Western and Gunfighter. "...two standard holsters, one on each side of the body."

 

This begs wording to be added similar to Classic Cowboy "worn appropriately."

 

I agree with Stan, the 170 is broken when the barrel pointed behind the firing line during holstering. I suppose a super skinny feller might could do it staying technically correct. Those of use with overhang would have to use our off hand to pull it out of the way.

[Montana Longhair 27261]

Duece

 

No call, angle of holster is straight and positioned vertical with the front his left leg. Pistol is pulled and replaced with no breakage of rule. No different than pulli'n from the straight strong side.

When I ran a cross draw, this was the way I pulled.

Furball

[Anvil Al #59168]

Ya. My body type (fat) keeps me from useing one.

 

Good post Duece.

 

We all learn things from this type post.

[Hoss]

I think he broke the 170 when re-holstering. Doubt it would/could/ be called without the benefit of replay. This is a teaching/learning opportunity. Maybe all of us should have a stage or 2 filmed peridically to see if what we think we are doing is actually what we are doing.

 

As far as straight hang vs crossdraw holster, the way I read the rule (and I could be wrong) I think the wording drawing/reholstering in a strong side holster instead of straight hang holster better describes the intent. I think a straight hang, used as a butt forward holster on the oposite side of the shooters body is a cross draw, regardless of the degree or lack of holster cant. I will be interested in PWB's ruling on that. And I think you can sweep yourself, that would result in the same penalty as sweeping any shooter. But again, I'm a relative newbie, so not making rules proclamations. Just sharing my understanding. rather err on the side of safety!

 

I read these and comment on "you make the call" threads to further my understanding of the rules and the what ifs that can/will come up, not to show that I am smarter or know more than anybody else.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I've watched it and re-watched it. The gun goes straight into the holster. No different from a straight hang strong-side, the shooter MUST BE ALLOWED to reholster.

 

He doesn't twist the gun, himself or "do any Michael Jackson moon- walk moves" .

 

Honestly I can't believe there is even a question about it.

 

NO CALL... next shooter

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

I think he broke the 170 when re-holstering. Doubt it would/could/ be called without the benefit of replay. This is a teaching/learning opportunity. Maybe all of us should have a stage or 2 filmed peridically to see if what we think we are doing is actually what we are doing.

 

As far as straight hang vs crossdraw holster, the way I read the rule (and I could be wrong) I think the wording drawing/reholstering in a strong side holster instead of straight hang holster better describes the intent. I think a straight hang, used as a butt forward holster on the oposite side of the shooters body is a cross draw, regardless of the degree or lack of holster cant. I will be interested in PWB's ruling on that. And I think you can sweep yourself, that would result in the same penalty as sweeping any shooter. But again, I'm a relative newbie, so not making rules proclamations. Just sharing my understanding. rather err on the side of safety!

 

I read these and comment on "you make the call" threads to further my understanding of the rules and the what ifs that can/will come up, not to show that I am smarter or know more than anybody else.

Moving a straight hang holster to the other side of your belly button DOES make it a crossdraw but it's still a straight hang holster and the rule, as written, applies.

 

Fillmore

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I don't agree with this straight hang worn as a cross -draw business. not at all.

 

I do NOT believe that is what the "allowance" was meant for. but then that's just imho!

 

why not show a video of someone wearing crotch holsters....address that too...dare ya!

 

cpbc

[Madd Mike #8595]

based upon this video only,,,,,,, they can be decieving at times

I say, yes, the 170 rule was broken, as the barrel :: while still amost level :: was swung around to far,

before going into a pointed down fashon

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

And I think you can sweep yourself, that would result in the same penalty as sweeping any shooter.

Well, that would be a bad interpretation of the rules. Anyone with straight-hang holsters who is even slightly duck-toed (splay footed) or shoots from a "classic" pistol marksman stance while drawing from the weak side, will sometimes sweep his own toes coming out of leather and going back in. That NEVER will be called as "sweeping."

 

 

From Shooter's Handbook, page 21, under SAFETY PRACTICES (bolding added for emphasis)

2. Muzzle direction is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle

must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time. Long guns shall have their

actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction

when transported at a match. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully

down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted

as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe

muzzle direction is grounds for disqualification from the stage, and for repeated offenses,

from the match

Although the Shooter's Handbook has two separate statements about sweeping someone with the muzzle, the one that is the rule and has a safety penalty is the one cited above.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Madd Mike #8595]

I've watched it and re-watched it. The gun goes straight into the holster. No different from a straight hang strong-side, the shooter MUST BE ALLOWED to reholster.

 

He doesn't twist the gun, himself or "do any Michael Jackson moon- walk moves" .

 

Honestly I can't believe there is even a question about it.

 

NO CALL... next shooter

you do not see the barrel point at the camera mans knees or ankels, in that clip?

[Madd Mike #8595]

These last few 170 threads are why I prefer IPSCs 180 rule. Much easier to call.

 

JEL

I think the pistol broke the 180 rule

then a barrel point towards the camera man, and a laser light would have hit his legs, I say

yes, 170 rule was broken even the 180

no matter the holster type

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

It is my understanding that the allowance for drawing and holstering is written simply because when a pistol is drawn from a straight hang holster worn as a double strong side, the pistol is initially pointed basically straight down which is outside the 170. Allowance is given to move it toward the firing line to bring it into the 170. The same is allowed during re-holstering. Pointing the gun up range during that process is, again according to my understanding, is not allowed.

 

In this case, the gun was pointed up range for a brief moment. Given if a round were to go off during that brief moment, it would first impact the shooter, but if powerful enough, it could continue downward in an up range direction and put a hurtin' on an TO's foot.

 

I say the emperor is naked regardless of the declaration of new clothes.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

From the video, the shooter maintains control and does not "wave" the muzzle around - he is paying attention. He is perhaps at about 190 degrees during the downward motion from almost shoulder level down to the mouth of the holster, but I would HAVE to consider that as part of "returning the gun to the holster" that is permitted for a vertical holster.

 

If he were cocking a loaded gun with a similar gun path coming OUT of leather, then of course he would be cocking before the muzzle is safely pointed downrange, but his draw is probably with the weak side hand, and he would not be able to cock that piece anyway.

 

It's a NO CALL from me if I'm holding the timer.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

"When no one on the firing line or right behind it sees the big black hole in the end of the barrel, it's hard for anyone to get very motivated to call the 170 rule."

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Since this is coming from an RO Committee member, I'm assuming I'm wrong. I'd say we're further complicating everyday Joe's ability to understand what is considered breaking the 170 and what is not.

 

Sincerely,

Everyday Joe