reloading problem with 44-40

[Gamblin` Gaby]

having problem with some reloaded ammo , I got new dies ,new Winchester brass , checked lenght of cases , per someone suggestion I run all the new cases thru dies installed primers ,powder ,started seating bullets , stopped & checked my work all but 1 round was fine , anyway I loaded about 50 rounds decided Ineeded to fire off 5/10 rounds , 6 of the 10 wouldn`t fit the chamber of my Vaquero , out of 50 rounds I had just loaded had 16rounds that wouldn`t fit (between 1/8 to 1/4 inch ) does anyone have any idea what happened ?

[Dustin Checotah]

I seat the bullet before crimping, that makes an extra step but I had problems until I did.

Winchester brass gives me the most problems. But now that I know I just look out for those that I have. This is what works for me.

Dustin.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, lots of us have seen these kind of problems.

 

First, loading 44-40 is just about the most complicated and problem prone cartridge that we load in SASS. It can be done, but it usually takes a fair amount of fiddling. And, since it sounds like you are kinda new to reloading, there are going to be lots of things you will need to check. All of this fiddling will go faster if you find a local pard who loads 44-40 and have him (or her) sit with you while you figure this out!

 

Let's have you gather a BUNCH more info to help us give you good advice. What you have told us so far just scratches the surface.

 

What guns are you loading for? A 73 rifle and a couple of Ruger Vaqueros (those would be what sometimes are called "Old Models")? Or something else?

 

Do you own a vernier caliper or micrometer? It does not need to be digital, but you do need one for loading 44-40 and you need to be able to use it accurately.

 

What diameter bullets are you loading? And what diameter bullets do your guns need? Those are specifically two different questions. Most recent production 44-40s are made to have a barrel groove diameter of .429 inch. That is really the diameter for a .44 special or .44 mag, but rather than cut two slightly different groove diameters, the factories decided some time ago to quit making .427 groove diameter barrels in .44-40 guns. In theory, you would need .430 diameter bullets for those barrels.

 

Now, I'm puzzled by your statement "checked my work all but 1 round was fine", but then when you chamber checked against your Vaqueros, several would not chamber. What did you check against, the chamber of the rifle, or just that you eyeballed the cartridge?

 

When a 44-40 fails to chamber in a Vaquero cylinder, usually the problem is that the bullet is too fat, and the cylinder has several chambers with necks too tight (small) to allow that loaded round to fully chamber. To check this, run a few new cases through your sizer die only, and see if those cases drop easily into your revolver cylinders. If they do, then the "fat cases" occur AFTER you have sized them, most likely after seating the bullets. Some folks use a smaller bullet, commonly a .428 diameter bullet, and they start finding that their loads will fit! Ruger was known for making many of their 44-40 Vaqueros with tight chamber necks and tight cylinder throats (the last part of the cylinder, that the bullet travels through to get to barrel). If you have tight chambers in those revolver cylinders, there are two solutions. Use smaller diameter slugs (as mentioned above) and live with probably less accuracy, or have the cylinders reamed to proper dimensions and then you can use larger bullets (like the .430 inch slug).

 

You can also have problems crimping the case on a 44-40, since the case wall is very thin. You HAVE to make sure that you don't seat the bullet so as to let the mouth of the case get shoved down by the part of the bullet just ahead of the crimping groove while seating or crimping, which causes a bulge in the case just below the crimp. There should be just a couple of thousandths of clear space between the case mouth and the upper end of the crimp groove. If you don't see that slight gap, you need to seat to a slightly longer length (don't seat the bullet quite so deep).

 

Because 44-40 is a little tricky to seat and crimp, lots of us cowboy shooters use two dies to accomplish this. Seat to the right depth in the seater die, then crimp with a roll crimp die. Two of the favorite "roll-crimp only" dies for the 44-40 are the Lee Factory Crimp Die, and the Redding Profile Crimp die. These will put a tight, well formed crimp onto the cartridge, just what you need. Of these two, I have better luck with the Redding.

 

Sorry if this has been a little long winded, but as I started this reply, you are loading a cartridge that can be a little tricky, for guns that may not have been manufactured exactly correctly.

 

And, I would push again for the idea that you ask around locally for a 44-40 loader who can show you all his tricks!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Gamblin` Gaby]

Thanks , Garrison Joe , Haven`t reloaded in several years , all I`ve ever used is a rcbs rockchucker , am proud owner of a dial caliper , your statement about a roll crimper really got my attention . I have been removing seater & trying to crimp the bullets , so I guess Ijust got lucky (about 65 0/0 ) Midway or Brownell`s should have roll crimper , just checked bullets , 1 batch from Brownell is .428, Midway bullets measure .430 , yeah you guessed it I was using the .430 dia. , they shoot fine in Rossi model 92 & Vaqueros (don`t know their ages ) bought used . Again I appreciate the information , Gamblin Gaby

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Loading bottle neck cartridges info.

 

The article is about 1//2 way down the page.

----------

Ruger 44-40 revolvers.

Check the barrel by slugging it.

Then slug the cylinder.

The Original Model Vaqueros were coming out of the factory with undersized cylinders. Once the cylinders were recut to work with the supplied barrels, they shoot very well with .430" diameter bullets.

 

This under sizes cylinder diameter was a well know issue when they first came out. Gunsmiths were getting cylinder reamers to recut the chambers.

 

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

If you are a single stage reloader, the best dies are RCBS Cowboy dies. The worst dies are LEE.

The best Brass; Starline, worst; Remington, Winchester is what I load for lost brass matches.

 

And Yes, you chose the most difficult cartridge to load for our Sport, 44WCF.

 

I have used the 44WCF as my choice for all of my CAS/SASS shooting experience. And I have most likely experienced many issues with this great cartridge.

 

Find some one with a .430" cylinder throat reamer and "most" of your problems will be resolved with the Vaquaro's. Your other issues will be the loading Dies,crimp and COAL. My 73/44WCF's like the COAL at 1.590" - 1.595".

 

And BTW; Most Revolvers do not like Remington Brass. The rim is thick and binds on the recoil shield as the cylinder turns. Winchester brass has shallow primer pockets, and thus gives me high primers unless I clean the primer pockets before each reload.

Starline is the best Brass for the 44WCF !

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

I've found that just barely belling the rim helps to avoid the dreaded bulge. I don't have problems loading for either of my rifles, but my Uberti SAA must have really tight cylinders. Stuff you couldn't drive into it with a hammer will chamber easily in either rifle. Rossi '92 and '60 Henry.

 

If all else fails, and you absolutely have to have the cartridges that won't fit, and you're not too worried about accuracy, then you can always remove the decapping pin, and resize the entire loaded cartridge.

 

I use Lee dies. The Factory Crimp helped a LOT.

[Gamblin` Gaby]

Thanks Cliff Hanger ; just got thru running another 30 rounds had 9 that had to redo with sizer die 2nd time , at least they all load now , thanks again to all Gamblin Gaby

[Alferd Packer]

Gamblin Gaby____________________________________________________________________________________________________I read your post where you said you checked the length of your cases. If you checked the case length AFTER you ran them thru the sizer, then you are OK. But as I read this, it looks as though you said you checked case length first. The separate crimping step is loused up if any cases grew longer after sizing them. The ones being shot in a generous chamber as in a rifle, swell larger and iron out stretching further than cases shot in a smaller pistol chamber. You say you have NEW unfired brass. Some of those will surprise you as they can come to uneven lengths after being sized too. If you set your crimping die to crimp the shorter case, then the longer case will bulge out on you when it is crimped. So you have to size all first and then check lengths of all and trim any longer cases to the length of the shorter ones. Only then will you get good results. And remember to ream very lightly inside and out if you have to trim any cases. Only putting this in because no one said anything about trimming cases. The mouths are so thin that any trimming and then reaming can wreck the thin case mouths if not very careful so its worth saying twice-ream very lightly if you have to ream any.Otherwise, you have all you need to know here from these good men.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You do want to be careful about "resizing" a loaded round. This SMASHES the lead bullet down to about .421" when you run the bullet up into the neck area of the sizing die! This is even worse for accuracy than loading a smaller diameter bullet (427/428).

 

The loading die manufacturers and loading manual technicians DO NOT recommend this "field expedient" by the way.

 

A good point was made about using a small expander bell setting - bell just enough to seat the bullet. The reason behind that - belling a lot means that you have belled down quite a ways from the mouth. If your roll crimper does not take ALL the bell out as it crimps, because it is just crimping the mouth, you leave a bulge in the neck down about 100 thousandths below the mouth (same as if your cases are over length or you seat too deeply). One thing that the "final crimp" type dies have (either the Lee or the Redding) is a proper "resizing" collet or throat built into the die that does just a very minor resize of ALL of the case neck with the bullet in it, thus achieving what "run it into the resizer" tries to do, but without damaging the accuracy by over-resizing and smashing the bullet.

 

(Told you this is a tricky little cartridge - however, once you learn to load it, you will love it!)

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rio Brazos Kid]

One thing Garrison Joe mentioned, that IMHO cannot be over emphasized. That's the use of a Redding Profile die, for final crimping. No other die does this with the accuracy and precision that the Redding die does.

 

Other dies can be made to work by experienced reloaders, but the Redding die is the best of the best.

 

This is not only true of the slightly tapered 44-40 either. For straight walled Pistol cartridges, the Redding Profile die beats the snot out of the Lee Factory crimp die.

 

Of course for bottle neck cartridges, the LEE Factory Crimp die is the best on the planet.

 

RBK

[Trailboss (Santa) Dave]

As Lefty Dude said the RCBS Cowboy Dies work and I load .430 bullets. I had the samr problems and was ready to dump my 44-40's in the Big Muddy until I got a set of of the RCBS dies.

 

Most loading dies today size for jacketed bullets, the RCBS dies work better with cast bullets.

[Carlos El Hombre]

I have had to ream cylinders in pistol chambered for 44-40 a few times. I carefully ream them to .001" larger than the grove diameter of the barrel, mostly this means .431". Works well for every gun so far.

Carlos

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

I had a problem loading 44 40 for my Uberti revolvers. I was using .429 diameter bullets and when they were loaded they would not chamber in my revolvers. Seating the bullet would expand the neck of the loaded round just enough for them not to seat in the chamber all the way.

 

I solved this problem by resizing the bullets by forcing them through a chamber of the cylinder from one of my revolvers. This reduced the size two or three thousandths and when they were then loaded they would then fit in the chambers.

 

Both my original Colt Burgess and reproduction Burgess would accept the the larger necked loads but not the revolvers.

 

I have now made a die for my reloading press that I use to resize the bullets down a couple of thousands so I don't have to do it with my revolver cylinder.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Sage Creek Gus

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

If you are a single stage reloader, the best dies are RCBS Cowboy dies. The worst dies are LEE.

The best Brass; Starline, worst; Remington, Winchester is what I load for lost brass matches.

 

And Yes, you chose the most difficult cartridge to load for our Sport, 44WCF.

 

I have used the 44WCF as my choice for all of my CAS/SASS shooting experience. And I have most likely experienced many issues with this great cartridge.

 

Find some one with a .430" cylinder throat reamer and "most" of your problems will be resolved with the Vaquaro's. Your other issues will be the loading Dies,crimp and COAL. My 73/44WCF's like the COAL at 1.590" - 1.595".

 

And BTW; Most Revolvers do not like Remington Brass. The rim is thick and binds on the recoil shield as the cylinder turns. Winchester brass has shallow primer pockets, and thus gives me high primers unless I clean the primer pockets before each reload.

Starline is the best Brass for the 44WCF !

I like and use the Lee Dies. Worst cases are Magtech. They are not USA spec and you pull the top half off the case, even on brand new cases if you run the completed round through the sizer as the article suggested. I have to run the completed rounds through to get 100% fit on my guns. 2 Vaqueros, a uberti 66 and a winchester 92. Its the handguns that have the problem getting the round to completely chamber, the 66 is sensitive to length and the 92 generally works fine. 44-40 is fun to shoot but not fun to load!

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

Well boys I can tell you I have this 44 WCF ammo loading figured out. I have been loading and shooting this cartridge in my revolvers and rifle for the last 6+ years.

 

I am using standard RCBS dies, I spray the cases with Hornady One Shot case lube after they come from the tumbler. I am loading .427 or.428, 180 grain bullets with Clays as the propellant. I size the cases in the sizing die as normal, create a slight bell with the powder die on the Dillon 550 (actually using the powder die from .44 mag.) then seat the bullet to the correct length. The trick here is the last die. I am using the Redding profile crimp die. Set that die up so you get a nice tight crimp, but not so low that it bulges the case. I probably have lost a total of 10-15 cases over the years from operator error, mostly from not having them all the way into the shell plate on the first station on the 550. It really is not a difficult cartridge to load.

 

TB

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

If you are a single stage reloader, the best dies are RCBS Cowboy dies. The worst dies are LEE.

The best Brass; Starline, worst; Remington, Winchester is what I load for lost brass matches.

 

And Yes, you chose the most difficult cartridge to load for our Sport, 44WCF.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with those statements.

 

With the first one, I will disagree most adamantly.

 

I reload several calibers, and I have an assortment of RCBS and Lee dies, mounting them on a simple turret press. No matter how I slice it, I prefer the Lee dies to the RCBS. The main thing that makes me prefer them is the powder through the expander die, which makes the process much more streamlined.

 

As far as .44-40 being the "most difficult" I will say that I understand that comment, but once you figure out what you are doing, it's no more complicated than any other cartridge. There are just a few steps that you have to be precise on.

 

1. When you resize/deprime, you've got to make sure your dies are properly aligned. If off just a little, you can crush a case.

 

2. When you switch to the expander die, have it bell the case as little as possible.

 

3. This is probably the most crucial step. After switching to the seater/crimp die, when you place the bullet in the case mouth, be sure you place it straight up and down. If it is off just a little, it can cause problems. Also, and I learned this the hard way, if you are off by just the slightest amount, you can get bulges and dimples in the case if you try to seat and crimp at the same time. To prevent this, I ONLY seat with this die. I got a Lee factory crimp die to crimp as a separate operation. Once I added that extra die/step, I have never lost another case while reloading. Did the same thing with .32-20, which is a little more forgiving, but can have the same problems.

 

YMMV, but that's what I would suggest.

 

For the record, I use .428 bullets in an Uberti Henry, bonafide antiques, (Colt 1878 and S&W New Model 3 DA) and in spare cylinders for for a pair of Colt Sherrif's models that I normally run .44 Specials in.

 

Never had any problems with the smaller bullets grabbing the rifling.

 

[Noz]

If you are a single stage reloader, the best dies are RCBS Cowboy dies. The worst dies are LEE.

The best Brass; Starline, worst; Remington, Winchester is what I load for lost brass matches.

 

And Yes, you chose the most difficult cartridge to load for our Sport, 44WCF.

 

I have used the 44WCF as my choice for all of my CAS/SASS shooting experience. And I have most likely experienced many issues with this great cartridge.

 

Find some one with a .430" cylinder throat reamer and "most" of your problems will be resolved with the Vaquaro's. Your other issues will be the loading Dies,crimp and COAL. My 73/44WCF's like the COAL at 1.590" - 1.595".

 

And BTW; Most Revolvers do not like Remington Brass. The rim is thick and binds on the recoil shield as the cylinder turns. Winchester brass has shallow primer pockets, and thus gives me high primers unless I clean the primer pockets before each reload.

Starline is the best Brass for the 44WCF !

As in most things on the Wire, this is your opinion. I disagree with almost everything in this post.

[German Jim]

I had a similar problem with .38-40s. Many would not completely chamber in my Colts. After many frustrating hours, I figured out that it was the bullet ogive created in the casting mold. The best way that I can explain it is that the curve of the ogive did not start soon enough and the bullet was bumping up against the shoulder part inside the cylinder when I inserted the cartridge. Don't know if that's your problem, but maybe you could try a different bullet.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

This topic has been discussed on the Wire for the past 10 years of my Forum attendance. All of which I posted, was and has been affirmed by many CAS/SASS 44WCF shooters who frequent this Forum.

 

Experience is the best Teacher. I have 100 of Hours behind the reloading press with the 44WCF issues & problems.

Some reload for the Rifle only, not many issues here. It is when the shooter uses the same loaded 44WCF's for both Revolver & Rifle, then the occured issues appear.

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

Here are my "learnings" that I posted on the Rugerforum...

 

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21534

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

Oh, the key issue is shoulder setback...

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Oh, the key issue is shoulder setback...

That may be one problem, but there are a few that can contribute to loading challenges with bottleneck pistol cartridges.

 

It's hard to tell a novice loader which one, or perhaps which several, of the common problems he is running into simply from a paragraph of his description of the problem, even when it is well written.

 

Of course, a chamber cast of a couple of the cylinders, measurements off of some fired cases and some loaded rounds, and off a slug from the barrel, and we could all probably agree on exactly what this OP's solution should be. Until then, we just kinda muddle through with "check this" and "if it does this, you probably have this...."

 

Good luck, GJ

[Trailrider #896]

So far as your Ruger in .44-40 is concerned, if you don't mind, what are the first digits in the serial number? If 55-XXXXX and 56-XXXXX it may explain the reason for chambering problems. Early 55- series had both tight chambers and tight throats (.425" dia. throats, with .429" barrels!!). Later, Ruger later (somewhere in the mid 55-XXXXX series, opened the chambers but NOT the throats! Last .44-40 production (57-XXXXX) series opened the throats to .429+". I originally had a low-numbered Old Model Vaquero in .44-40 that had both tight chambers and throats. Cartridges, even loaded with .427" bullets would only chamber in four or five of the six chambers! The problem was the use of six different chambering reamers in a gang reamer milling machine at the factory. After much complaining and adverse publicity by several gun writers, Ruger changed out my cylinder and possibly their manufacturing process, but left the throats at .425" I found that hard (BHN 17-22) cast bullets would swage down going through the throats, but the dwell time was insufficient to allow the internal stresses to disappate from the bullet metal. As a result, the bullets re-expand, and I get 1-5/8" groups at 25 yds (when my old eyeballs cooperate).

I use standard RCBS dies, but substitute an expander plug from a .44 Magnum die set for .430" bullets. This leaves a slight "wasp waist" behind the bullet base, preventing the bullet from being shoved into the case. I seat and roll crimp with the RCBS seater die. I use nothing but Winchester brass. The wasp waist expands out on firing, but I have gotten at least 20 reloads from them using this technique. Is the .44-40 difficult to load? Not IMHO, although it can take a bit of fiddling to get a .44-40 round that fits a number of differrent guns. The big problem with the cartridge is the lack of uniformity of specifications used by various manufacturers from Winchester to Colt's to Ruger to Uberti, et al. I've seen original Winchester '73's with barrel groove diameters as large as .434"! But you couldn't chamber a round with a .430" bullet, so you had to use BP and soft lead bullets to get the slug to expand into the rifling. So much for the "nominal" .427" normally thought of as the right diameter for a .44-40 bullet. OTOH, a Colt's Frontier Six Shooter I once measured had a .427" barrel, but the throat diameters were .4245"! (A 2nd Gen .44 Special Colt's Single Action had a .427" barrel, with .429" throats!)

 

Frankly, I'll stick with my .44-40 Rugers and Rossi M92 in .44-40.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I shoot 44-40 with BP, and if I had to name the #1 problem with reloading the 44-40 it would have to be, don't overcrimp. The brass is too thin to take much abuse and will distort easily. If some of your cartridges work and some don't is is probably the crimp. Back off just a bit and see what happens. It isn't a 45 Colt where the brass will just keep rolling into the lead bullet.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

If you know the cylinder throats and bullets are compatible the next place to look is shoulder set-back. Some Die and shell holder combinations don't allow the shoulder to be set back enough.

But, it's an easy fix. Just remove some metal from the bottom of your size die until the should is back enough to fully chamber.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If you need to know where a loaded round is tight, you can smoke the case surface with a sooty flame (candle, acetylene torch), then chamber and eject and look for the shiny spots. A bulged neck or a tight shoulder will usually show up.

 

Of course, a shell that is not primed and not filled with powder might be best for this!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Gamblin` Gaby]

Trailrider ; s/n are 55-52xxx &55-89xxx ; will get them checked out , I really appreciate all the information & help , as for type of dies think you usually like what you have , don`t know many that would keep something they didn`t like around for very long

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Your dial caliper can tell you lots of things. Are the loaded rounds to spec or is there a buldge or are the neck diameters pretty much all over spec indicating possibly to large diameter bullet. A bullet that works with thin brass may not work with thick.

 

A cerro safe cast can tell you volumes about your chamber. Google Cerro Safe there is a metal company out in SF Bay area 1/2 price of brownells.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

I have to disagree with those statements.

 

With the first one, I will disagree most adamantly.

 

I reload several calibers, and I have an assortment of RCBS and Lee dies, mounting them on a simple turret press. No matter how I slice it, I prefer the Lee dies to the RCBS. The main thing that makes me prefer them is the powder through the expander die, which makes the process much more streamlined.

 

As far as .44-40 being the "most difficult" I will say that I understand that comment, but once you figure out what you are doing, it's no more complicated than any other cartridge. There are just a few steps that you have to be precise on.

 

1. When you resize/deprime, you've got to make sure your dies are properly aligned. If off just a little, you can crush a case.

 

2. When you switch to the expander die, have it bell the case as little as possible.

 

3. This is probably the most crucial step. After switching to the seater/crimp die, when you place the bullet in the case mouth, be sure you place it straight up and down. If it is off just a little, it can cause problems. Also, and I learned this the hard way, if you are off by just the slightest amount, you can get bulges and dimples in the case if you try to seat and crimp at the same time. To prevent this, I ONLY seat with this die. I got a Lee factory crimp die to crimp as a separate operation. Once I added that extra die/step, I have never lost another case while reloading. Did the same thing with .32-20, which is a little more forgiving, but can have the same problems.

 

YMMV, but that's what I would suggest.

 

For the record, I use .428 bullets in an Uberti Henry, bonafide antiques, (Colt 1878 and S&W New Model 3 DA) and in spare cylinders for for a pair of Colt Sherrif's models that I normally run .44 Specials in.

 

Never had any problems with the smaller bullets grabbing the rifling.

+1

[Trailrider #896]

Trailrider ; s/n are 55-52xxx &55-89xxx ; will get them checked out , I really appreciate all the information & help , as for type of dies think you usually like what you have , don`t know many that would keep something they didn`t like around for very long

 

GG-

Those are probably both tight chambered and tight throated. But even Ruger isn't sure where they started opening the chambers. Smoking cases or using a magic marker on the brass and trying to seat them should tell you where the interference is. You might try contacting Ruger customer service and ask for the service manager. They might have some originals laying around, or be willing to open up the chambers and the throats. Of course, you'd have to send the guns back... The serial numbers probably indicate they are both tight-chambered, although even Ruger doesn't know exactly where they started opening the chambers.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I run all my LOADED cases through a sizing die when completed. I know, I know......

 

I don't experience any loss of accuracy especially at CAS targets and that's all I use .44-40's for anyway. I've shot on paper with these same loads and I can keep a nice tight group at 7 yds to 20 yds. I've tried everything and this is the only thing that works for me. I use a Dillon 550 with RCBS dies and a Lee factory crimp die at the end. It gives a really nice roll crimp. Some loads drop in the pistol and some don't so I just run everything through a sizer.

 

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

 

Rye