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Knarley Bob

Universal back ground checks

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Contacted my State Rep. here in MN about these goofy "Universal" Background checks they are talking about. Including private sales, no FFL involved.

He tried to compare them with ......................get this

Transfering the title to one's car :blink:

 

I informed this rocket scientist that.......... #1 cars have titles, firearms don't.

Cars are registered with the state, fire arms aren't.(In Minnesota)

Registering firearms is the step before confiscation.

I asked who would know about the sale? Who would get arrested, the buyer or seller? Who is going to enforce this? Are the police going to enforce a law that is illegal, in violation of the 2nd amendment? Didn't you folks take an oath to PROTECT the constitution of the United States? Who is going to obey a law that is illegal?

 

I'm waiting for an answer <_<

Knarley

 

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Good luck getting an answer. Great letter though. We gotta keep up the good work on these no nothing about firearms politicians!

 

:angry: Rye

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The NICS database traces a firearm by serial number from seller to buyer except for gun show purchases. But Congress never appropriated sufficient funding to maintain the FBI database. And now they come up with the new buzz word- Universal

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The NICS database traces a firearm by serial number from seller to buyer except for gun show purchases. But Congress never appropriated sufficient funding to maintain the FBI database. And now they come up with the new buzz word- Universal

 

Do you have an FFL?

 

Here in Colorado, we use the CBI system and the CBI system never electronically gets the serial numbers of guns.

They stay on the 4473 in the gun shop.

Does the NICS processing screen take the serial numbers?

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Do you have an FFL?

Yes, except for interstate long arms purchases-sales only in NJ, all handguns by issued permit and long arms supported by a Firearms Identification Document have to go through an FFL.

The serial number is a required field on the interstate form supporting the purchase or sale .

The NICS call in form that is maintained in the data base requires a serial number as part of the description. NSN will be recorded if the firearm has no serial number, such as some of the pre 1898 antiques

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The NICS database traces a firearm by serial number from seller to buyer except for gun show purchases. But Congress never appropriated sufficient funding to maintain the FBI database. And now they come up with the new buzz word- Universal

 

 

Do you have an FFL?

 

Here in Colorado, we use the CBI system and the CBI system never electronically gets the serial numbers of guns.

They stay on the 4473 in the gun shop.

Does the NICS processing screen take the serial numbers?

Haccker - Same in MS (and I'm pretty confident most of the rest of the U.S.A.)

 

NICS is told "long gun" or "hand gun" and reply with approved, denied, or hold (if I remember my terminology correctly).

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NICS asks long gun or hand gun....then if it's long gun they ask rifle or shotgun...then caliber or gauge.Handgun caliber is asked.At least every one I've called in has been done this way since the early 90's when I got my FFL.NO serial number is asked.I'm the only one after my distributors that has the particulars on the firearm I'm selling.

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Charlie, in NJ the NICS check is really a manual telephone call to 2 women at the NJ State Police headquarters. In Jersey, they ask for the serial number

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Sounds like the Serial number as part of the approval process is NJ specific NOT a NICS database thing.

 

 

In Colorado, the CBI (Colorado Bureau of Investigation) only gets handgun, longgun, both, or other.

 

It is my understanding that the NICS database is a database of those that cannot own guns.

And that there is no NICS firearms database.

 

Is this true?

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Charlie, in NJ the NICS check is really a manual telephone call to 2 women at the NJ State Police headquarters. In Jersey, they ask for the serial number

That's not NICS.

 

Where on the 4473 section A is there a place for the Serial Number?

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Sounds like the Serial number as part of the approval process is NJ specific NOT a NICS database thing.

 

 

In Colorado, the CBI (Colorado Bureau of Investigation) only gets handgun, longgun, both, or other.

 

It is my understanding that the NICS database is a database of those that cannot own guns.

And that there is no NICS firearms database.

 

Is this true?

The FBI doesn't keep serial number records nor do they even know the model, caliber of the firearm...or at least this is not data that is provided when a background check is done.

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Charlie, in NJ the NICS check is really a manual telephone call to 2 women at the NJ State Police headquarters. In Jersey, they ask for the serial number

NICS is not a "NJ" department...it's the National Instant Criminal Background Check System...with a lot more the 2 women working it...

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Oh, and driving a car is not a constitutional right...

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That's not NICS.

 

Where on the 4473 section A is there a place for the Serial Number?

 

 

Right next to to the model in section D.Example right off the 4473 I did a few days ago.Section D....Manufacturer or importer....( H&R)Model ....( Buffalo Classic)....serial number(CBAXXXXXX)....type (rifle)...caliber or gauge....(45-70)

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There is not a Federal clearing house data base for firearms serial numbers.

Your state may do something IN ADDITION to the Federal NICS check, but that is on your state.

 

If you have ever had to do a BATF trace.

The BATF contacts the manufaucturer who tells them what distributor that gun went to.

The distributor tells them what dealer.

The dealer tells them what person purchased the firearm.

The individual tells them what they did with said gun - it is a long and convoluted process to find a guns history.

 

If there was some national tracking database, they certainly wouldn't have to go thru all that.

And (at least in Nevada) the serial number is only recorded on the 4473 form and in the bound book - the serial number is never asked for or given to the person on the other end of the background check phone call.

And the 4473 form (and the information contained upon it) is staying right at the dealers premises excepting the dealer going out of business or if requested by law enforcement.

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There is not a Federal clearing house data base for firearms serial numbers.

Your state may do something IN ADDITION to the Federal NICS check, but that is on your state.

 

If you have ever had to do a BATF trace.

The BATF contacts the manufaucturer who tells them what distributor that gun went to.

The distributor tells them what dealer.

The dealer tells them what person purchased the firearm.

The individual tells them what they did with said gun - it is a long and convoluted process to find a guns history.

 

If there was some national tracking database, they certainly wouldn't have to go thru all that.

And (at least in Nevada) the serial number is only recorded on the 4473 form and in the bound book - the serial number is never asked for or given to the person on the other end of the background check phone call.

And the 4473 form (and the information contained upon it) is staying right at the dealers premises excepting the dealer going out of business or if requested by law enforcement.

In NJ, as in other states, when a dealer goes out of business the 4473s are sent to the local PD. In theory, at least, those forms are never disposed of. In that sense there is a registration database.

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There is not a Federal clearing house data base for firearms serial numbers.

Your state may do something IN ADDITION to the Federal NICS check, but that is on your state.

 

If you have ever had to do a BATF trace.

The BATF contacts the manufaucturer who tells them what distributor that gun went to.

The distributor tells them what dealer.

The dealer tells them what person purchased the firearm.

The individual tells them what they did with said gun - it is a long and convoluted process to find a guns history.

 

If there was some national tracking database, they certainly wouldn't have to go thru all that.

And (at least in Nevada) the serial number is only recorded on the 4473 form and in the bound book - the serial number is never asked for or given to the person on the other end of the background check phone call.

And the 4473 form (and the information contained upon it) is staying right at the dealers premises excepting the dealer going out of business or if requested by law enforcement.

 

Good info, I think maybe he is confusing the NICS with the NCIC info ? Or like you said , maybe NJ FFLs are required to report SNs to them ??

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In NJ, as in other states, when a dealer goes out of business the 4473s are sent to the local PD. In theory, at least, those forms are never disposed of. In that sense there is a registration database.

Just a small aside.

FFLs that go out of business, send their information (4473s and bound books) to the BATF Out of Business Records Center - not local Law Enforcement.

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I regularly participate in the forum called "Political Jack" (you can google it) where I am one of the few pro-gun voices. A question I regularly pose to those backing the universal background check is "what if I sell a gun and don't do the check -- how will anyone know."

 

And it immediately becomes obvious that they expect a data base to be formed -- in other words, gun registration. Don't be fooled is my watchword -- when you hear someone talking about universal background checks, remember that what they mean is registration.

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The FBI doesn't keep serial number records nor do they even know the model, caliber of the firearm...or at least this is not data that is provided when a background check is done.

 

That was my understanding, but I was wondering if Colorado was missing something, as we use CBI check vs NICS.

I was concerned that whatever processing John Boy was describing was NJ specific stuff as National stuff.

You have confirmed what I believed.

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I think we're kidding ourselves if we believe the ATF isn't already using NICS data the build a database given the contents of this article for 2010. Why else would they be photographing the FFL's logs during audits? This is going on in spite of the fact that there are several laws on the books that forbids them from building a comprehensive database. This issue is how to stop this and the expansion of this unconstitutional activity.

 

:angry::angry::angry:

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I regularly participate in the forum called "Political Jack" (you can google it) where I am one of the few pro-gun voices. A question I regularly pose to those backing the universal background check is "what if I sell a gun and don't do the check -- how will anyone know."

 

And it immediately becomes obvious that they expect a data base to be formed -- in other words, gun registration. Don't be fooled is my watchword -- when you hear someone talking about universal background checks, remember that what they mean is registration.

Absolutely. The first time a heinous crime is committed and the criminal has a gun but no record of a background check....bang. Mandatory registration bills will hit the pipeline.

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Guest jeweler jim

Just a small aside.

FFLs that go out of business, send their information (4473s and bound books) to the BATF Out of Business Records Center - not local Law Enforcement.

Mine were sent to a location in GA and I was led to believe that it is a warehousing operation and that none of the info is ever copied or documented into a data base. This was some years ago. You don't suppose that the government would lie to me do you???

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Mine were sent to a location in GA and I was led to believe that it is a warehousing operation and that none of the info is ever copied or documented into a data base. This was some years ago. You don't suppose that the government would lie to me do you???

 

What? The government could lie. I thought that was a prerequisite to be a politician. :angry:

look at bho, eh, hc, jk, all born liars.

I personally expect that such info is scanned as they come across a need to see info from that dealer.

 

Sort of the same way that dealers report that atfs are photoing records in shops.

 

If any of you have actually seen atfs photoing/scanning/copying records, are they doing all the records or just the pages pertaining to certain guns?

An are they copying bound volumes and/or 4473s?

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I think we're kidding ourselves if we believe the ATF isn't already using NICS data the build a database given the contents of this article for 2010. Why else would they be photographing the FFL's logs during audits? This is going on in spite of the fact that there are several laws on the books that forbids them from building a comprehensive database. This issue is how to stop this and the expansion of this unconstitutional activity.

 

:angry::angry::angry:

 

The article you cite is about border states and the illegal request by holder for info on multiple assault type weapons going south of the border.

It appears to attempt to do the same thing the multiple handgun purchase form does.

Yet this approach will not stop crime, nor will it build a complete database. As it is only 4 states.

A serious threat to any form of database is to zero fund that effort and restrict how much money the host organization has.

Databases are expensive to have, keep and maintain. Look at Canada.

 

If the alleged numbers of guns are close to accurate > 100 Million guns imagine the data entry.

Each gun could have many records.

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Which rep is this? I've done a fair share of writing but it looks like this guy still doesn't get it.

Representative (as if he really does represent anyone) Falk, 17A

He's usualy pretty good about answering e-mails, but he's a DFLer, like "Whinesteen"

Knarley

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Right next to to the model in section D.Example right off the 4473 I did a few days ago.Section D....Manufacturer or importer....( H&R)Model ....( Buffalo Classic)....serial number(CBAXXXXXX)....type (rifle)...caliber or gauge....(45-70)

DUDE - Read my post. I said SECTION A. You know, the section that you transmit to NICS.

 

OY!

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Confusion and mis-information abounds......

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Guest Willie Earp

First Response

Here in Texas, our (state sponsored) Concealed Handgun License works as an automatic background check. The dealers love to see ya, when you pull out one of those.

 

Second Response

I see mexicans at our local gun shows buying up anything that doesn't need a background check, ALL THE TIME. Ya think that these are the same guys who are looking for something to buy with their drug money and take back across the border? The lowest price AK's AR's and handguns are their primary interest. I for one, would LOVE to block this sale and something like required US citizenship or a background check, but it is currently LEGAL with nothing to stop them.

 

Regards,

Willie

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First Response

 


Here in Texas, our (state sponsored) Concealed Handgun License works as an automatic background check. The dealers love to see ya, when you pull out one of those.

 


Second Response

 


I see mexicans at our local gun shows buying up anything that doesn't need a background check, ALL THE TIME. Ya think that these are the same guys who are looking for something to buy with their drug money and take back across the border? The lowest price AK's AR's and handguns are their primary interest. I for one, would LOVE to block this sale and something like required US citizenship or a background check, but it is currently LEGAL with nothing to stop them.

 


Regards,

 


Willie

 

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wow guest to 1089 posts...........your a Rapid typist....... seen the same thing myself Willie and not just low end guns either.......

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quote

" I for one, would LOVE to block this sale and something like required US citizenship or a background check, but it is currently LEGAL with nothing to stop them."

unquote.

 

All the seller has to do is refuse the sale. that's easy. Park the desire to make the almighty dollar, sell only to

those whom you know or can verify.


 



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There is not a Federal clearing house data base for firearms serial numbers.

Your state may do something IN ADDITION to the Federal NICS check, but that is on your state.

 

If you have ever had to do a BATF trace.

The BATF contacts the manufaucturer who tells them what distributor that gun went to.

The distributor tells them what dealer.

The dealer tells them what person purchased the firearm.

The individual tells them what they did with said gun - it is a long and convoluted process to find a guns history.

 

If there was some national tracking database, they certainly wouldn't have to go thru all that.

And (at least in Nevada) the serial number is only recorded on the 4473 form and in the bound book - the serial number is never asked for or given to the person on the other end of the background check phone call.

And the 4473 form (and the information contained upon it) is staying right at the dealers premises excepting the dealer going out of business or if requested by law enforcement.

wow

thank you for the information, however, that information does not make me feel safer from what the left wants next

records are records, have you ever seen an irs type lock out of a business?

ever see the irs decend upon a business just for taxes?

I dont trust em a danged bit, IRS will watch over oboma care, Irs may someday be the back door gun police as well

mileage will vary, as usual

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