There seems to be misunderstanding about awarding a P

[Captain Bill Burt]

KK, I would assume he's talking about the shooters handbook as one of the three, but what do I know?

 

Heck, I think it would be a good idea for clubs to print up copies of all the manuals and keep a copy on each stage in a three ring notebook. They could slip the stage scenario in the front cover clear pocket.

Yep!

[Big Whiskey]

Yep!

 

So Cap', I guess Allie was a bit more clear then I was ??

[Captain Bill Burt]

BW, you said:

So the point is, if a T.O. has the right to make a call on his own, over-riding 3 spotters, it needs to be added to our rules.

 

There a significant difference between Allie and I saying the rules need to be clarified and you questioning whether something is the rule and then following up by saying if it is it needs to be added.

The point is, one person should not have the authority to give a 10 second procedule, if there's not one other person that did not observe it. (Safety issues excluded).

Here you said that not only did you not like the rule, but it was a bad rule. Neither Allie, me or anyone else who is discussing the need for clarity took that position. I think the rules were created with a lot of thought and discussion. It's more than a little arrogant for you to summarily dismiss one, and refuse to enforce it.

[Big Whiskey]

See now Bill, this is where my problem is, your statement, " me dismissing and refusing ". No where in this thread did I say that I " do that nor that I will continue to do that ". You see what I'm say'n ??

If I'm simply questioning something, in this case a rule, I'm asking for clarification. Now, I find it real hard to believe that clarification has never come up on this subject, but, I guess not.

When I added my opinion, that it does'nt really seem fair that one person can give a 10 second penalty ( shooting sequence only ), would'nt it be apropriate for the shooters benefit that the spotters should make that call in a majority as with hits and misses, well, thats where I got clobbered.

So, I wanted to make a point. That point was, "edge hits". If a T.O. is trusted enough that they won't make a mistake and can ruin someones match by calling a 10 second penalty because their in the cat-bird seat to see it happen, maybe we should talk about tweaking that rule because, their in the same position to see and hear edge hits.

So in a nutshell, I'm only asking, would'nt it be a little more in the shooters favor, if P's for shooting out of sequence, hits and misses be a majority ruling.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

It maybe, 1 person that sees a shooter break the 170.

It maybe, 1 person that catches a shooter that overloaded a rifle.

It maybe, 1 person, the ULO that catches a live round under the hammer of a pistol.

It maybe, 1 person that catches a cocked pistol returned to holster.

It maybe, 1 person that sees a shooter come to firing line with a cocked rifle hammer.

It maybe, 1 person that saw an edge hit, that could be difference between a miss or clean stage.

It maybe, 1 person that saw the shooter come to firing line without shotgun ammo, or not enough.

 

many times its one person that catches a safety offense. I've also seen several times were it was 1 person that saved a shooter from a MDQ, when other spotters said it went over the berm. That 1 person showed were impact was, a tree trunk 2 feet below berm.

 

So having one person, a qualified spotter, or TO, who saw that a shooter did not follow stage procedures, and not follow up with declaring and giving a penalty. Is doing a disservice to the shooter, and the match.

Giving benefit to the shooter, okay. But giving advantage to a shooter by not giving an earned penalty is doing an injustice to other shooters, and the game.

 

There are many times over, only 1 person, the shooter themselves, that have called a penalty, when they realized at the unloading table, rounds in rifle, or live round still in pistol(s). Never caught by TO, nor spotters.

MT

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

So in a nutshell, I'm only asking, would'nt it be a little more in the shooters favor, if P's for shooting out of sequence, hits and misses be a majority ruling.

Is there a rampant problem with rogue TO's handing out undeserved P's?....NO......

 

There is NO problem......It doesn't need to be changed.

 

Stan

[Big Whiskey]

OK, i'm off the subject. For the record, " I have NO problem with the way things are ". I will not lobby to change anything.

Marshal, I only want to point out that, I agree with all your above. They are mainly safety issues. I was " only " speaking of shooting out of sequence.

[Captain Bill Burt]

BW, we're beating a dead horse here. You said, the rule should be different. I quoted you directly "one person should not have the authority to give a 10 second procedule". That's not a question, nor is it a suggestion. It's a declarative statement, period. You have made several of them, then backed away and accused people of twisting your words. You've claimed tons of pms that agree with you, then backed away from that statement too. You've made statements to the effect that you don't enforce the rules about Ps even when you're sure the shooter committed one unless you get support from either the shooter or spotters. You've said you will now follow the rules as they're written, then immediately stir the pot about another rule. You've mentioned many times what a great TO you are. There are several people posting on this thread who I know to be excellent TOs, they don't feel the need to proclaim it. A certain level of modesty and a willingness to be wrong is appropriate in a TO/PM. I've been wrong in the past and will be again in the future, but I try not to make the same mistakes twice and I'm always willing to be taught the error of my ways.

 

To be very blunt, bordering on rude, I wouldn't want you running a timer at a match where I was shooting. You seem to forget that as the TO you have an obligation to ALL the shooters in the match, not just the one you're running or the ones on your posse.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Is there a rampant problem with rogue TO's handing out undeserved P's?....NO......

 

There is NO problem......It doesn't need to be changed.

 

Stan

Sante Fe answered it very well. "It doesn't need to be changed". I will add a time at an out of state large match were I ended in 2nd place by .04, not because I was slower, nor that I got a miss called or several, (I shot clean). But, on 1 stage, I know I didn't shoot the 2nd pistol in the proper sequence, I knew. As I picked my long guns up, I could see all 3 spotters hold up clean. The TO said didn't anyone catch, or see the "P"? Shooter shot 2nd pistol incorrectly! I got the "P", and I deserved it and if there had to be 2 spotters to call it, instead of just 1, or just that the TO saw and called it, it would have been a diservice to the shooter that won 1st place, and deserved it.

CAS isn't just about speed and hitting the targets, its also about misses and penalties to arrive at the final time. Just as raw time, vs total times is the final results of a stage and match. MT

[Big Whiskey]

BW, we're beating a dead horse here. You said, the rule should be different. I quoted you directly "one person should not have the authority to give a 10 second procedule". That's not a question, nor is it a suggestion. It's a declarative statement, period. You have made several of them, then backed away and accused people of twisting your words. You've claimed tons of pms that agree with you, then backed away from that statement too. You've made statements to the effect that you don't enforce the rules about Ps even when you're sure the shooter committed one unless you get support from either the shooter or spotters. You've said you will now follow the rules as they're written, then immediately stir the pot about another rule. You've mentioned many times what a great TO you are. There are several people posting on this thread who I know to be excellent TOs, they don't feel the need to proclaim it. A certain level of modesty and a willingness to be wrong is appropriate in a TO/PM. I've been wrong in the past and will be again in the future, but I try not to make the same mistakes twice and I'm always willing to be taught the error of my ways.

 

To be very blunt, bordering on rude, I wouldn't want you running a timer at a match where I was shooting. You seem to forget that as the TO you have an obligation to ALL the shooters in the match, not just the one you're running or the ones on your posse.

 

The statement, " one person should not have the authority ", is a suggestion. It's the way you have taken it.

The fact that in the past I have always relied on the spotters for calling P's for out of sequence strings, hits and misses, because I was under the impression, the majority ruled, I have said, Thank you, that certainly will not happen again.

I would like you to show me where I have said, I have not, nor will I continue to follow our rules.

I beg to differ with you on the point of, I don't need to protect my integrity, when someone as yourself deems it necessary to pick someone apart.

And last, not to beat a dead horse ( but it seems thats what I enjoy to alot of folks ), As a T.O., you say, I make mistakes, others have said, as a T.O., I make mistakes. So, if it's possible a T.O. can make a mistake, is it so far off base to consider tweaking the rule that " he may call a procedule for shooting out of sequence by himself.

As for your last statement, well, I won't lower myself.

 

I will say, "you having a love for history", I know your a good guy.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Is there a rampant problem with rogue TO's handing out undeserved P's?....NO......

 

There is NO problem......It doesn't need to be changed.

 

Stan

+ a kazillion!

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'm sure you're a great guy too, and probably a lot of fun to shoot with, or maybe throw a few back with. I think you may want to sit for an RO course or two though. I believe that's also what PWB suggested.

[Big Whiskey]

I'm sure you're a great guy too, and probably a lot of fun to shoot with, or maybe throw a few back with. I think you may want to sit for an RO course or two though. I believe that's also what PWB suggested.

 

Yes Sir, I have full intensions on completing both refresher courses, and may I add Sir, if you are ever up this way, you are more than welcomed in my home for a home cooked meal.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Thank you! I don't get to Jersey much anymore, used to be there all the time back when I was working in NYC.

[Krazy Kajun]

CBB, I still say that if we ever find PWB's copy of the RO3 book all will be right with the world

 

(and yes I know it is the Shooter's Handbook, RO1 and RO2 books....in the words of one of our Georgia shooters....I was just Yank MaChain....well yours actually)

 

Kajun

[Anvil Al #59168]

OK, i'm off the subject. For the record, " I have NO problem with the way things are ". I will not lobby to change anything.

 

 

Then what do you keep going on about?