Colorado Update 3/20

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Take a picture of the mags with todays newspaper, showing the date.

That has save me butt twice, over the years.

LG

Good idea. Probable will work with the guns as well.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Reading Bloomberg tonight, I found some interesting quotes regarding potential civil disobedience in Colorado:

 

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-11/colorado-senate-passes-gun-control-bills-after-shootings.html?cmpid=yhoo

 

Here's some nice excerpts:

 

“It’s absurd,” said Senator Greg Brophy, a Republican from Wray, referring to the background checks bill, “because it doesn’t do anything to improve safety unless you’re willing to take the step of registering all firearms.”

Several Republicans, including Brophy, said they would openly defy a limit on ammunition magazines if it became law.

“I can say this with no hesitation -- I will not abide by this law if passed,” said Senator Vicki Marble, a Republican from Fort Collins. “Neither will my family, my friends, and judging from my e-mails, I doubt most of the people in my district.”

 

This is where the peaceful civil disobedience begins. These two State of Colorado Senators have grit that I respect. I would love

to join them waiving 30 round AR magazines in some protest at the State Capitol.

It's hard to defy the ban unless you illegally buy mags after the effective date of the law because all others wil be grandfathered. I have plenty of 30 rounders that will still be legal. But that's not exactly in defiance of the law. Buying a mag in New Mexico and taking it to Denver would definitely be.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

I moved out of MASS. because of these laws The wording in the CO. bill is exactally like in Mass. Yet to date no one has ever been convicted on the high cap mag law. in Mass. except Mass. is limited to ten.

[T. H. O' Sullivan]

It's hard to defy the ban unless you illegally buy mags after the effective date of the law because all others wil be grandfathered. I have plenty of 30 rounders that will still be legal. But that's not exactly in defiance of the law. Buying a mag in New Mexico and taking it to Denver would definitely be.

It sounds like Senators Brophy and Marble, and others would be openly defying the law after the effective date. I am guessing the new laws will be challenged in court. How they plan to defy will be interesting to watch and analyze. I suspect that many in Colorado will just ignore the new laws. Private sales will continue between individuals, firearms passed from father to child, and there will be no background checks.

 

As you know, a magazine is the weak link in any semi-auto/select fire weapon. Some don't work from the beginning, and others fail at some point. For my AR weapons, including some NFA items, I have a considerable collection of 30 round mags put away, as well as a stockpile of Wolff Springs, Magpul followers and Perma Slik G moly lube for refurbishing aluminium bodies. I refurbished mags for others during the 1994-2004 ban years.

 

For the Magpul polymer mags, they all have a "born on" date which some folks in Colorado have already begun removing with a hot needle or soldering iron. This way no one can tell if you had it before or after the law. The burden of proof is on the authorities. Colorado will not have the manpower to enforce all of this. I would be interested in knowing how Colorado law enforcement would handle an out of State traveler passing through Colorado with a 30 round Magpul magazine in the car?

 

Americans have always been a resourceful bunch when faced with tyranny. I expect many will rise to the occasion and defy or work around such anti-Constitutional laws. Our Founding Fathers would expect nothing less from us.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

It sounds like Senators Brophy and Marble, and others would be openly defying the law after the effective date. I am guessing the new laws will be challenged in court. How they plan to defy will be interesting to watch and analyze. I suspect that many in Colorado will just ignore the new laws. Private sales will continue between individuals, firearms passed from father to child, and there will be no background checks.

 

As you know, a magazine is the weak link in any semi-auto/select fire weapon. Some don't work from the beginning, and others fail at some point. For my AR weapons, including some NFA items, I have a considerable collection of 30 round mags put away, as well as a stockpile of Wolff Springs, Magpul followers and Perma Slik G moly lube for refurbishing aluminium bodies. I refurbished mags for others during the 1994-2004 ban years.

 

For the Magpul polymer mags, they all have a "born on" date which some folks in Colorado have already begun removing with a hot needle or soldering iron. This way no one can tell if you had it before or after the law. The burden of proof is on the authorities. Colorado will not have the manpower to enforce all of this. I would be interested in knowing how Colorado law enforcement would handle an out of State traveler passing through Colorado with a 30 round Magpul magazine in the car?

 

Americans have always been a resourceful bunch when faced with tyranny. I expect many will rise to the occasion and defy or work around such anti-Constitutional laws. Our Founding Fathers would expect nothing less from us.

Private transfers between family members is LEGAL and STATED as such in the wording of HB13-1229.

Aside from basic grandfathering under the magazine law HB13-1224 is language that if the accused asserts that they owned the magazine prior to the ban the burden of proof is on the state. Gee Innocent until proven guilty, What a concept. But can the Colorado Supreme Court actually make that happen.

There may be an interpretation that would protect a traveller from charges.

 

Why would I want to remove the born on date if it prior to the ban?

 

By the way Magpul has set up a system for Colorado residents to buy direct from Mapul what will be banned.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Private transfers between family members is LEGAL and STATED as such in the wording of HB13-1229.

Aside from basic grandfathering under the magazine law HB13-1224 is language that if the accused asserts that they owned the magazine prior to the ban the burden of proof is on the state. Gee Innocent until proven guilty, What a concept. But can the Colorado Supreme Court actually make that happen.

There may be an interpretation that would protect a traveller from charges.

 

Why would I want to remove the born on date if it prior to the ban? I don't understand that either??

 

By the way Magpul has set up a system for Colorado residents to buy direct from Mapul what will be banned. Ordered some last week.

[T. H. O' Sullivan]

Why would I want to remove the born on date if it prior to the ban? I don't understand that either??

 

By the way Magpul has set up a system for Colorado residents to buy direct from Mapul what will be banned. Ordered some last week.

I have spoken with friends and associates in Colorado who own Generation 2 and 3 Magpul magazines. They are experimenting with a techinque called stippling where a hot needle or fine tip on a soldering iron is used to create a uniform dot pattern over the exterior surface of the magazine. They say it improves handling or grip, but also obliterates the "born on" date. This technique has been used by tactical operators on polymer pistol grips. It looks pretty good. They are taking lots of pictures with image date stamps visible showing their firearms with the mags inserted or laying next to the firearm.

 

Once the law is in place, any new Magpul mags that have a "born on" date after would have the stippling applied, and any authorities would have no way to determine if the mag was pre or post ban. This process is being done with pre-ban mags to perfect the technique. If Magpul ever came out with a Gen 4 mag in a year or so, this technique would not work.

 

There have been informal discussions by Magpul spokesmen of removing the "born on" date from future magazines. This would be ideal. I'm assuming the burden of proof would be on any State official to prove mags were post ban.

 

This morning I spoke with a friend up near Del Norte, Colorado. He said he plans to use a Dremel with a fine sanding bit to obliterate the date stamp on the Magpul, then create a small square or rectangle in that place to place his initials, using paint or a heated stamp. Since this is just below the magwell catch on the left side, it would not be seen unless removed from the firearm. No date, no evidence. If asked why the mag was altered and the letters of his name added, he plans to tell anyone it is used to identify his mags from that of another person while at the firing ranges.

[Mordecai Sackett, SASS #5236L]

I suggest that there should be at least 1 ar15 30 rd mag in
each Colorado household even if you as of yet have not purchased an ar15
rifle. If you are now thinking or plan
on purchasing one down the road the mag is grandfathered in by the HB13-1224. The
rifles themselves have not yet been banned.
Future rifles will be 15 rds or less but with a grandfathered 30 rd
mag you are good to go. With Magpul selling

pmags to Colorado residents at a reasonable price you can’t
go wrong.

MS

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Gotta get those mags prior to 1 July 2013. That was the last date that I saw.

It could have changed by now. And all is variable with hickenlooser and the traitors in CO senate and CO house.

[Doc Holliday GJ]

Here is the real wording/or meaning of the law (corrected),

 

http://www.9news.com/video/2226703142001/1/True-scope-of-gun-control-bill-questioned

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Looks like at least 3 bills are sitting in Hickenlooper.... oops I mean lickenpooper's desk waiting for him to bless them., which he has already said he would. The magazine restriction, universal background check and background check fees are the ones. At least some amending has been done to keep some of us from becoming criminals....whatever the hell that means. One change to the universal background check at least helps a little. You may now loan someone a gun for up to 72 hours (as long as they are legally allowed to own one). If you are hunting and someone breaks a gun, you can loan them one. I was really worried and still am) about what do we do about our club sponsered jr. shooting team that travels around the state to shooting matches. Guess we still have issues there that will have to be worked out, probably with a damn lawyer!

 

Stupid damn politicians don't understand Or care about anything except their agenda on taking our guns and rights away from us.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Here is the real wording in the law,

 

http://www.9news.com/video/2226703142001/1/True-scope-of-gun-control-bill-questioned

 

This is NOT the real wording of the law. At best it is a speculative incomplete driveby glance at a few selected phrases of the bill.

 

The REAL bill in its latest (very likely final) revision is posted on the following link.

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/7E6713B015E62E6F87257B0100813CB5?Open&file=1224_enr.pdf

 

The real question is how will "readily converted" be interpreted and persecuted er prosecuted.

In the end the only real question brought up by the "news" article is are existing magazines really legal or are they grandfathered as high cap mags.

To me it appears that some may be high caps hence illegal and some may be legal.

 

In any event since this bill has both grandfathering clauses and a stated clause that places the burden of proof of refuting any assertion of permission to own squarely on the prosecution. It would tend make it difficult to prosecute.

 

 

The final copies of the other bills from the house are found at the following links

 

Paying for background checks;

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/04005C2BDBC54E4087257AEE00585D19?Open&file=1228_enr.pdf

 

The one requiring background checks for all transfers is not finalized but the latest version is this.

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/590C29B4C02AFC2F87257A8E0073C303?Open&file=1229_rer.pdf

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Looks like at least 3 bills are sitting in Hickenlooper.... oops I mean lickenpooper's desk waiting for him to bless them., which he has already said he would. The magazine restriction, universal background check and background check fees are the ones. At least some amending has been done to keep some of us from becoming criminals....whatever the hell that means. One change to the universal background check at least helps a little. You may now loan someone a gun for up to 72 hours (as long as they are legally allowed to own one). If you are hunting and someone breaks a gun, you can loan them one. I was really worried 9and still am) about what do we do about our club sponsered jr. shooting team that travels around the state to shooting matches. Guess we still have issues there that will have to be worked out, probably with a damn lawyer!

 

Stupid damn politicians don't understand Or care about anything except their agenda on taking our gugs and rights away from us.

 

 

 

Target shooting has been excluded from transfer issues. See that later sections of the link in 1224 of my post #47.

 

It also appears that CAS will not be affected by the transfer issue.

The magazine issue could affect those with slide type actions with tubular magazines like the Colt lightning magazine rifle.

If it has a long enough barrel it could run a foul of 15 rounds.

The use of sxs are not affected nor are revolvers, 1911s have too small a magazine.

The winchesters/ubertis 1873, 1866, 1860, 1892, 1894, 1886 marlin 1894s, and the henry big boy are all exempt as tubular magazine lever firearms.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Colorado HB13_1229 has passed from the senate towards the governors desk.

 

Final bill is found on this link

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/590C29B4C02AFC2F87257A8E0073C303?open&file=1229_enr.pdf

 

The other house bill can be found from my post 47 and the links to the other bills.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Last night the local CBS affiliate kktv's night news anchor stated that Governor Hickenlooper has both HB13-1224 and HB13-1229 on his desk and that he has said that he would sign both bills. 1229 is the bill that expands background checks to cover privates sales. 1224 is to limit the capacity of magazines.

[Utah Bob #35998]

He'll sign them on Wednesday.

Oddly, he hasn't responded to my entreaties.

[Calico Mary]

The Hick has said all along he would sign any anti-gun bills that made it as far as his desk...he couldn't care less what we think, so why would he bother responding??

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I did actually get a response from the hick as CM calls him.

I had sent two messages about 2 different bills. Got the same response for both.

 

His new real name is hickenloser.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

He'll sign them on Wednesday.

Oddly, he hasn't responded to my entreaties.

 

Did you really expect a response to your entreaties?

 

Remember it is a sign of insanity to do the same thing multiple times and expect different results.

(take that comment as a meaning of insanity as applied to hickenloser not you UB.)

[Utah Bob #35998]

Did you really expect a response to your entreaties?

 

Remember it is a sign of insanity to do the same thing multiple times and expect different results.

(take that comment as a meaning of insanity as applied to hickenloser not you UB.)

Of course not. We don't have an appropriate biting sarcasm smiley.

 

Hickengoober sez I.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Sorry about that UB, I have never become an expert on picking the right smiley face type thingy.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

We need to remember this come the next election day,

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Sage, it will hard to forget this act of treason by the hickenloser and his minions.

[Squint Westwood SASS#2165]

Interestingly, the effect of these bills is that your personal fireams will, in effect, be the property of the state. By this I mean you need permission to purchase them, carry them, use them, and/or sell or transfer them. However, you do have the right to pay for them and keep them in your house. Anything beyond that requires permission. Just a thought. Squint

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

I did actually get a response from the hick as CM calls him.

I had sent two messages about 2 different bills. Got the same response for both.

 

His new real name is hickenloser.

The only sure fire way to get an unrehearsed (or form letter) response is to track folks down and confront them face to face The more the merrier.

I seem to remember the Minnesota (or was it Wisconsin) capitol building being over run with morons sometime back about unionization or something.

THAT kind of turn out is what is needed, especially when FREEDOM is at stake. And hell, gun owners far outnumber the Occupy movement. But I suppose we all got too much going on and are worried how we'll look in the media to be concerned with freedom.

Colorado saddens me. With estimated 1.8 million or so gun owners in Colorado, where was everybody?

[Utah Bob #35998]

The only sure fire way to get an unrehearsed (or form letter) response is to track folks down and confront them face to face The more the merrier.

I seem to remember the Minnesota (or was it Wisconsin) capitol building being over run with morons sometime back about unionization or something.

THAT kind of turn out is what is needed, especially when FREEDOM is at stake. And hell, gun owners far outnumber the Occupy movement. But I suppose we all got too much going on and are worried how we'll look in the media to be concerned with freedom.

Colorado saddens me. With estimated 1.8 million or so gun owners in Colorado, where was everybody?

If you lived here you would have seen tremendous opposition from gun owners, businesses, and the Sheriffs.

The lines were long at the capitol to testify against the legislation. Rocky Mountain Gun Owners worked tirelessly. But the libs ignored all this.

The Dems control both houses and the Governor. They got visits from Biden with a pocketful of favors and Bloomberg with pockets full of money. Gabby Giffords' husband travelled from Arizona to support the bills. Family members of victims from around the country provided emotional, if illogical, testimony. The deck was stacked.

The Governor signed 3 of the bills this morning; mag capacity limits, increased background checks, and fees and taxes for gun sales.

 

Don't ask where the gun owners were. Just pray a liberal government doesn't get a foot hold in your state and ram an anti-gun agenda through.

Our next fight will be to remove these people from office.

[Dusty Balz, SASS#46599]

Can you start a re-call effort like they libs did in WI? if noting else it will generate press and get the dems on edge

[Irish Tom]

Just a note -197 requires those ACCUSED of dom violence give up their guns. Accused, not convicted. We won't worry about due process any more apparently. I think this one may be challenged as unconstitutional.

That is worrisome. Hopefully it will be overturned by the courts. I'm sure it will be challenged. My deepest sympathies to the good folks of Colorado. Keep fighting.

 

Irish Tom

[Doc Holliday GJ]

Can you start a re-call effort like they libs did in WI? if noting else it will generate press and get the dems on edge

 

I believe recall committees have been set up, process is forthcoming soon....

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

One thing for sure, I intend to dip into my $$$ stash come the next election and donate to ANY Republican who runs against any of these jerks on the front range. I can't vote for them, but I can support them the best way I know how!!

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

If you lived here you would have seen tremendous opposition from gun owners, businesses, and the Sheriffs.

The lines were long at the capitol to testify against the legislation. Rocky Mountain Gun Owners worked tirelessly. But the libs ignored all this.

The Dems control both houses and the Governor. They got visits from Biden with a pocketful of favors and Bloomberg with pockets full of money. Gabby Giffords' husband travelled from Arizona to support the bills. Family members of victims from around the country provided emotional, if illogical, testimony. The deck was stacked.

The Governor signed 3 of the bills this morning; mag capacity limits, increased background checks, and fees and taxes for gun sales.

 

Don't ask where the gun owners were. Just pray a liberal government doesn't get a foot hold in your state and ram an anti-gun agenda through.

Our next fight will be to remove these people from office.

 

 

UB where do you see in the wording of any of these bills, a tax?

All HB13_1228 is asking for is for the users of the CBI background check to pay for it?

Yes I know that could be considered a tax. But more likely a user fee.

[Utah Bob #35998]

UB where do you see in the wording of any of these bills, a tax?

All HB13_1228 is asking for is for the users of the CBI background check to pay for it?

Yes I know that could be considered a tax. But more likely a user fee.

Right. There was a plan for an additional tax in the early form of the bill but on reading the final version, only the background fee is htere. No limit on the fee though so we'll see what that ends up being.

[Utah Bob #35998]

AARRRRRRRGGGGHHHH! Time for a drink.

Colorado now joins New York as the first states to pass stricter gun laws after the shooting at an elementary
school in Newtown, Conn., in December ignited the national debate over guns.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

 

AARRRRRRRGGGGHHHH! Time for a drink.

Colorado now joins New York as the first states to pass stricter gun laws after the shooting at an elementary

school in Newtown, Conn., in December ignited the national debate over guns.

 

We do need to consider that CO has also had two mass murders of its own.

Columbine High School and Aurora theater.

 

Of course non of the stricter gun laws would have saved any of the victims.

The Clinton era Assault Weapons ban was in effect during Columbine killing.

And the max limit on magazines would have failed as the ultra high cap mag used jammed.

 

Paying for background checks will do nothing to stop/limit crime etc.

Universal background Checks on all sales would not have stopped either killing.

Yet a law on the books was not prosecuted. One of the guns in the possession of one of the Columbine killers was a straw purchase.

To the best of my knowledge that person was not prosecuted.

[Dakota Doc Martin, SASS #21774]

It now goes to Governor John Hickenlooper.

Ya mean Governor Dickinpooper?