Captain Bill Burt Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 So based on the conversation on another thread I thought I would revive this dead horse so we can beat on it some more. Two part question. First part. In your view is it best for the TO to strive for a consistent time between the standby and beep, or mix it up to prevent shooter 'jumping the beep"? Second part. What, if anything do the rule books have to say about the subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 So based on the conversation on another thread I thought I would revived this dead horse so we can beat on it some more. Two part question. First part. In your view is it best for the TO to strive for a consistent time between the standby and beep, or mix it up to prevent shooter 'jumping the beep"? Second part. What, if anything do the rule books have to say about the subject? Yes, uh no, uh yes, uh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Consistent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Here is what I posted in that other thread: "Well my first RO I course was taught by a member of the Wild Bunch. When it came to the timer we were taught to be consistant as possible on the span between standby and beep for all the shooters we time. We were told not to mess with the shooters timing for his first shot. We were told to watch for shooters trying to jump the beep but don't do things to "help" them do it. We were told to do eveything possible to get the shooter started without issues. Some on this thread seem to feel otherwise and would do things to mess with a shooters clean start, some would even seem to use the timer to mess with shooters they feel are too fast to get them off their game." Someone else posted this from RO I handbook: Page 12 ROI "It's better the shooters are comfortable and given the courtesy of a starting rhythm. We are not trying to surprise them with the start signal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Lee Goode Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Consistent +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Consistent. RO1 - "don't be a hard ass". Don't see how can anyone not wanting to be consistent would be following the prime directive. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 hmmm, big horse,,,,,,not moving,,,,,,open safe, hmmm, big riful,,,,,heavy load,,,,,,,,click, slickkk, click,,,,,,aim.........BOOM!!!!!!!! kick kick kick,,,BOOM,,,,,yup tis DEAD...... yes, unles yura messin with Rye, consistant BOOM boom BOOM BOOM BOOM cpbc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 SASS ROI Page 15: "After it is apparent they understand the stage, say again, "Is the Shooter Ready?" Don’t just say "Stand By." It’s better when shooters are comfortable and given the courtesy of a starting rhythm. We are not trying to surprise them with the start signal." How would you like it if the TO were to do the stutter dance when your turn came to start shooting. There isn't enough money on the line to screw with someones concentration. Someone does it to me and I'll walk, don't have the time for other peoples games, I'm here to shoot and have fun. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 8, 2013 Author Share Posted March 8, 2013 SASS ROI Page 15: "After it is apparent they understand the stage, say again, "Is the Shooter Ready?" Don’t just say "Stand By." It’s better when shooters are comfortable and given the courtesy of a starting rhythm. We are not trying to surprise them with the start signal." How would you like it if the TO were to do the stutter dance when your turn came to start shooting. There isn't enough money on the line to screw with someones concentration. Someone does it to me and I'll walk, don't have the time for other peoples games, I'm here to shoot and have fun. Just my .02 I wouldn't like it at all. I think consistent is the right answer, but took a fair amount of flack for it earlier, so I wanted to hear from other, more experienced cowboys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I wouldn't like it at all. I think consistant is the right answer, but took a fair amount of flack for it earlier, so I wanted to hear from other, more experienced cowboys. It's still winter. Cabin fever and all of that stuff... Do people actually ask 'Is the shooter ready?' at their matches? Our stage instructions always state when the shooter is ready, say their line. Next shooter... Remember the Alamo!... Stand by!... 1-3 seconds (per the ROI Handbook) BEEP! In reality, I probably have a 2 second lag between the stand by and the beep. Tempest in a teapot, tempest in a teapot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 I generally shoot with the same crowd every weekend and we know each other really well. I therefore don't ask if the shooter is ready because I don't want them to feel I'm rushing them. I take my position, keep an eye on what they're doing and when they give me the line I say 'Standby' and about 1-1.5 seconds later give them a beep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Nope, no "Is the shooter ready?" from me, unless I spot something and say, "Planning to shoot the stage without your shotshells?" or "Do you always start with one ear plug hanging on the end of the string?" Once shooter indicates ready (either by a line or a nod), it's "Standby" and roughly one second to the beep. Unless the posse marshal has made it clear that they want "Shooter has indicated ready" thrown in also. Then, go with the flow. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major BS Walker Regulator Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 My normal TO-ing is after I watch the shooter scratch, sniff, adjust their crotch etc. then start to settle in, I say " when the shooter is ready" they say the line and they get a quick "stand by" and a 1 to1 1/2 sec. beep max. A 2 to 3 sec. delay is abuse to a cowboy shooter. If a TO made me wait 3 seconds on the timer, I think the TO should get a "spirit of the game " penilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major BS Walker Regulator Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Sorry, to answer the question " Constant " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 they say the line and they get a quick "stand by" and a 1 to1 1/2 sec. beep max. A 2 to 3 sec. delay is abuse to a cowboy shooter. If a TO made me wait 3 seconds on the timer, I think the TO should get a "spirit of the game " penilty. +1 My usual "Stand By" to "Beep" delay is about 1 sec - almost always 1 to 1-1/2 sec as I am sure I vary a little given different stages, conditions and days. I believe consistency is proper and called for under the rules cited above. Reaction time is a part of the game just like drag racing, but you cannot jump it - and I do watch for that! BTW, there is NEVER a horse so dead that a maggot might not still be alive inside......... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I'm going to offer up a differing opinion. I prefer to make it a bit more random. Reason is that if you do it the same way every time, a shooter will anticipate the beep and thereby possibly get an advantage, albeit small. I don't think that's fair to the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I'm going to offer up a differing opinion. I prefer to make it a bit more random. Reason is that if you do it the same way every time, a shooter will anticipate the beep and thereby possibly get an advantage, albeit small. I don't think that's fair to the others. Said better than me. It is not to penalize anyone, rather to keep an even playing field. People will disagree, but hey, such is life. I say to-may-to and you say to-mah-to. Come on folks, we have a lot of bigger things to worry about than a half-second start on a friggin' timer. God save the queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 In the noise rich enviroment that a shooting match provides its only COMMON courtesy to keep the start consistant if you want it random then use the random feature on the timer don't choose when, how and to whom you'll do it to. I'm sure if you use the random feature you will slow down the match and cause some of the older and harder of hearing shooters problems. In the end though guess what, you have only screwed the little old lady from PoDunk and the old vet thats struggling to shoot anyway that's certainly something to take away with you and be proud of. The quick guy is still quick even if you start him three times. Of course your mileage may vary. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I'm going to offer up a differing opinion. I prefer to make it a bit more random. Reason is that if you do it the same way every time, a shooter will anticipate the beep and thereby possibly get an advantage, albeit small. I don't think that's fair to the others. Doc, I understand your rationale, but I go back to my drag racing analogy (or any timed event like racing for that matter - I've raced motorcycles for 40+ years in multiple disciplines). Reaction time is a part of ANY timed event, and a contestant's ability to react or anticipate (without jumping) is as much a part of a timed game as all the other things that are taught to shorten our times. The key is enforcing the even playing field if a shooter "jumps" the beep, and that is where we may need more consistent enforcement. My opinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Doc, I understand your rationale, but I go back to my drag racing analogy (or any timed event like racing for that matter - I've raced motorcycles for 40+ years in multiple disciplines). The key is enforcing the even playing field if a shooter "jumps" the beep, and that is where we may need more consistent enforcement. My opinion, of course. Good opinion, Harvey. Your solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Good opinion, Harvey. Your solution?Good question Okie. In drag racing at the bigger events they ultimately went to electronic timing with transponder and lights and "traps" at BOTH the start and finish, but in the rest of racing, even at the pro level, the starts are mostly still monitored by humans and done by the starter waving a flag or initiating a set of lights (the RO/TO in our case). As a competitor I study the starter to get a clue as to when they are starting to throw the flag, but if I am off a bit early, they almost always catch me and penalize me or have a restart, BECAUSE THEY ARE TRAINED TO WATCH FOR THAT. IMO, In our simpler sport with the human element, the most simple and effective improvement is to better educate out RO/TOs about watching for and enforcing a "jump start" violation. I do not remember any significant discussion or emphasis on this in either our ROI or ROII training. I think it should be emphasized more. A good part of my opinion is based on racing just short of 50 years with human initiated starts (flags or lights pulled by the starter) and noting that when the starter played games with us, we had MORE jumped and false starts than when he was consistent AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, STRICT when a jump occurred. We really don't have a lot of this in SASS, and that is probably why it is not taught? Thanks, Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I wonder why drag racers aren't surprised? I'd venture to say for the same reason we're not supposed to surprise shooters. We're racing...with guns. The goal is to give everyone the same start. The only way to do that is to be consistent. First light on the tree is "Stand by" and the green light is the beep. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwg-GF_kwQ I don't think people are trying to jump the timer. If they do, I stop them. It's not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Said better than me. It is not to penalize anyone, rather to keep an even playing field. People will disagree, but hey, such is life. I say to-may-to and you say to-mah-to. Come on folks, we have a lot of bigger things to worry about than a half-second start on a friggin' timer. God save the queen. If I come to your shoot and you wait 3 or more seconds from the standby to the beep, I will not shoot until you do it all over again. If it is three seconds again, I will just go to the unloading table. Life is too short to get freustrated in a sport that is supposed to be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 If I come to your shoot and you wait 3 or more seconds from the standby to the beep, I will not shoot until you do it all over again. If it is three seconds again, I will just go to the unloading table. Life is too short to get freustrated in a sport that is supposed to be fun. You senile old coot. You have been to my shoot. I was running the timer. Did you ever wait three seconds? No. Did you go off to the unloading without shooting the stage? No. Did you shoot fast for an old fart? Yes. Do I play games with shooters? No. I am just quoting the precious rule books, which are at times lacking. This is where common sense comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The book suggests 1-3 seconds. That's what I consistantly give .... somewhere between 1&3 seconds (I am human) ..... sorry, are there any other rules that are not liked ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 If you have the pleasure of being the TO when it is my turn to shoot I would be most appreciative if you would be consistant. Although if you aren't it will give us someone to talk about on the two hour ride home. It will start out with use discussing your TO style and lead to making fun of everything from your shirt (KK) to your guncart ..........Hmmm, come to think of it, thanks in advance for the laughs and memories for not being consistant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablo slim Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 "Standby"-One Mississppi- BEEP EVERYTIME Everyone- Period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 When running the timer I always say "Stand by" and then wait only about a second. That way the shooters know it's coming like NOW! (Unless I'm running the timer for Cheyenne and he's having a bad day, it's fun to see him sweat!!) Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Don't care. I don't game the start --- so either way is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The science is called plyometrics. It's making the long muscles twitch faster causing a quicker start, faster takeoff, higher jump, longer toss etc. When I was competing in Scottish Athletics, it would help when the time came to make the caber turn or that weight go over the bar. Top track athletes use it to anticipate the start. You don't vary the beep. You penalize those that jump. In track, one jump you restart, the second jump you're out. In swimming, one jump you're out. In dirt track stock cars, one jump you're sent to the rear of the pack. In all cases, the timing is consistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Mingo Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Heeee Haaaa ...I remember a match i was watching the TO was all-most precise 2 sec. between stand-by and Beep I watch him for 5 or 6 shooters and had him timed perfect... I got in line ,got loaded..got called to the stage.. Now I'm thinking ,I'm going to game this one as soon as I hear stand-by I'll count thousand-one,thousand-two and draw my pistol.. Well they changed TO's and the new guy goes stand-by-beep I standing there going thousand-one,thousand-two after the beep.. Now I don't care what the hell they do..I dont move till I hear the beep.. Heeee Haaaa Crazy Mingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 A glimpse into the mind of Mingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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