Shotgun shells for cowboy -high or low brass

[Shootin Straight]

Very new to shotgun reloading. I have a lot of factory high base hulls. Are these better or worse, or ? for reloading? Most of what I have reloaded are low base AA hulls.

I'm using a MEC 600 jr. Thanks for any help out there.

 

Shootin Straight

[Krazy Kajun]

The loads used for CAS shooting are, for the most part, light due to the fact that you are shooting against the clock. The heavier the recoil the more you have to move your barrel back down to get back on target.

 

All that said most folks I see use low brass shells for CAS. AA hulls are quite popular because they are smooth...as opposed to the ribbed hulls. If you are shooting a SxS shotgun you have to shuck the hulls manually so smooth ones tend to shuck easier than ribbed hulls. If you are shooting a 97 shotgun ribbed hulls are fine since you are using a pump type shotgun.

 

Kajun

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I load on a MEC Jr and prefer loading low-base to high-base shells. It's less work to size the low-base shells.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You will see the fastest shooters of side-by-sides shooting either Win AA or Rem STS smooth, low brass target hulls almost exclusively. That gun depends upon manual ejection (by the shooter's arm motions)

 

You will see many 97 and 87 shooters (positive ejection by the action's motion) using a wide variety of hulls, but even with those folks, the reloaders among them snap up Rem and Win target hulls, too.

 

Those two target hulls are smooth, as mentioned above. The hulls last longer (the Rem STSs are best for lasting a long time). The hulls are more precisely made (less chance of a failure to feed, failure to fire or failure to eject). The hulls are made with brass case heads that resize easily, rather than plated steel heads which can be a bear to size down to minimum size in a Mec 600 Jr.

 

CAN someone load hi-brass ribbed field hulls with their 6 point crimps and soft plastic for CAS? Sure, they CAN. Someone can also love an ugly dog. But the widest variety of low-recoil loads are designed around two hulls - the Win AA and the Rem STS. Those hulls cost more - and they are worth it to competitive shooters. So, especially if you are not trying to win the match, and you don't have a double that is sensitive to the shell type, you could load high-base hulls by the boatload and have fun. Just depends upon what you are trying to have to hang on your wall or brag about at the next match.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Knarley Bob]

As far as the Winchester hulls, the high brass is the same inside as the low. Same volume. Most people reload the low because that is what the the people who don't reload leave behind, seeing as the low brass is usually used for skeet & trap. I use the High brass for hunting loads, cuz I can look at it and know if it's high brass it's hotter than the low brass I load for targets. I used ti shoot AA's only and there low brass was lead, High brass was steel. Now Federal hulls are steel, but that is a different story.

Hope this helps.

Knarley

[Hogleg Hunter]

I guess I am using high brass considering that they are all brass.

[Big Jake1001]

 

I also remember, back in the paper days ({elsewhere} still sells them) that a High brass had a "low base wad" and vice versa. High base wads filled the shell for lighter loads of powder and shot whereas low base wads (high brass) made for more room for powder and shot. Found it hard to believe at the time, until I loaded some w/ trap bushings into high brass shells and the crimps caved in.

 

High brass = field load

low brass = trap load

 

High brass = low base

Low brass = high base

 

The above is from another Forum. There is a difference between High BRASS and High Base. Low BRASS and Low Base. Brass is on the outside and Base is on the inside of the Shotgun Shell. High BRASS can have Low Base for more Powder, and Low BRASS can have a High Base for a less Powder load. Lots of People confuse these two terms.

 

Jake

 

 

 

 

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

I had a bunch of once-fired high brass shells that I loaded with BP, thinking the high brass would let them shuck easier. Boy was I wrong. Those hulls wouldn't drop out for anything. Now I only use low-brass hulls for match use.

 

Holler

[John Boy]

First of all - factory high brass shot shells are illegal for SASS matches

Secondly - reload empty high brass hulls with a 'low brass' charge using a proper plastic wad or more lubed felt wads for proper column height and they will shuck the same as low brass ... if the bases are resized to original factory dimension.

 

History of low and high base shotgun shells: In the 1800's shotgun shells were paper and loaded with black powder. Black powder burns at 2300 degrees. With more drams of powder in the paper hulls using a low brass base - the heat would burn the paper case. So, the height of the brass base was increased to accommodate the additional drams equivalent of more black powder for increased velocity

 

Today, manufacturers still use the old black powder designation of drams equivalent with high brass bases. But in fact, it could be discontinued because different smokeless powders have different burn rates equating to a smaller charge of a faster burning smokeless that could be used for high velocity shells in a low brass base

[John E. Law]

First of all - factory high brass shot shells are illegal for SASS matches

Why? and Where does it say that??

 

 

Shooter's handbook pg 11

• Shotgun shot size must be number 4 lead birdshot or smaller for all events (no steel or plated shot).

• Magnum and high velocity shotgun shell loads are not allowed.

• Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the specific gauge.

• Shotgun Shell shall not be scored (ringed) as to cause the shot-shell case, wad, and shot column to be shot from the firearm as one projectile.

• Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity.

 

I don't see anything about high brass.

 

JEL

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Why? and Where does it say that??

 

 

Shooter's handbook pg 11

• Shotgun shot size must be number 4 lead birdshot or smaller for all events (no steel or plated shot).

• Magnum and high velocity shotgun shell loads are not allowed.

• Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the specific gauge.

• Shotgun Shell shall not be scored (ringed) as to cause the shot-shell case, wad, and shot column to be shot from the firearm as one projectile.

• Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity.

 

I don't see anything about high brass.

 

JEL

+1

[John E. Law]

Here are some high brass Federal that fit within the rules. I think it's little hot for my SxS but would work fine for my 97 and it's within the rules. It don't matter to me, I load my own.

 

Federal Premium Gold Medal Paper Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 1-1/8 oz #7-1/2 Shot

 

Technical Information

Gauge/Bore: 12

• Shell Length: 2-3/4"
• Shot Weight: 1-1/8 oz
• Shot Size: #7-1/2
• Shot Type: Lead
• Ballistics Information:
• Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Since factory high-brass are usually magnum or high velocity, they would be outlawed for that reason. But not all factory high-brass are such. Last year I bought several boxes of Federal Target Loads that are marked "Low Recoil - Subsonic". They have 1 1/8 oz shot with 1 5/8 Dram Equivalent for a muzzle velocity of 900fps. They are ribbed with high brass. I thought that was very unusual for a light load. I have never seen these shells for sale since.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

First of all - factory high brass shot shells are illegal for SASS matches

Your source?

LG

[Big Jake1001]

Again, someone not knowing what he's talking about. High Brass is NOT illegal for SASS. Shot size matters more than Brass.

We had someone show up with #4 BUCK, thinking it was OK because the rules said #4 or smaller.

Base refers to how high or low the inside of the shell is and how much powder it will hold under the wad before the shot goes in.

 

Jake

[Gary Norsk]

I think 90% are incorrect, The reason the high base shells should not be used is because we are not trying to kill anything at 90 yards and that goes for the targets. most clubs have restrictions on shot size. So if a soft load is put in a high base shell it should pass muster. One problem with the MEC 600 jr is it will not cam the high base shell out of the size die all the way, this has been corrected with the versamec 700 and the Mark 5 upgrade of the Mec 600 jr. So the rule for "No High Base" shells means no heavy high base loads. If the rule was enforced I would think it would also mean no solid brass cases. GN

[Big Jake1001]

I think 90% are incorrect, The reason the high base shells should not be used is because we are not trying to kill anything at 90 yards and that goes for the targets. most clubs have restrictions on shot size. So if a soft load is put in a high base shell it should pass muster. One problem with the MEC 600 jr is it will not cam the high base shell out of the size die all the way, this has been corrected with the versamec 700 and the Mark 5 upgrade of the Mec 600 jr. So the rule for "No High Base" shells means no heavy high base loads. If the rule was enforced I would think it would also mean no solid brass cases. GN

Gary, did you not READ the post above about BASE and BRASS. ONE more time here folks....High BASE means less room inside for LESS powder and a lighter Load, Low BASE inside means more room for more powder and a heavy load. Brass on the outside can be High or Low.

 

 

High brass = field load.......Low base...more powder...heavy load

low brass = trap load.........High base...less powder.....lite load

 

High brass = low base.........Brass outside.....base inside

Low brass = high base........Brass outside.....base inside

Gee, I hope this isn't too confusing for you guys

 

Big (whats got his tongue in his cheek) Jake

[Gary Norsk]

Sorry bout that in the past there was a difference in volumes with different brands etc. So I will read more carefully . GN

[Shootin Straight]

Thanks Pards......a lot of great information. I now have a bucket of hulls to give away, and know what better to look for.

[John Boy]

 

First of all - factory high brass shot shells are illegal for SASS matches

Your source?

LG

 

 

 

Big Jake 1001

Again, someone not knowing what he's talking about. High Brass is NOT illegal for SASS. Shot size matters more than Brass.

 

 

 

Grits, the source is ...

Handbook, Page 11

Magnum and high velocity shotgun shell loads are not allowed.

 

So, let me repeat it again ... First of all - factory high brass shot shells are illegal for SASS matches

Okie Dookie Gents?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

JB, he's ask'n about reloading, not factory.

You can use 'high-base' hulls for this.

LG

[John Boy]

JB, he's ask'n about reloading, not factory.

You can use 'high-base' hulls for this.

LG

Yes, that is a fact for reloads if one doesn't reload them with a high velocity charge

[John E. Law]

 

Grits, the source is ...

Handbook, Page 11

Magnum and high velocity shotgun shell loads are not allowed.

 

So, let me repeat it again ... First of all - factory high brass shot shells are illegal for SASS matches

Okie Dookie Gents?

Are your just assuming that all high brass shells are magnum?? If your read my previous post the shells I listed are high brass and still fit well within the ammunition rules.

 

JEL

[John Boy]

 

Are your just assuming that all high brass shells are magnum?? If your read my previous post the shells I listed are high brass and still fit well within the ammunition rules.

John E ... I'm assuming nothing - read and then factually post back the answer

The handbook says high velocity and magnum - it has no words relating using low and high brass bases. The handbook only says no high velocity and magnum shotgun shells - no mention of maximum velocity that I could determine but in the vernacular, a high brass is high velocity and also magnum depending on the dram equilavent

The Federal 7 1/2's are 3 dram eq @ 1200 fps with a high base marketed as a Target Load ... are they SASS legal or illegal? Ask PaleWolf!

 

http://www.saami.org/Glossary/display.cfm?letter=D

DRAM EQUIVALENT

The accepted method of correlating relative velocities of shotshells loaded with smokeless

propellant to shotshells loaded with black powder. The reference black powder load chosen was a 3 dram charge of black powder, with 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1200 fps. Therefore, a 3 dram equivalent load using smokeless powder would be with 1 1/8 oz. of shot having a velocity of 1200 fps. or 1 1/4 oz. of shot and a velocity of 1165 fps. A 3 1/4 dram equivalent load might have 1 1/8 oz. of shot and a velocity

of 1255 fps. Abbreviated Dram Equiv.

[White Buffalo]

I started with the federal shells that I got from Walmart in the box of 100. They were ribbed and were a pain to get out of the gun. Then I started reloading shells and started with them. Same problem. I got my hands on reclaim shot and Remington Nitro 27 shells. Boy did those things just pop right out of the gun with ease. I picked up all the nitro 27s at a local skeet range

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I don't remember the exact quote, but seem to recall that my Lee Reloading Manual pretty much indicates that high brass used in the manufacturing of modern loads is a marketing ploy to make people think they're buying more powerful loads (at a premium price of course) when in fact the same velocity could be derived safely from low brass shells. In essence, what John Boy said...with the exception that John Boy might have bought into the marketing...much as I had until reading the Lee Manual. In other words, I always assumed high brass meant high velocity. It doesn't always.

 

Handgunner, the fact that your shells have high brass doesn't in and of itself mean they are not good for reloading. If they crimp well and shuck from your shotgun without a fight, use 'em.

[Big John Denny, SASS #64775L]

PWB previously stated that the use of "high brass" shot shells are legal for use at SASS matches unless the box they are in states they ARE MAGNUM OR HIGH VELOCITY loads. Anyone can reload high brass shot shells to the standard SASS velocity. Just because a shot shell has high brass doesn't make it illegal.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

The jist of all this is that not all High Brass shotshells are magnum, or high powered. There are tons of shells available today that are simply target loads, many with velocities less than 1200 FPS. Most of these, NOT ALL, are of European origin, or European brands assembled in the USA.

 

So in todays market, the shell having a high brass, doesn't necessarily mean a thing. The important thing is that high brass doesn't lend it's self to easy extraction that we need with our SXS shotguns. Knowing this going in, we should actually stay away from high brass shells, as they are a hinderance to easy, fast, extraction from the SXS chambers.

 

For best results, we should stick with low brass shells, that are actually BRASS, not colored steel. THese include Winchester AA's, Remington STS and Nitro 27, and Federal Gold Medal hulls. All other available hulls in the USA have STEEL case heads. Some look like brass, but are not. They are steel with a brass colored wash on them to retard rusting. If in doubt, just test them with a magnet, and it will be very apparant.

 

So for best results, use only low Brass hulls, (Real brass, not steel), and if you can find them, at very low velocities. If you reload, you can hold velocities to approx. 1000 FPS, which will have very soft recoil.

 

RBK

[Big Jake1001]

I can Post till I'm Blue in the Face, but if nobody reads and UNDERSTANDS it, what's the use.

 

Jake

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

Since factory high-brass are usually magnum or high velocity, they would be outlawed for that reason. But not all factory high-brass are such. Last year I bought several boxes of Federal Target Loads that are marked "Low Recoil - Subsonic". They have 1 1/8 oz shot with 1 5/8 Dram Equivalent for a muzzle velocity of 900fps. They are ribbed with high brass. I thought that was very unusual for a light load. I have never seen these shells for sale since.

Abilene, I still shoot the sub sonic Federals.