More Holocaust News - camps and ghettos

[Subdeacon Joe]

A lot more than was thought.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

 

Sickening what man will do to man.

[Waimea]

I have always been horrified by the Holocaust.

When I was a kid and learned about it I couldn't believe it.

I went to the library and read everything I could find about it.

 

It is a black spot on humanity that, civilized or not, we can still cause that much pain to one another.

 

 

Waimea

 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Man has been doing this stuff to each other since the beginning of time. With modern technology, he has become much more efficient at it.

 

Sometimes I ponder about such things. (usually while consuming alcohol) What has the World missed out on by killing 20 million people during WWII? How many future doctors and scientists were killed before they could make their contributions? What about literature, politics, music? JFK had an older brother, Joe, who was killed in WWII. Would he have been a president? What of the children and grandchildren of those 20 million that were never born?

 

Lots to think about.

[Doc Cherokee, SASS#48332]

A truly dark time in the history of the world..And a horrifying testament to the extent of evil mankind is sometimes capable of..

 

Also a lesson to be learned AND REMEMBERED..What can happen when a charismatic and manipulative leader has the blind devotion of a large segment of a country's population..

[Iditarod Kid]

Our next door neighbor has the tattoo and memories to go with it. He used to give talks to school classes on what went on in the 30's and 40's. I wonder if kids can wrap their heads around it seventy years later.

See you down the trail......

[Guest jeweler jim]

Hope I don't regret posting this...

A couple three years ago while on my son's undergrad campus (since moved on to med school) I had occasion to talk and/or discuss what follows with a number of his contemporaries. Mind you these are what I call the liberal, overeducated under experienced kids who will be leading the nation and picking out our nursing homes. Wouldn't hurt a fly and most have probably never even fired a gun, etc. You know the type... So I asked a few of them (what with there being a few things that had happened recently with Muslim extremists) what would you do, say and/or think if they started rounding up Muslims and putting them in CAMPS.


Ready?


Without exception...


Not one of them...










Had a problem with the concept or idea...


So if'n you think it couldn't happen again or "we're better than that now..." Take it under advisement, they would have gone along with it. Scared the crap out of me! These individuals who would have thought that I was brought up by Neanderthals and wouldn't last ten minutes coming up in my circumstances would not object to this taking place. Perhaps they might tweak it some to make it more acceptable to their way of rationalizing it, but...









Now the scariest part... after thinking about it later on I couldn't honestly tell you what my personal reaction would be if it was to start. You like to believe you're better than that, but the old "first they came for the"... in the end who would stand up and fight against one particular group or another if your prejudice is strong enough and they're busting the group you're against. Hopefully you don't get tested.

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Jim, I wonder if they had any clue that we've already done that once.

[Calamity Kris]

My mom and her family were in Dachau. They were Catholics caught harboring Jews. I can't even get my brain around some of the things my mom told us. I pray we never go down a path like that again.

[Guest jeweler jim]

UB,

Seriously doubt they know much of anything that resembles history. Even my son for all his book smarts (no way I could have ever come close to getting as far as he has) has any knowledge or can answer what I think are the most basic questions about history and country. Guessing that it isn't taught or stressed in school any longer and with trying to keep up with what they're supposed to parrot back to their teachers there's no time for reading or self taught history for any of them.

It's like the comedy routines when they interview the college kids or people on the street for the late night shows. Dumb followed by dumber and then the segue into clueless.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

I have no doubt that we are capable of doing it all over again, with even more emphasis.

 

I have grave reservations about anyone stepping forward to stop it, once it has begun.

 

There is a old bromide that goes something like, "If you do not pay attention to history, you are doomed to repeat it."

 

They do not teach history in schools, to any degree.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I have no doubt that we are capable of doing it all over again, with even more emphasis.

 

I have grave reservations about anyone stepping forward to stop it, once it has begun.

 

There is a old bromide that goes something like, "If you do not pay attention to history, you are doomed to repeat it."

 

They do not teach history in schools, to any degree.

That was philosopher Georg Santayana. The quote is sightly different but that's the gist of it.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Not withstanding the concept of the above quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

We must also remember that this planet has had many examples of slavery, ethnic cleansing, outright state sanctioned murder etc.

Look only to the following countries for a brief survey; england/britain, russia, japan, rome, greece, egypt, china, parts of former yugoslavia not to mention germany.

This is not intended to be complete but brief list.

 

My comments are not intended to minimize/explain/justify etc the horrors of nazi actions.

[Three Foot Johnson]

A reminder of a time when the world went completely mad.

 

 

At first, the tattoos were done with a holder that held removable number blocks with needles outlining the numbers. The prisoner's number was inserted into the tool, the tool was held against the flesh and whacked with a mallet. It was then wrenched free and ink rubbed into the bleeding wound. It didn't work well, as the needles bent or broke off, muscles and tendons were smashed, needles got stuck in bone, the tool was hard to yank back out of the flesh, etc., so a more conventional tattoo gun was put into use.

[Subdeacon Joe]

What is really hard for me to wrap my head around is that so many people who were basically decent people set aside their humanity and were able to be guards and staff in the camps. Almost like they kissed their wives, said, "OK, dear, see you after work" then flipped a switch to turn off their morals and humanity and decency, did their shift, got home and turned on their decency again.

How can one compartmentalize like that?

[Harvey Mushman]

What is really hard for me to wrap my head around is that so many people who were basically decent people set aside their humanity and were able to be guards and staff in the camps. Almost like they kissed their wives, said, "OK, dear, see you after work" then flipped a switch to turn off their morals and humanity and decency, did their shift, got home and turned on their decency again.

How can one compartmentalize like that?

Agreed. Amazing what can be "rationalized" at a particular time.

 

The power of group think and a gradual introduction of the lunacy, beginning with some rational things (see Hitler in the early 30s), then gradually ratcheting up the ante has worked repeatedly in history.

 

We are going through it right now; started in the '60s (was defeated in the '20s) and has progressively become "the norm" that we are now immersed in daily in our schools and our media. I'll stop there.

 

Harvey

[Doc Cherokee, SASS#48332]

My father being a WWII veteran and POW, I was brought up with the horrors of WWII still pretty fresh in everyone's minds, as was so many of my generation..When I went back to school I was in my 40's, I was attending classes with kids young enough to have been my own..And I was both surprised and a bit upset at how little most of them knew about that era..It was like ancient history to them! I was also upset about the way it was presented-That is, a sort of questioning kind of format , like "Did we do the right thing by dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?" When I offered the opinion in class we were totally justified by seeking a quick end to the war and the Japanese were fanatical and would not have given up otherwise, and who also had no qualms whatsoever about the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor..A few of the other students thought I was some kind of lunatic! Growing up, I don't remember anyone "glorifying" what we did In WWII, the attitude was "We just did what had to be done"..

 

That was truly a great generation of Americans..They knew what tough times were all about and were themselves tough, determined, loyal to our country and not willing to take crap from anyone..It was a dark time in our history, but the way our country and its allies rose up and defeated this evil was a shining moment in human history as well IMHO..I worry about how this up and coming generation of spoiled, overfed kids who have never known what tough times are all about, and growing up with an attitude of entitlement, would react under similar circumstances..

[DocWard]

My daughter attends a small high school surrounded by cornfields (literally) in Ohio. They must be doing something right, though, because they just had a visit from a holocaust survivor by the name of Inge Aurbacher. My daughter was suitably impressed by her. Of course, by the sound of it, my daughter impresses her history teacher because of all the time she spent listening to her grandfather and I talking history.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

What is really hard for me to wrap my head around is that so many people who were basically decent people set aside their humanity and were able to be guards and staff in the camps. Almost like they kissed their wives, said, "OK, dear, see you after work" then flipped a switch to turn off their morals and humanity and decency, did their shift, got home and turned on their decency again.

 

How can one compartmentalize like that?

The guards and staff of these camps, were not your ordinary men, and women who also did guard, and staff duties. This may help explain the mindset, recruitment of these guards. As to staff, one needs to look further, into Doctors, and scientist, chemical engineers who used these times to do their experiments.

As to inhumanity, the times, era, a lot of the world shares a small portion of the blame also. One ploy used by the madman, was to fill a ship with Jewish, political, people. Not one nation accepted these refugees, not even the USA, when even there were just rumours, or rumours what was being done.

From the early times of man, inhumanity has taken place, from the times of the Crusades, to today, people are still being persecuted, and mass murdered. It didn't end with WW2.

Many maybe unaware, but German people who protested, both civilian and soldiers were also sent to camps. It was also fear, reason that the Gestapo was put into service. Their main duty was the suppression of the populace, citizens included.

Read the following, it might explain a little of the mindset of those that did do guard duties. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ss%20guards%20concentration%20camps%20&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSS-Totenkopfverb%25C3%25A4nde&ei=OV4zUZ-iM4fM9gS2-4GABA&usg=AFQjCNFh2VLuszNL4qnpcu1WAsv5mvcQAg&bvm=bv.43148975,d.eWU

[Doc Cherokee, SASS#48332]

Another thing that a lot of folks tend to forget is it wasn't only those of the Jewish faith that went to the concentration camps..They also took Gypsies, various other ethnic groups, writers and intellectuals, suspected homosexuals, and pretty much anyone with political or religious ideas that didn't fit in with the nazi's point of view..Something that always struck me as a bit odd was that although the nazis were into the whole pure aryan race concept, they seemed to hold the American Indians in fairly high regard..

[Utah Bob #35998]

Marshal Troop is correct. The camp staffs were not generally made up of your average Joe Sixpack, but selected just like the SA was packed with bullies, thugs and racist psychos.

But given the right dircumstances, even a normal decent person can fall prey to the collective thought process and become quite monstrous.

There were cases of people assigned to camps who eventually comitted suicide, went into dee depressions or tried to refuse the duty. They, of course didn't last long within the insanity of the Nazi regime.

 

The possibility that a population of normal can be conned into tacitly allowing such things to happen is the most frightening aspect. As Hacker pointed out, history is full of national atrocities, from ancient times to Turkey and the Armenians and Cambodia. In dark corners of the world, it continues today.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

As for why some of the "normal" people might do terrible things, think of this prospect, you run a factory. You are offered slave labor for your factory. Your choice really is do you take the "slaves" or fall behind in production quotas and become a slave? Or get shot as a traitor.

[Cypress Sun]

I will not take excuses for perpertrating the crimes against the "enemies of the state". It's bullshit. Try using the excuses that permeated the Nuremburg Trials. I was just following orders? Bullshit.

 

Delete this post if necessary.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I will not take excuses for perpertrating the crimes against the "enemies of the state". It's bullshit. Try using the excuses that permeated the Nuremburg Trials. I was just following orders? Bullshit.

 

Delete this post if necessary.

Think of yourself in NAZI Germany running a factory.

 

If you were posed with the dilema of my post #21 what you really do?

Would you refuse the slaves? Run away? Suicide? What?

It is an unwinnable situation!

[Utah Bob #35998]

Think of yourself in NAZI Germany running a factory.

 

If you were posed with the dilema of my post #21 what you really do?

Would you refuse the slaves? Run away? Suicide? What?

It is an unwinnable situation!

People are very good at

Rationalizing

Denial

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

People are very good at

Rationalizing

Denial

The world is very black and white isn't it!

Some 70 years later it is easy to sit in judgement of person faced with an unwinable situation and make them out only as evil people.

Isn't it!

Ferdinand Porsche was faced with exactly this situation.

Please note I am not talking about hitler, himmler, goebbels, goering, any SS. I am talking about businessmen.

[Iditarod Kid]

J Bar Binks' attached photo is a HECK of an image!!!!

See you down the trail......

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

This may explain a little, of what is being discussed. I would suggest reading it all. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=did%20all%20civilian%20germans%20accept%20hitler&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lewrockwell.com%2Fhornberger%2Fhornberger132.html&ei=_H00UYCFH5Ho9gTH44DQAg&usg=AFQjCNH_yqzXXf7cSBI5mCwi2zSlDUHuIg

[Noz]

My mom and her family were in Dachau. They were Catholics caught harboring Jews. I can't even get my brain around some of the things my mom told us. I pray we never go down a path like that again.

I had the privilege of going to Dachau in 1963. It had not been cleaned up and made into a shrine at that time. Some of the fences and buildings were still in place. We left with a sense of quiet desperation. How those families must have felt. A world wide tragedy that has never been treated as it should have been.

[Utah Bob #35998]

The world is very black and white isn't it!

Some 70 years later it is easy to sit in judgement of person faced with an unwinable situation and make them out only as evil people.

Isn't it!

Ferdinand Porsche was faced with exactly this situation.

Please note I am not talking about hitler, himmler, goebbels, goering, any SS. I am talking about businessmen.

If things were just black and white the world would be a simple place. Those grey areas really screw things up?

And governments are great at creating greyness.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Faced with the choice of giving up what you have accumulated in a lifetime, and going against the majority or even an visible minority is a hard choice sometimes. Those that have the most to lose are more likely to resist losing it. I do not recall ever seeing a riot on the 6 o'clock news, about folks with too much material stuff. Mostly, they are about folks that want more stuff, that is either missing in their lives, or they have not been able to acquire on their own.

 

Without strong leadership, I question what would happen when the government decided to call in ALL firearms in the hands of the civilian population. Without a strong leader, I suspect that a very large percentage, faced with long prison terms or even worse, would fold up the table and cave in.

 

Even in our own Revolution, there were those that clung to the King George version of government.

I suspect that those that did had a strong tie economically to the England and their possessions were

gifts of an English charter of some kind or another. As I understand the issue, most were unhappy with the conditions that existed but only a small number rallied around and did something about it.

 

If you look at April 19, 1775, and try to understand what those few souls faced, well, I am not certain that I would have been all that cocky. I hope that I would have stood with them. But the reality of

life is that it would take a hard look and perhaps a few sips of John Barleycorn.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

If things were just black and white the world would be a simple place. Those grey areas really screw things up?

And governments are great at creating greyness.

 

The greyness in these cases are created by the allied governments insistance that anyone who uses slave labor is a war criminal.

In these cases the greyness as you call it turns a grey person into a war criminal.

I disagree with that assessment. These industrialists were caught in a bad situation. Turned into a no win situation by the allied governments.

I personally draw the line at causing slavery vs using it under duress.

The industrialists were forced to us it or become a slave themselves vs being executed for treason.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Faced with the choice of giving up what you have accumulated in a lifetime, and going against the majority or even an visible minority is a hard choice sometimes. Those that have the most to lose are more likely to resist losing it. I do not recall ever seeing a riot on the 6 o'clock news, about folks with too much material stuff. Mostly, they are about folks that want more stuff, that is either missing in their lives, or they have not been able to acquire on their own.

 

Without strong leadership, I question what would happen when the government decided to call in ALL firearms in the hands of the civilian population. Without a strong leader, I suspect that a very large percentage, faced with long prison terms or even worse, would fold up the table and cave in.

 

Even in our own Revolution, there were those that clung to the King George version of government.

I suspect that those that did had a strong tie economically to the England and their possessions were

gifts of an English charter of some kind or another. As I understand the issue, most were unhappy with the conditions that existed but only a small number rallied around and did something about it.

 

If you look at April 19, 1775, and try to understand what those few souls faced, well, I am not certain that I would have been all that cocky. I hope that I would have stood with them. But the reality of

life is that it would take a hard look and perhaps a few sips of John Barleycorn.

Some good words here. We have already seen resistance, Ruby Ridge, Waco, and individuals who tried. Who would want to accept leadership? If all firearms were to be made illegal to own, the vast majority of law abiding citizens would turn them in. You won't win, and dying is not the way to fight another day. You'll be branded an outlaw, maybe even a traitor, if you resist the government, state, or local laws.

Its been over 200 years since people have resisted. Time, and technology will get you. And if you do happen to have a firearm, what can you do with it? You can't talk about it, display it, practice with it without worrying if someone may hear or see, especially if bounties, and rewards are given. You can't use it to defend yourself against criminals, because you will be one also. What about the knocks on the doors at 1AM, and a house and property search? At present only gun dealers have sales records, the government can probable call these up. Saying you sold it, or lost it, may not fly. Be surprised how many Germans ended in prison saying the same thing. Later a wife or son, found the shotgun and turned it in to get the owner released. But they weren't released, rather a stiff sentence given. ( ask me how I know this). Can it happen here? Well the Germans, Italians, British, and Australians didn't think so.

The future of Freedom depends on those we elect, and that being alert, and knowledgeable of those in office. Very important is also the agendas of the Presidents, these are the ones that nominate Supreme Court Justices, that interpret our Constitution, and make laws accordingly. Also those politicians that give seats, and position in government, the ones we don't get to elect, yet have power within. Remember, Hitler never won his first 2 elections, rather nominated to Chancellor by Hindenburg. After coming to power, elections only had one name on it. MT

[Subdeacon Joe]

Darned fine discussion going and good points being raised. Thank you, gentlemen.

[Utah Bob #35998]

....Remember, Hitler never won his first 2 elections, rather nominated to Chancellor by Hindenburg. After coming to power, elections only had one name on it. MT

A very importantfact that many folks don't know. They hear "The Germans elected Hitler", but the truth is he could not win a majority and was appointed by Hindenburg. The big reason he was appointed was that, although a recognized extremist, he was seen as controllable by the other parties in a coalition government.

That proved to be somewhat less than an accurate assessment. Within a short period of time, through plots, political manuevering, intmidation and violence, he and his cronies were holding all the cards.

And the world burned.

We can learn an awful lot by studying Germany betwen the wars.

But that's ancient history right? Nobody cares about that. It could never hapen here.

 

But we digress and wander toward politics..

To get back to the o.p., the immense capacity for evil that has existed in the minds of man is still there today.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

One of the key points to how hitler was appointed chancellor by hindenberg was that while hitler could get a majority, hindenberg could not form a functional government.

 

Of course a look at the USA government yields yet another dysfunctional government.