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Dropping a Loaded Pistol Part 2


Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217

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I remember this stage also. The shooter had some leeway as to staging guns. I thought this stage was fun and different. We all recognized, and accounted for, gun placement to rein position. IIRC, shooter was to "stage safely" all guns. Sometimes stuff happens when trying to go fast. Shooter didn't question the call and it should have stood. Respectfully, just my $0.02 BaddogN

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The shooter is responsible for his weapons at all times ... period ... end of story.

 

Well that is a nice clear cut opinion. No mercy regardless of the circumstances such as tripping over a warped board on the walkway or falling because of stepping through a rotted board. This should be a big relief for the clubs wondered about keeping range and props in good condition.

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MIss Allie

 

 

The gun didn't hit the ground..............this happened many years ago .......since the gun didn't hit the ground it was just a no call .......and that would be how I would call it from that one incident .............ever after that

Hi Jake,

 

The rule says nothing about the "ground." The reshoot was granted due to a "prop failure" there was no question that it's being dropped there was a problem if not for the "prop failure."

 

I think you've gone "a stray" on this one. ;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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MIss Allie

 

 

The gun didn't hit the ground..............this happened many years ago .......since the gun didn't hit the ground it was just a no call .......and that would be how I would call it from that one incident .............ever after that

 

Quoted from the Shooter's Handbook....

23. A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (from the loading table to the unloading table) results in the shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter.

No distinction is made where it drops...... on the ground or on the floor of a prop. It is a MDQ wherever it lands and whether or not is sweeps anyone.

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If this is prop failure, then is a vertically staged gun that subsequently falls prop failure, or failure of the shooter to properly position his gun? If it's prop failure what does that interpretation imply with respect to future stage writing? It seems to me the shooter had an obligation to stage his guns and pull the reins in a way that would not lead to a loaded gun hitting the ground.

 

 

The rules clearly state that the TO is the senior Range Officer. They also clearly state that the only person with standing to question a call is the shooter. In that situation the PM had no basis for getting involved. Had I been PM I would have been silent unless the shooter appealed the call. Then I would have upheld the call and referred the shooter to the MD.

 

I think it's pretty clear the TO made the right call and the PM did not.

 

MDQ.

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I can't comment on this particular incident as I didn't see it. However, I was very much witness once to a very near dropped loaded gun due to prop issues.

 

In this particular stage we were to start holding a very fuzzy blanket with a fringe. For one shooter, the blanket managed to "Grab hold" of the hammer of his holstered revolver and cocked it. Had he continued with the stage, it would have pulled a cocked revolver out of his holster. I watched it all happen. Shooter was stopped, allowed to clear the revolver, and granted a reshoot. In the interest of safety, this was exactly the right call. I later talked to the MD and got confirmation that we made the right decision at the time.

 

I bring that up because strange things can happen with props. The best call isn't always the one that is dictated by the rulebook.

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I had a MDQ overruled by the MD at a two day match a few years ago. One stage called for the shooter to be seated... on a rather short stool. Without thinking, I sat my 6'4" frame down on the stool with my knees up under my chin, turning both holsters nearly upside down and both pistols slid out and dropped a foot to the ground. MDQ, but the MD heard about it, came over, looked at the stool and said, "Why are we using this short little stool instead of a folding chair or something?" He ruled it a prop failure and I shot the rest of the match. I don't know that it was a correct or incorrect call, just relating what happened.

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MDQ and hang the stage writer. ;)

 

 

^^^^^^some of these stage writings are getting out-of-hand^^^^^we must be really bored to go to such extremes, seems to me the stage wasn't safe to begin with........oh, better add LOL so no one will believe I'm serious about the hanging part.......

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If this is prop failure, then is a vertically staged gun that subsequently falls prop failure, or failure of the shooter to properly position his gun? If it's prop failure what does that interpretation imply with respect to future stage writing? It seems to me the shooter had an obligation to stage his guns and pull the reins in a way that would not lead to a loaded gun hitting the ground.

 

 

 

 

It could be one or the other.

 

"Stages should never be designed that have the potential to penalize a shooter for anything that is a perfectly safe situation. R.O. II Manual page 5."

 

Most of us realize that when standing a long gun vertically in a corner it has to be A) leaned at a angle, B) the butt needs to rest on a non-slick surface and C) the corner and floor need to be free of vibrations. In some clubs storefronts and wood walkways are not either constructed very strong (not uncommon with limited budgets some clubs have) and/or not kept in good condition such as boards on the walkway coming loose and not being securely nailed back down. If the merely walking on the boardwalk can create enough vibration for the gun to slip and fall then you are going to potentially have a lot of MDQ's.

 

A foreseeable problem like this can be avoided by adding a wood peg limiting the space for the barrel to fit in and a small piece of carpet or astrotruf to the boardwalk for the butt of the long gun to sit on.

 

In regards to the reins the problem was foreseeable and easily correctable by the Match Officials.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Several things come to mind as far as stage design; A set of holsters strapped around your waist can prevent this kind of thing. What your holsters are over your front pockets like some kinda tool and you can't sit with your holsters? Cowboy up! Nothing prevents a TO/RO from suggesting a way to keep the reins from being in the box and on top of the guns. I have shot a stage like this a bunch of times and you simply pull and set the targets, stand, draw, shoot, complete the stage. Sometimes golf is simple...

 

Unfortunately in this case it's a MDQ

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Well, the argument that others had shot the stage without trouble doesn't hold water......It doesn't make the stage safe or well designed just because others had shot it without knocking their guns off.

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I had a MDQ overruled by the MD at a two day match a few years ago. One stage called for the shooter to be seated... on a rather short stool. Without thinking, I sat my 6'4" frame down on the stool with my knees up under my chin, turning both holsters nearly upside down and both pistols slid out and dropped a foot to the ground. MDQ, but the MD heard about it, came over, looked at the stool and said, "Why are we using this short little stool instead of a folding chair or something?" He ruled it a prop failure and I shot the rest of the match. I don't know that it was a correct or incorrect call, just relating what happened.

 

MDQ pard....you should have been conscience of your pistols possibly falling out and mentioned something right there before engaging the stage.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Well, the argument that others had shot the stage without trouble doesn't hold water......It doesn't make the stage safe or well designed just because others had shot it without knocking their guns off.

Hi Billy,

 

It holds water for me. It is one factor of possibly many to consider when determining whether a prop or the shooter is at fault when dropping a gun. Now, if a prop is poorly maintained (loose boards causing a gun to fall) or slippery due to rain causing the shooter to fall, those are factors to consider too and tend to lead to a call in the shooter's favor.

 

I'm not trying to stretch things to ridiculous limits. However, would you say that whenever a gun falls, the stage is unsafe and not well designed? I know a shooter who knocked his loaded rifle off a table when no one else did. Another shooter's loaded revolver hit a fence as he was drawing it and went "barrel over grip" down range. These things didn't happen to anyone else. Is that bad design?

 

I think not. Shooter 1 should have given his gun a wider berth. Shooter 2 should have stepped back from the fence. Like I wrote earlier, if we take this "prop failure" concept too far, all we will be able to do is "stand and deliver." :unsure:

 

I am reminded of my lawn mower what turns off as soon as ya let go of the handle... :(

Uh Oh! Here goes again. I don't get it. Potential meaning, brain and personal responsibility disengage when the timer beeps? :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Uh Oh! Here goes again. I don't get it. Potential meaning, brain and personal responsibility disengage when the timer beeps? :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Haha!! I think you get it ;)

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the 'ground' in this case was the stage floor. I"ll agree to that,and reluctantly agree that it is a MDQ.

 

I wll not agree that just because everyone else made it thru the stage that it is a safe design to shoot.It's an MDQ trap waiting to happen

 

Years ago,a TOP shooter at our Regional flubbed his draw and the gun fell onto a hay bale prop.Some wanted to call it a no-call since it didn't hit the ground.The shooter knew better and took his MDQ..in fact insisited on it. now THAT is a top shooter in my book.,.

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Well, the argument that others had shot the stage without trouble doesn't hold water......It doesn't make the stage safe or well designed just because others had shot it without knocking their guns off.

I think it does. One half of one percent of shooters had a problem.

 

Since it's spring training time, how about a baseball analogy? Determination of base hit vs error goes something like this: If an average defensive player putting forth average effort would not be able to make the play, it's a hit. If an average defensive player putting forth average effort should be able to make the play, but doesn't, it's an error.

 

199 people made the play, and 1 didn't. He gets an error.

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I don't buy it, you design a stage so you pull anything over your guns and you are asking for trouble, I have walked away from unsafe stages and will do so in the future, you go ahead and shoot whatever you think is right.........I'll go home safe. Folks in this sport are fond of straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

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MDQ pard....you should have been conscience of your pistols possibly falling out and mentioned something right there before engaging the stage.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Yep. It sure hasn't happened since!

The TRO didn't even see it happen, he leaned over, said, "Shooter ready?", I didn't say anything, so he hit the buzzer and... I just sat there for a couple seconds. I turned and looked up at him, and said, "I'm done". He had a confused look on his face, so I pointed down with each hand at the guns and he got an even more confused look on his face, like he was thinking, "Whose guns are those and why are they there??" He finally put two and two together and realized what happened. I didn't even question the MDQ, but I didn't protest the MD's decision when he came over and looked at the stage either.

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I've been reading this and just wondering.......

 

Can I drop a gun not in my posession?

 

Was the gun dropped, or knocked off?

 

If a gun is staged, and the prop is bumped by the TK (or anyone else), and falls, is it dropped (mdq)?

 

If the reins knocked the gun off, that sounds like a prop problem.

 

I may be new here, but not to the sport. (or shooting sports in general)

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

I don't buy it, you design a stage so you pull anything over your guns and you are asking for trouble, I have walked away from unsafe stages and will do so in the future, you go ahead and shoot whatever you think is right.........I'll go home safe. Folks in this sport are fond of straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Take the slack out of the reins/rope leave the tail ends in front of the wagon (in front of your guns) and get ready for the beep. Heck even a camel swallowing gnat strainer knows that? I can't imagine why anyone would drag anything across their guns

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the 'ground' in this case was the stage floor. I"ll agree to that,and reluctantly agree that it is a MDQ.

 

I wll not agree that just because everyone else made it thru the stage that it is a safe design to shoot.It's an MDQ trap waiting to happen

 

 

IMHO this is exactly what is meant by the statement;

 

Stages should never be designed that have the potential to penalize a shooter for anything that is a perfectly safe situation. R.O. II Manual page 5.

 

We don' t have any R.O.II's to explain what this rule means???

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The section you're referring to is titled Unsafe Stage Design Elements and there are quite a few examples provided there. But the Handbook isn't supposed to outline every possible stage design, rather it provides guidelines with examples. For instance immediately after the section you quoted are the following examples:

 

"moving with an empty or uncocked firearm, drawing or holstering on the move, single versus double loading a shotgun, and loading a rifle round into the magazine versus the chamber are just a few that have been identified as unnecessary penalty traps."

 

It also mentions: "Moving up range (back toward the posse members) to an anticipated or next shooting position, especially while carrying loaded firearms, Negotiating complicated or arduous stage fronts and doorway thresholds that create trip hazards, resulting in possible loss of muzzle control, Engaging targets downrange while firearms are staged for use in the line of fire between the target and the shooter."

 

I guess if you classify a set of reins being adjacent to staged guns as complicated then you would find this objectionable. I would have to see where the guns were staged. Was there adequate space for a shooter to stage the guns and work the reins without them interfering with each other? If there was then as a Posse Marshall on a walk through I might point out the need to caution shooters about working the reins, but it wouldn't be what I consider a serious safety hazard. If the space were so narrow that the reins had to be placed on top, or immediately adjacent to the guns I would have an issue with that.

 

You can't eliminate all risk elements from stage design. As soon as you write a stage that calls for movement you've increased the probability that someone will slip and fall. It isn't a black and white situation, there are shades of grey between a stand and deliver stage and one that is clearly dangerous and shouldn't be run.

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BTW,

 

The shooter did not know that the PM went to see about the call. While the PM was gone, the shooter was kicking himself. He said he didn't even look at his pistols when pulling the reins as he was focusing on the next gun to be used, which was the SG.

 

Another thought, we shouldn't need the shooter to explain himself before making a call. It was either unsafe or a prop failure.

 

Regards,

 

AM

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Take the slack out of the reins/rope leave the tail ends in front of the wagon (in front of your guns) and get ready for the beep. Heck even a camel swallowing gnat strainer knows that? I can't imagine why anyone would drag anything across their guns

I wasn't there, didn't see the stage, so I don't know if the set-up was safe or not. I'm just saying that you have to write stages to the ability of the most novice shooter (I don't know who the shooter was in this case, may have been an old timer, just making a point). A new shooter has enough to worry about just getting to the line and shooting a normal stage and doesn't need an extra duty to perform to get through the stage. And the rules need to be applied and enforced equally to all shooters (Not saying they weren't here). I saw an experienced shooter a while back shoot four rounds into the air by closing their shotgun with their fingers on the trigger, and after blowing both barrels off twice, figured it out and completed the stage. The shooter didn't hit anyone, didn't hit the stage, but it sure as heck wasn't safe. There wasn't a word said to the shooter! I didn't know a shotgun would fire that way and I have been shooting weekly for more than forty years.

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The section you're referring to is titled Unsafe Stage Design Elements and there are quite a few examples provided there. But the Handbook isn't supposed to outline every possible stage design, rather it provides guidelines with examples. For instance immediately after the section you quoted are the following examples:

 

"moving with an empty or uncocked firearm, drawing or holstering on the move, single versus double loading a shotgun, and loading a rifle round into the magazine versus the chamber are just a few that have been identified as unnecessary penalty traps."

 

It also mentions: "Moving up range (back toward the posse members) to an anticipated or next shooting position, especially while carrying loaded firearms, Negotiating complicated or arduous stage fronts and doorway thresholds that create trip hazards, resulting in possible loss of muzzle control, Engaging targets downrange while firearms are staged for use in the line of fire between the target and the shooter."

 

I guess if you classify a set of reins being adjacent to staged guns as complicated then you would find this objectionable. I would have to see where the guns were staged. Was there adequate space for a shooter to stage the guns and work the reins without them interfering with each other? If there was then as a Posse Marshall on a walk through I might point out the need to caution shooters about working the reins, but it wouldn't be what I consider a serious safety hazard. If the space were so narrow that the reins had to be placed on top, or immediately adjacent to the guns I would have an issue with that.

 

You can't eliminate all risk elements from stage design. As soon as you write a stage that calls for movement you've increased the probability that someone will slip and fall. It isn't a black and white situation, there are shades of grey between a stand and deliver stage and one that is clearly dangerous and shouldn't be run.

 

 

Are you sharing your opinion as a R.O.II?

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I'm not sure about writing every stage to the ability of the most novice shooter. I think participants should have some basic level of proficiency before they show up for a match. A match isn't the place to learn how to shoot and the stages could be pretty boring if every one of them is written to be suitable for 'the most novice shooter'.

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Are you sharing your opinion as a R.O.II?

I'm not sure what you mean? I'm sharing my opinion based on my experience as a shooter and based on my understanding of the rules, which includes what I learned in order to pass the ROII course. I don't think that means I have some official capacity that allows me to interpret rules and have you follow my lead based on that. That's up to folks like PWB and Snakebite. The only time I offer 'official rulings' is when I'm functioning as a PM or TO. Based on what I've heard on this thread if I had been the TO I would have issued a MDQ. If I had been the PM I would have cautioned the posse during the stage reading to be careful with the reins.

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Somehow this poem bests salutes the 199 posse members who shot this stage;

 

The Charge Of The Light Brigade
by Alfred, Lord Tennyson with editing

 

Half a league
half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred: 199
'Forward, the Light Brigade Posse!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred. 199

'Forward, the Light Brigade Posse!'
Was there a man dismay'd ?
Not tho' the soldier knew

Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred. 199


Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd & thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred. 199
Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air
Sabring the gunners there,

Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack & Russian

Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,
Shatter'd & sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred. 199

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse & hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred. 199


When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge stage they made!
Honour the Light Brigade Posse,
Noble six hundred 199!

 

 


 


 




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We've already taken both the rockin' horse and the static horse out of scenarios (mounting and dismounting) because that's too strenuous, told folks that walking and chewing gum while carrying a holstered, unloaded gun is unsafe, getting up out of a chair is hazardous, and is clearly unsafe when wearing a gunbelt, can't shoot the rifle last, (it doesn't make enough noise), negotiating steps or stairs is clearly unsafe as most shooters are too frail and unsteady to do that...

 

Guess we should all just have a "Hoveround™ " with holsters and scabbards for both long guns mounted to it, but deny any movement at all!

 

We all seem to decry the lack of younger folks in this game... and then biotch to high heaven when asked to do ANYTHING requiring a modicum of coordination! I was 35 when I started playing this game, and everyone was within 10 to 15 years of my age... a few older, wiser folks than that... but I never heard anywhere near the amount of complaints from even folks in their '70s about the athletic nature of some stages. In fact, many of those stages were designed by folks that age!

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We've already taken both the rockin' horse and the static horse out of scenarios (mounting and dismounting) because that's too strenuous, told folks that walking and chewing gum while carrying a holstered, unloaded gun is unsafe, getting up out of a chair is hazardous, and is clearly unsafe when wearing a gunbelt, can't shoot the rifle last, (it doesn't make enough noise), negotiating steps or stairs is clearly unsafe as most shooters are too frail and unsteady to do that...

 

Guess we should all just have a "Hoveround " with holsters and scabbards for both long guns mounted to it, but deny any movement at all!

 

We all seem to decry the lack of younger folks in this game... and then biotch to high heaven when asked to do ANYTHING requiring a modicum of coordination! I was 35 when I started playing this game, and everyone was within 10 to 15 years of my age... a few older, wiser folks than that... but I never heard anywhere near the amount of complaints from even folks in their '70s about the athletic nature of some stages. In fact, many of those stages were designed by folks that age!

The rocking horse was my favorite to this day..

 

Only did it once in Norco...'97? or thereabouts. The other cool stage was shootin' from the gallows downward.

 

Nothing unsafe about either of those that I can recall.

 

GG

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Somehow this poem bests salutes the 199 posse members who shot this stage;

 

The Charge Of The Light Brigade

by Alfred, Lord Tennyson with editing

 

Half a league

half a league,

Half a league onward,

All in the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred: 199

'Forward, the Light Brigade Posse!

Charge for the guns' he said:

Into the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred. 199

 

'Forward, the Light Brigade Posse!'

Was there a man dismay'd ?

Not tho' the soldier knew

 

Some one had blunder'd:

Theirs not to make reply,

Theirs not to reason why,

Theirs but to do & die,

Into the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred. 199

 

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon in front of them

Volley'd & thunder'd;

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

 

Into the mouth of Hell

Rode the six hundred. 199

Flash'd all their sabres bare,

Flash'd as they turn'd in air

Sabring the gunners there,

 

Charging an army while

All the world wonder'd:

Plunged in the battery-smoke

Right thro' the line they broke;

Cossack & Russian

 

Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,

Shatter'd & sunder'd.

Then they rode back, but not

Not the six hundred. 199

 

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon behind them

Volley'd and thunder'd;

 

Storm'd at with shot and shell,

While horse & hero fell,

They that had fought so well

Came thro' the jaws of Death,

Back from the mouth of Hell,

All that was left of them,

Left of six hundred. 199

 

 

When can their glory fade?

O the wild charge they made!

All the world wonder'd.

Honour the charge stage they made!

Honour the Light Brigade Posse,

Noble six hundred 199!

 

I guess I'm to blame for this. I mean, if you let in baseball, can Tennyson be far behind? Mea culpa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Prop Failure; wall of saloon is blown over carrying with it staged Rifle (loaded ,nothing in chamber) and SXS shotgun ,,,, Shooter is able to grab of the window sill his two staged loaded pistols and keep them safley pointed downrange .... Both long guns come to rest pointed downrange .....

 

That is a prop failure the whole stage blew down ,,,,,,,, but no-one was in danger due the quick thinking of the shooter standing in the start posession Hands on hat ....

Other than another mark on the on the shotgun stock and a little bluing removed on the rifle barrel little harm was done .... AND A HALF HOUR WORK RESTANDING THE STAGE A BRACING IT PROPERLEY ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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