Dropping a Loaded Pistol Part 2

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm starting a new thread on this one as a MDQ was not given. I want to know what you think.

 

IIUC, one shooter out of about 200 had this happen and someone, I do not know who, overruled the MDQ.

 

Shooter is sitting in a wagon with reins in hand and revolvers are staged on the front of the wagon. Shooter drops reins and shoots some targets including a SG KD. Between two guns, shooter is to pull reins to reset the KDs. Shoot the KD again, then another gun. A loaded pistol falls on the floor of the wagon when the shooter pulls the reins.

 

Everyone involved (TO and spotters) called a MDQ. PM leaves the scene to verify the call. A relatively new shooter comments to me something to the effect, why would he have to verify the call? It was a MDQ to drop a loaded pistol and no one else had that problem. I explained to her that I've seen calls overruled that I was sure were valid. She indicated that was not right.

 

The PM came back and told the shooter he got a reshoot due to a prop failure. The new shooter indicated that she thought it was wrong.

 

The shooter was a good sport about the MDQ and did not question it at all. I have no fault with the behavior he exhibited.

 

IMO some folks bend over too far to ensure a shooter doesn't have negative feelings about a match and that may have led the decision. When I and others were navigating the stage, we took care to ensure that the reins did not cause a problem with our revolvers. I do not believe that this shooter would have had any negative feelings. He knew he caused the situation because he seemed shocked to get a reshoot.

 

Thanks for any contributions to this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Kulshan 20262]

MDQ and hang the stage writer.

[Flying W Ramrod]

The PM cannot override the timer operator. Once the PM gives up the timer, he is just a shooter. The holder of the Timer is GOD and can only be overriden by the Match Director.

If I was the TO in this case, I would never run the timer again the PM could hang himself.

If the decision came from the MD, I would ask the MD what the heck they were thinking and what part of personal responsiblity is prop failure and not shoot at that club again as long as that person were MD.

Harsh, damn right but a dropped loaded gun is nothing to quibble about.

 

[Krazy Kajun]

So I did a little looking in the shooters handbook....quoted below....

 

23. A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (from the loading table to the unloading table) results in the shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter.

 

Dropped loaded gun...no distinction is made where it drops on the ground or on the floor of a prop so I'd say the prop failure call is in error and would say that it is a MDQ any way you can look at it.

 

Kajun

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I thought only the shooter could question the call (REF: shooters handbook, page 18).

 

Can ANYONE petition the MD to change a call such as this on the shooter?

 

 

..........Widder

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

While I agree it is a MDQ it sounds like a TERRIBLE stage setup. There is no reason to not have mounted holsters, boxes, etc. in which to place the revolvers so they won't be knocked off the staging area. As to the PM leaving to go ask about the call, that is perfectly acceptable. In CAS there is a clearly defined process calls go through. The TO, the PM, then to the Range Master. (not the MD). Then if a formal appeal a committee of 3 preferably TG's hear the appeal. The MD conducts the appeal but does NOT vote.

[Curley Fryes]

Sounds very similar to what happened to me. There was a stage where we had to shoot through a window. There was a 5 inch window sill on the inside of the window where we were to rest our hands at the beginning of the stage. Upon hearing the beep, I lifted my hands, drew my revolver. The barrel of the revolver hit the window sill and the revolver fell and rested on the window sill. My day ended there.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

While I agree it is a MDQ it sounds like a TERRIBLE stage setup. There is no reason to not have mounted holsters, boxes, etc. in which to place the revolvers so they won't be knocked off the staging area. As to the PM leaving to go ask about the call, that is perfectly acceptable. In CAS there is a clearly defined process calls go through. The TO, the PM, then to the Range Master. (not the MD). Then if a formal appeal a committee of 3 preferably TG's hear the appeal. The MD conducts the appeal but does NOT vote.

 

Happy Jack, according to the Shooters handbook, page 18, the titles of Range Master and Match Director seem to be synonomous(sp). And, that RM/MD does have the final say-so.

 

Territorial Govs. 'MAY' be empanalled to aid the RM/MD in their decision.

 

..........Widder

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Widder, while I am familiar with the reference you sight, unfortunately CAS has decided they need multiple handbooks to clarify their rules.

The more complete appeals process is spelled out in ROII on page 12 and the Match Directors Match Administration Guide on page 9. Since the shooter didn't challenge the call, there is no reason to enter the appeal process, but it needs to be done correctly.

 

I don't really care how a local match decides to handle calls that come into question, and certainly at small matches all the necessary personnel aren't available to handle a "formal appeal", but I wish there was more consistency.

[Quick Draw Granpaw #48525]

Enough of the political rhetoric....IF YOU DROP A LOADED GUN IT'S A MATCH DQ! Why talk

about it. I can't think of a good excuse for dropping a loaded gun that would ALLOW SOMEONE TO FINISH THE MATCH! A life could be in the balance so why go any further? The life might be mine or

even yours, so think about it and live with it! It's a match DQ.

Just my thoughts on the subject!

Happy trails

Quick Draw Grandpa

[Boon Doggle]

Yes, the stage/scenario was an accident just waiting to happen.

However...

"Circumstances" be damned. You screwed up and dropped a loaded gun. Now pack 'em up, take the rest of the day off, and cowboy up.

 

But then I repeat myself.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Happy Jack,

 

thanks for clearing that up for me. I need to read more. (p.s.- I had a gut feeling that there would be more info in the other handbooks and that someone would post it).

 

You are correct in that these things do need to be handled with more consistency.

 

 

..........Widder

[Henry T Harrison]

The question to me is was the gun properly staged? If it was and the gun fell do to prop failure such as the wagon moving when the rains were pulled then it is a reshoot.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

The question to me is was the gun properly staged? If it was and the gun fell do to prop failure such as the wagon moving when the rains were pulled then it is a reshoot.

Hi Henry,

 

All of the shooters selected where to put their revolvers on a flat area. The wagon did not move. It wasn't a real movable wagon. Just a stationary prop that had wheels attached to the sides.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

No offence intended to anyone. However, I've noticed a lot of comments over the years about "bad stage writing" or "an accident waiting to happen." When only one person out of many has a problem with something, I don't understand how we can blame the stage writer. In other situations with multiple safeties or Ps associated with a particular activity, I agree that could be the case.

 

I fear that if we take that attitude rather than allowing the shooter to decide how to safely navigate a stage, or suffer the consequences if he/she pushes the envelope too far, we will end up with "stand and deliver" stages. We wouldn't want to risk someone slipping, falling, and dropping a gun when moving from one shooting position to another could be a justification for it. Not that I agree, I'm just trying to say that if we take all the variety and novelty away, our game will loose much of what makes it so much fun.

 

This situation troubled me because of the new shooter's take on it, how it removed responsibility from the shooter for their own actions, and created a situation where a different call could be reached with a different posse.

 

Food for thought, maybe?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

Allie Mo! I shot that stage just before that happened, and I have shot that prop at another club too.It looks cool, it's different pulling on the reins to reset the shotgun targets, and I was real carefully about gun placement knowing the pulling of reins could cause issues.

I thought it was a MDQ and knowing the people involved in the call was surprised it was overruled.

NOT a prop to haphazardly lay guns around, and I don't really like shooting it.

[johny two horse]

I wasn't there, I didn't see it happen and from reading this thread I still don't know what happened. Did the reins knock the pistol over or did the shooter hit it with a knee? The devil is in the details. Even if 199 shooters made it through, that doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with the setup. Think of it this way. One model of car has total brake failure only once out of every 200 stops, is that a safe car. I'm not saying the set up for the pistols was unsafe, I am saying that I don't have near enough info to make any kind of judgment call. Can anyone fill in the blanks?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Johnny,

 

The shooter pulled the reins to reset the target and pulled his revolver off the platform to the floor of the "wagon."

 

When I shot the stage, I set my pistols to one side and pulled the reins toward the other side to avoid them.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Griff]

Allie has the right of it. A MDQ, pure and simple.

However, I do believe that only the shooter or the RO/TO has the option to question the call. I know that I've certainly questioned calls as a shooter, and I've even questioned my own calls as a TO/RM/RO. I'm not aware of any right that a "Posse Marshal" has of questioning a call unless he was also the TO/RO at the time. If the TO/RO goes off, or asks the PM to do so, to consults the RM, and comes back with the answer... so be it. However, if the call is then appealed, (only allowed by the shooter involved), to the MD, what I read is that the "... Match Director shall appoint a jury... of at least three experienced people knowledgeable of the rules and preferably persons not aware of any details... At state level match and higher, three Territorial Governors, designated Chief ROs, OR RO Instructors should be used as the jury..." I don't necessarily read that TGs seem to be preferred... and if not available, equally acceptable options are available.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

I wasn't there, I didn't see it happen and from reading this thread I still don't know what happened. Did the reins knock the pistol over or did the shooter hit it with a knee? The devil is in the details. Even if 199 shooters made it through, that doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with the setup. Think of it this way. One model of car has total brake failure only once out of every 200 stops, is that a safe car. I'm not saying the set up for the pistols was unsafe, I am saying that I don't have near enough info to make any kind of judgment call. Can anyone fill in the blanks?

Your brake analogy compares mechanical failure to carelessness. Not the same thing. 199 people were careful, and 1 was careless.

 

Also, by this logic, if 1 shooter out of 200 earns a procedural, the stage must be a P trap.

[Boon Doggle]

IMHO having shooter reset the KD is a problem. It forces him to take his concentration away from his guns (Think Safety) and focuses his attention to the reseting of the target.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

MDQ.......Next shooter

LG

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

IMHO having shooter reset the KD is a problem. It forces him to take his concentration away from his guns (Think Safety) and focuses his attention to the reseting of the target.

Hee hee, so does walking (moving from position to position, especially in a split SG stage) and chewing gum.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

 

No offence intended to anyone. However, I've noticed a lot of comments over the years about "bad stage writing" or "an accident waiting to happen." When only one person out of many has a problem with something, I don't understand how we can blame the stage writer. In other situations with multiple safeties or Ps associated with a particular activity, I agree that could be the case... I fear that if we take that attitude rather than allowing the shooter to decide how to safely navigate a stage, or suffer the consequences if he/she pushes the envelope too far, we will end up with "stand and deliver" stages.

 

We can agree on this. I don't like homogenization of SASS. I wouldn't want to shoot a stage like this very often, but it would be fun once in a while. It sounds like careless gun placement, not prop failure. MDQ. Like some others, I don't understand overturning the call. It didn't even follow the simple appeals process to boot.

[Taquila Tab, Sass #25048]

I remember one stage several years ago where the rifle was staged vertical at the right window, the shooter was to start with pistols from the doorway in the middle and the shotgun was shot out of the left window. Other than the vertical staging, this is a fairly common set-up for a prop. Anyway, the shooter started in the middle with the pistols then went about 10 feet to the right window. On the way there the shotgun fell over due to the vibrations from the floor decking. Clearly this type of thing was a prop failure and not a dropped gun. The gun had been standing there since its initial staging and the shooter wasn't within 20 feet of the gun when it fell.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I thought only the shooter could question the call (REF: shooters handbook, page 18).

 

Can ANYONE petition the MD to change a call such as this on the shooter?

 

 

..........Widder

Right. A call is made by the TO and ONLY the shooter may ask for relief from the MD.Nobody else gets a vote. Dammit man, when this gets explained in court one day, the "feelings police" are gonna be screwed

[Henry T Harrison]

Hi Henry,

 

All of the shooters selected where to put their revolvers on a flat area. The wagon did not move. It wasn't a real movable wagon. Just a stationary prop that had wheels attached to the sides.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

MDQ then

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

MDQ.......Next shooter

LG

Yup...be careful and conscience of what your doing folks

 

GG

[Seldom Seen #16162]

.

 

Stages should never be designed that have the potential to penalize a shooter for anything that is a perfectly safe situation. R.O. II Manual page 5.

 

As far as the call I think prop failure was the correct call.

 

The shooter properly staged his guns in the designated area.

 

The reins which are part of the props were directly positioned so they could and did come in contact with the staged firearms.

 

While the shooter was operating the props the reins contacted the guns resulting in them being knocked off from where they were staged.

 

The stage was not designed to avoid having a safe situation, i.e. pulling on the reins to reset the targets, create the potential for penalty, i.e. knocking the guns from where they were staged, by allowing the reins to come in contact with the guns when the reins were operated by the shooter.

 

This was a foreseeable easily avoidable situation by either moving the area where the guns are staged or by redesigning the prop on the wagon to avoid coming in contact with the guns prior to the match.

 

As far as the rule for appeal of MDQ I think most will agree that much of monthly matches are learning about the rules, procedures and practicing to avoid penalties. If rulings are blindly accepted how will everyone involved learn what the correct rules are in a given situation?

[johny two horse]

So these guns were on a shelf and the reins ran across the guns or at least next to the guns? I am not arguing a MDQ is right or wrong, I'm just wondering if this is one of those things someone should have seen coming. If any of you were to set up this same stage would you do it exactly this way again? Or is there room for improvement?

[Cat Brules]

While I agree it is a MDQ it sounds like a TERRIBLE stage setup. There is no reason to not have mounted holsters, boxes, etc. in which to place the revolvers so they won't be knocked off the staging area. As to the PM leaving to go ask about the call, that is perfectly acceptable. In CAS there is a clearly defined process calls go through. The TO, the PM, then to the Range Master. (not the MD). Then if a formal appeal a committee of 3 preferably TG's hear the appeal. The MD conducts the appeal but does NOT vote.

Happy Jack,

 

Yeah, BUT ....... not relevant.

 

The shooter is responsible for his weapons at all times ... period ... end of story.

 

And, I see no reason for the posse marshal to go plead the shooter's case (a case, which the shooter did not make, by the way) to the match director.

 

PLUS, the match director, in my opinion, had no business making ANY call like that, which I do not believe he was entitled to make, especially not having been there himself, and more so if the call made by the timer operator followed general SASS guidelines, which it did in this case. The match director is an administrator at that point; he has NO ... zero, God-like qualities. The field supervisor, the timer operator who witnessed the incident, should be making those calls, which he did .. correctly. The match director had no boots-on-the-ground knowledge:

1. the shooter, saw it happen

2. the timer operator, saw it happen

3. the posse marshal, may or may not have seen it happen.

4. the match director, sure as hell, did not see it happen and should have told the posse marshal to get back out there and do his job, IF the call made in the field followed SASS rules. If the posse marshal didn't witness the incident, his only recourse is to listen to the witnesses and, if timer operator's call follows SASS rules, agree with the timer operator's call. Dropped Gun = Match DQ. The timer operator made the correct call, which should have not been questioned in this case.

 

The guns are the shooter's responsibility and if he lost control of them, it's his responsibility. In this case, the shooter acknowledged that.

[Cat Brules]

So these guns were on a shelf and the reins ran across the guns or at least next to the guns? I am not arguing a MDQ is right or wrong, I'm just wondering if this is one of those things someone should have seen coming. If any of you were to set up this same stage would you do it exactly this way again? Or is there room for improvement?

 

Absolutely right, in my opinion. If the posse marshals, as a group, do a walk-through of the stages, prior to the posses heading out to shoot, this situation probably should have been caught. Heck, whoever approved the stage as written may have had a shot at correcting the issue earlier on, too, If the posse marshals are not doing a pre-shoot walk-through, they should start doing that, in my opinion.

 

BUT, a dropped loaded gun is a dropped loaded gun ... shooter's responsibility ... Match DQ.

[crooked jake,4371]

MIss Allie

 

 

The gun didn't hit the ground..............this happened many years ago .......since the gun didn't hit the ground it was just a no call .......and that would be how I would call it from that one incident .............ever after that

[Griff]

MIss Allie

 

 

The gun didn't hit the ground..............this happened many years ago .......since the gun didn't hit the ground it was just a no call .......and that would be how I would call it from that one incident .............ever after that

Unless the gun sweeps someone. Just like when the gun falls and is caught before it can fall to a final resting place. And for purposes of this stage, I would argue that the floor of the wagon is the "ground".

[Boon Doggle]

Hee hee, so does walking (moving from position to position, especially in a split SG stage) and chewing gum.

 

Agreed. However, none of the above pose the safety issue that having target reset ropes, reins, whatever, running across the same table where guns are staged.

 

No matter, it is still the shooters responsibility to be safe in staging his/her guns.