stepnmud#33546 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I really enjoy shooting blackpowder loads with 200 gr. big lube bullets and have had this rifle for past 10 years. Couple years ago I had it rechambered to 44 Special/Russian cause that's what I wanted to do. :rolleyes:/> Anyhow my trouble is the 44 rounds will chamber and fire fine as normal with smokeless loads, but when using blackpowders Goex,Kik,Scheutzen,even some Triple 7 for hotter loads, the fired rounds do not extract easily. Thought the issuse might be the 200 gr.,44 Special/Russian loads were not hot enough to expand the case enough and causing too much fouling in the chamber. Tried heavier 240 gr. bullets, but still the same hard extraction with blackpowder rounds. The Rifle is great fun to shoot with smokeless loads, but almost embarrassing to shoot after following blackpower pistols or shotgun loads on a stage. Tried 431",.430",429",.427"diameters.Possibly too much head space or oversized chamber??? Moral of the story is, Don't fix it,if it ain't broke. Not giving up on blackpowder loads cause I have other 44 cal. rifles I can use, just not in my old favorite 1860 Uberti Henry. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/stepnmud/Rugers%20and%20Uberti/Henryagain007.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Your problem sure sounds like the BP fouling is getting around the case and fouling up the chamber walls enough to grab the case. What bullet and lube are you using on your BP loads? If not a Big Lube type bullet, I would strongly suggest you try one. If not a really good BP lube like SPR or Pearl 2, I'd suggest trying one of those on the Big Lube bullets. Probably not a badly oversize chamber, or you could be seeing problems with the smokeless loads too. Polishing the chamber with some fine compound on cloth wrapped on a 45 caliber bronze bore brush, making sure you polish more back at the rim than in the mouth area of the chamber, might help. Really sounds like something that the gunsmith who did the rechambering ought to take a look at (and you have probably already done that). Good luck, GJ I'm sure you are aware you went from having one of the best cartridges for BP to one that is just moderately suited to BP - but that is I'm sure a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Instead of a picture of the rifle, how about some closeups of your loaded rounds (both BP and smokeless) and your fired rounds (again both types of powders), and your choices of slugs? And, if you have a good caliper, take measurements at the mouth and half-way down from the mouth on your loaded cases and fired cases. GJ Doing a chamber cast with some Cerrosafe would probably be next on my list of things to do to get some measurements of what is happening in that chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Are your cases trimed to the correct lenght? Was the barrel set-back far enough that the chamber is completely formed with the new reamer? Is the chamber Rough ? Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepnmud#33546 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Thanks for the responses. I have used the chamber honing kit from brownells and have almost a mirror finish in the chamber. My standard home made lube is 50/50 beeswax/crisco and seemed to work fine before and still does in all my other guns, but also have used SPG lubed Dastardly Dick's big lube bullets. Don't have any freshly shot empty cases at the moment, but will after this coming weekend. Just to muddy the waters, this rifle also has a set screw in the carrier for a cartridge stop for 44 Russian and a shaved bolt on the drivers side for clearance of the set screw. I can single hand load 44 Specials into the chamber, but still hard extraction. Both cartridges are blackpowder loads. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/stepnmud/Rugers%20and%20Uberti/WP_000718-1.jpg The two on the left are blackpowder and one on the right smokeless. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/stepnmud/Rugers%20and%20Uberti/WP_000720-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Stepnmud, My 44 Spcl yellowboy is acting very similar after a number of years of doing fine (stock innards - no short stroke). In my case, I think it may have something to do with the bolt channel in the frame being worn so the bolt wants to drop down somewhat as it is retracted into the frame, so that it is trying to pull the empty case out of the chamber at a slightly downward angle. If I take a clean empty casing and insert it into the clean chamber, then very slowly lower the lever, the case gets very sticky when it is about halfway out of the chamber. If I point the barrel straight up and do the same thing, I can slowly lever the empty case in and out of the chamber with ease. Put the rifle horizontal again and gravity comes into play with the bolt and/or links and it is sticky again. If I shoot smokeless and lever the gun fast it works okay, but not with BP. Like you I tried the heaviest loads I could (254gr bullet over full case of FFFg and even 777 with good crimp) trying to get case expansion and lessen the amount of fouling in the chamber, but it did not help. The only thing I haven't done is try annealing the cases. But I have 3 '73's in other calibers so I have relegated the '66 to smokeless. Don't know if your problem might be similar, but could be. I don't know if a good smith can tighten up that bolt channel in the brass frame at a reasonable price or not. Some day I guess I'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepnmud#33546 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Abilene, Good to hear from ya. I too am thinking I may have just worn this fun gun loose from shooting many thousands of mostly blackpowder loads, but since I've messed with it so much from original configuration I should just live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Abilene's post made me think about what is now different - It's that you stepped down the case head when you went from .44WCF to .44 Russian. That in itself leaves probably 20-30 thousands of "slop" for the case rim to move between the extractor and the cartridge support tab at the bottom of the bolt. That could let the back of the .44 Russian case slide down on the bolt face, perhaps enough to bind when shooting BP, without even considering the tightness of bolt fit through the frame. 1. Did a new bolt get used in this conversion? Or the .44WCF bolt? 2. Did a new extractor get fitted, or the old one left in because it "seemed to work ok"? Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepnmud#33546 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Garrison Joe, You know that might be a cause I hadn't dealt with. Did use a new bolt, but the extractor does seem kinda loose after I installed it. I'll take it apart again and see if I can tighten up the bottom shelf and or replace the extractor. thanks for the thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I am surprised that I am saying this before Driftwood Johnson does... The .44-40 case is very thin walled. So thin that when it is fired, it basically swells to seal the chamber so there is no blowback as the bullet goes down the barrel. All of gas and fouling goes forward, not backwards. This is why fired .44-40 shells are usually pretty clean on the outside after fireing. The .44 Special on the other hand is a bit thicker walled, and it may not swell on upon fireing to seize the chamber. This will mean that some of the gas and fouling will travel backwards between the outside of the cases and the chamber wall. This is why .44 Special, (or .45 Colt) cases can often be sooty on the outside after fireing. With BP loads, you are probably getting a lot of crud on the outside of the cases after shooting them, and they just don't wanna come out. The .44 Special Henry might be a smokeless only gun for you from now on. (If that means you don't want it anymore, please PM me!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Garrison Joe, You know that might be a cause I hadn't dealt with. Did use a new bolt, but the extractor does seem kinda loose after I installed it. I'll take it apart again and see if I can tighten up the bottom shelf and or replace the extractor. thanks for the thoughts. Step, Is that the gun I fixed the headspace on? I think you have found the problem. I had the same thing happening with a 66 in 38 spec. It ran fine on smokeless but it would hard extract with BP loads. I determined this a couple ways. It always hung on nickel brass because it's somewhat harder, allowing more fouling to get around the case. With those I dipped the bullet end in some grease as I loaded the mag. They worked fine because the grease help stop the fouling. Then I used the softer Win brass and it did OK but would still hang with some. Then I annealed the top half of about 50 rounds and loaded them. They all worked just fine and you could see how they swelled out to help seal. What I ended up doing is anneal brass for that gun and then just neck sized them once they were fire formed. A real pain keeping them separated. I eventually sold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Hey StepNMud- again!!! I sure hope your writtin all this down somewheres! You might sell a lot of books! Hope your shootin this weekend......Your fun to watch!!! Oklahoma Dee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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